Everyone in WordPress has an amazing story about how they got into web design and I’m amazed how different industries translate to building web based businesses. This episode is no different as we get to hear from CEO and Founder of LifterLMS, Chris Badgett, about how his experience living on a glacier in Alaska running Sled Dog tours translated to him starting into the world of web design.
In this interview, you’ll hear about how Chris’s experience with managing a team and being a leader in a seemingly unrelated industry, helped build the foundation for him to being a successful entrepreneur and WordPress dev.
You’ll also hear one of my favorite new revelations as to the 3 main parts to a successful web design professional (Hustler, Hipster & Hacker) and how to be all three or how to hire those with complimenting strengths.
In this episode:
03:58 – Greeting to Chris
06:21 – Lobster history
10:36 – Learning & adapting
13:59 – Being content
15:16 – Searching a mentor
17:07 – Be good with people
20:17 – LifterLMS evolution
25:48 – Money making niche
28:00 – Room in education
31:49 – Trying new things
33:31 – Fulfilling feeling
36:10 – Visionary creator
38:19 – Building a team
43:23 – Common language
45:22 – Respect the other role
48:20 – Respect the client
55:10 – Keeping the “fire”
1:03:19 – Where to find Chris
You can also view the full transcription of this episode below.
Connect with Chris:
Featured links mentioned:
Josh’s Web Design Club is now open for founding members! Find out more
Hey, everybody, welcome into the podcast. This is Episode 71. And in this one, we’re going to hear from a very special guest. This is a bonafide treat style episode right here, because we are going to hear from the founder, creator and CEO of LifterLMS. Chris Badgett, if you’re not familiar, Lifter, is one of the most popular learning management systems for WordPress, I, myself use LearnDash for my courses. But I’m a huge fan of Chris and the Lifter LMS platform and actually have a lot of colleagues that use it and rave about it. So I reached out to Chris to see if he’d be interested in coming on, there was a lot of things we could talk about. But what we decided to do was to focus on almost his story about how he went from being an Alaskan sled dog runner, and you’ll hear more about what that is and what he did. And working on a glacier in Alaska to pivoting to web design, and then becoming an entrepreneur, a WordPress Dev, and then eventually creating lifter LMS because Chris is somebody who’s very passionate about online education. And you’ll hear about when he started his on his path with online education in Alaska. And then he basically, really took his passion to the next level to help other entrepreneurs and educators build their own successful businesses online. And that’s when they created lifter LMS. But one thing that I found really valuable, and one thing I like is to hear people’s story about how they got into WordPress and web design, because it always resonates with me. And I’m fascinated in particular, with web designers and WordPress, because it seems like everyone has a really cool story. And there’s a lot that you can take from their story. And it’s going to resonate with you. And Chris and I cover so many great topics in this. One particular topic I want you to keep an ear out for is he introduced me to the idea that you need really to be a successful web design entrepreneur, you need to be three things. You need to be part hustler, part hipster, in part hacker, and you’re going to hear a why and how you can be all three of these. As a successful web designer here in this interview, you’re also going to hear about a quick backstory about lobster. And if you want to hear about that, and all kinds of stuff, make sure you stick around because this episode, this episode was great. I had a blast talking with Chris, he’s just a great guy. And as the founder and CEO of LifterLMS he wanted to offer a code for all of my listeners. So if you guys are looking for an LMS learning management system, be sure to check out lifter. And you can actually go to my link I have a link for it’s just Josh Hall co/lifter. And that’s going to take you to their site. And if you use promo code JoshHall one word, you’ll get 15% off any lifter LMS product for the first year. So that’s code JoshHall at checkout for anything LifterLMS related, you can always just go to the support chat as well. But if you have any questions, but in any case, can’t wait for you to hear this interview. Now most of my interviews are sponsored and presented by a course. But what I wanted to do in this one is mentioned and really encourage you to check out my upcoming membership, which is actually at the time of recording this and releasing this episode. It is available for founding members. So if you want to get in early and see what it’s all about, just go to Josh hall.co/membership. That’s going to take you to a page where you can find more about it and you will have an opportunity to become a founding member and we you and me are going to have a personal coaching chat where I can coach you moving forward directly. So be sure to check that out if interested. And now enjoy my really fun wide ranging conversation with Chris Badgett and hear how he went from living on a glacier to being a WordPress Dev. And without further ado, enjoy.
Chris, welcome to the show. awesome to have you on man.
It’s great to be here, Josh. Thanks for having me.
So your journey is pretty remarkable. And it’s something I found fascinating when I I’ve actually heard about you because I’m colleagues with David Blackman and Tim strife ler of Divi life and Divi space so they talked about you I think years ago, and your name just keep it just kept on showing up. And of course I’m familiar with with your brand lifter LMS. I do use LearnDash. So full disclaimer, but I I’m a big fan of you and what you do. And again, going back to your story, it was really inspiring to me and I wanted to have you on to talk about that because I think my audience wants to hear more stories about how people get into WordPress, how you found success, the things that you did. So I’m really excited to dive into that. Before we do though. I’d love to find out if you want to let my know my audience know where you are and then what you do exactly.
So I’m on the coast of Maine in a small town called Belfast broadcasting to you from a cabin in my backyard which I’ve built. It’s like my little man cave podcast studio entrepreneur, hangout spot. It’s just a small little tiny house style cabin. And I’m the creator of LifterLMS, which is a learning management system for WordPress. You mentioned LearnDash, Justin’s great. He’s a friendly rival, we’ve of mine, we’ve met at conferences and stuff. It’s a great product as well. And I also have a podcast for course creators and people who are focusing their WordPress business on the LMS industry, which is courses coaching online schools universities, called LMSCast. So that’s who I am. And I’m also a big outdoor guy. I’m a family guy. I’m a homeschooler guy. So just in a nutshell, that’s who I am.
And so being in the on the coast of Maine, I’m a big fan of surf n’ turf. I love me a good lobster. Tell me somebody in the area. How is the lobster over there?
Oh, it’s fantastic. It’s fantastic. It is like I mean, I’m in the heart of it. Like I’m right by Bar Harbor. You’ve heard of that, like Acadia National Park. This is like where people go. And I have the iconic lobster thing. So I’m like, smack dab in the middle of it. And I love lobster. And I don’t know if you know, just to get a little quick history lesson. Lobster used to be the poor person’s food. And they, um, they would, uh, it was it was not it was seen as like, Oh, you couldn’t afford the meat or whatever. So you had the lobster and it’s funny, just the history of lobster, how it’s become like a gourmet and high end premium food. But it wasn’t always that way.
No kid…well, I want to find out more about that. If you have any articles, please send one my way. Because Yeah, I want to find out more about that. I’ll link it in the show notes. And that’s why people tune in to the podcast because they learn about, you know, lobster history in web design. So it’s a nice array. That’s great, man. Yeah, when I One day, my wife and I want to go up there particularly around this time in the fall, I’m sure it looks beautiful, but uh, often hit you up when I’m in the area, you can let me know about all the good spots.
Absolutely. So we’ll go to Lobster Pound, which is where you go to locals go to have some lobster.
It’s called all. Um, so in. Um, so well, you mentioned you’re an outdoors guy. And I think it’s a great place to start because you don’t come from what I know, a tech background Exactly. I find that people who get into web design and WordPress often come from all kinds of industries. And you came from the dog sledding, a dog sledding, I don’t know if that’s an industry or a niche or what it is. But it sounds like you did that for a long time before getting into debt to tech. So would you just kind of take us back then you were I was in Alaska, right that you were a dog sled guy. What did that look like?
Totally. And let me just back up and just give you a brief before that I was I grew up in a college town in North Carolina. Um, I was a I was a little bit bored in high school. And I didn’t really know I was an entrepreneur till like my 20s, late 20s and stuff like that. And and when I was younger, I got into climbing and mountaineering and long distance hiking and things like that. And that’s what really saved me and gave me an outlet. So I went to college for anthropology and sustainable development. And I have a minor in philosophy and, and after that, I’ve moved into the back of my car and traveled the country and just did a bunch of rock climbing and mountaineering stuff. And I just randomly fell into sled dogs in Colorado. I was not accepted into graduate school. And when I got those two rejection letters, I said, I’m just going to go to Alaska and just keep doing this dog mushing thing and I took it all the way so I started I got a job as a sled dog tour guide on a glacier in Alaska just called and got the job. And then because I had a little bit of experience once I had, I found a job mushing in Colorado. And then ultimately, I just went down the rabbit hole I started training with a an I did rod sled dog musher who was my boss for the tour business and then I ended up running his operation on the glacier which was you know, there’s like several hundred dogs up there you can only get there by helicopter. It was a big it was one of the top tours in the world. I mean, people come in on cruise ships and they fly out there and they do the whole thing so that’s that’s how it all started that was that was the dog sled and that that Alaska period of my life was eight years. And that’s that’s how that went.
it’s so crazy man. Like I can only imagine what life was like. Back then, because it’s just polar opposite than what we have here in the Midwest. And I’m sure what you have now and Maine even from before, when you were in North Carolina, like, now that you’re in tech, I don’t know, we’re gonna segue into how you got into WordPress. But do you feel like that experience of traveling and being a little bit of a nomad for a while and living in Alaska, did that help kind of ground you? And do you? Do you like refer back to those times when you’re in tech now just for your sanity? And, you know, like, do you feel like those experiences in those years kind of help you? Today, with just the wild world of freelance and tech?
Connecting with people, it just really puts everything into perspective when it comes to business. – Chris
100%, it was a foundation for what for what I do. I mean, I became a manager in a company that had lots of high risk. Living in a remote environment I mean, like, we lived on the glacier on the ice field and, you know, the weather was always kind of crazy and wild. And through that, I learned the skills of management, I learned this, like people, and you know, when you live with the people you work with, it’s a whole other level. And then, you know, we got clients and customers coming from all over the world. So there’s a lot of different personalities, cultures, traditions, expectations, you know, managing other dogs and teams of dogs is like a whole thing in and of itself. So yeah, it’s the foundation of, of, for me, just that team building, working with clients, dealing with risk and also putting things into perspective. So I’ll, one time I popped a door in a helicopter to help somebody out and there was a guy who had gotten paralyzed from or he was a quadriplegic, I think are because he was in a skiing accident. And I was helping him out. And I was putting them in the dog sled. And I was just like, when you experienced this kind of stuff, and like, they just the amount of joy that that man felt and connecting with people, it just really puts everything into perspective when it comes to business. So it ended up a lot of things in tech, it is easy to get worked up and all this. But when you’ve had like your your life on the line a lot of times and you’ve done a lot of just risky stuff, and you’ve seen some just wild environmental things happen. The business world isn’t so intimidating. And that’s helped me keep things in perspective.
That’s exactly what I was wondering about. Just because I think a lot of I know a lot of industries translate to web design and entrepreneurial freelance business, in general. But there’s something about I’m sure, just the the human element of being in some sort of nature based industry like that, that it really I imagine it does grounds you and like you said, it kind of puts things into perspective, I would imagine now, as you know, as you’re as you’re doing live, you’re running Lifter, LMS and everything you have going on, I don’t know, if you refer back to some of those moments when you’re, you know, in Alaska, and maybe I don’t know if that helps you just kind of center yourself and just kind of go at a slower pace or, or anything like that. But it’s fascinating how a lot of that does translate to to business and freelance. And I know, all right, Chris, we’re sorry about that. Just switch out my my ears there. But I was just saying, I come from a background that is not traditional in any sense. And that was a cabinet maker, I was a drummer in a rock band. And I had no idea how well all those experiences would translate to entrepreneurialship and web design. And it’s really cool to hear that that’s a dog sled runner in Alaska would weirdly translate to what you’re doing now, and have a lot of value there. So how did you get into WordPress in web design? What was the initial jettison of that?
Well? And before I answer that, just one more thing is that I learned just being an outdoors person, not just mushing but all kinds of stuff is I can survive on very little and I’m comfortable in like for long periods of time without a lot of things. And so when you’re bootstrapping an agency, which I was doing, and then bootstrapping a product at an agency, and people often call that like, going back to ramen noodles or whatever, like I could, I was able to withstand, like, pretty low levels of income while I figured it all out and that was totally something I learned from, you know, just being an outdoors person of like, what do we actually really need to stay alive?
When a great point? Yeah, what a great analogy. Yeah, I’m sure that translate to translates to business.
Yeah. And if somebody has not done it yet, and you know, if you have an opportunity to do some kind of like camping or survival thing, or, you know, a Silent Retreat or something like that, it can add a lot of perspective of what do you really need which can help you if you need to focus all your resources on on the startup. But I got into WordPress as I was doing all this, I got really into leadership and management in Alaska. And I, I became a leader inside this company. And I really enjoyed developing other managers and leaders in the company, I discovered, and I wanted to write about it. And I just went to YouTube, and I did a search and this is I was going through all your YouTube videos, Josh and I’m like, somebody like you was there. Uh, I can’t remember who it was like, step by step. Now this is 2008 I, here’s how you, you call it you get hosting and then you do this the domain name, and then you get WordPress going. And that’s how you blog. So that was my WordPress in the beginning for me was just a utility to blog. And for me, it was about leadership, that site is no longer around. But um, I had a site called the Outdoor Tribe where I wanted to kind of riff on Outdoor Leadership.
I imagine some of the personal development stuff you went through, probably translated really nicely. – Josh
Gotcha. I was, I was hoping it was something like sled dog related, but that’s still cool. Yeah, it Yeah, it is interesting. Like when you get started, I think what’s probably daunting for people getting into WordPress and web design in general, is, there’s not a right or wrong way to go about it. It’s really just up to you, and whatever the heck you want to do. I think to your point, though, I think you said two really important things there for people who are maybe early in their journey. One is that you want to look for some sort of guide or a mentor. And that’s obviously what I’m doing. And you have resources to help people like that. And there’s a lot more people like ourselves, who are doing that which we’re sharing our experience, to help people elevate their journey as quickly as possible, and hopefully bypass a lot of the hard lessons learned that we went through. But the other thing he said there was, you know, find a guy, but then also focus on some of the other aspects like leadership, I imagine some of the personal development stuff you went through, probably translated really nicely, do you been able to bootstrap your business because I actually find some of the personal development stuff more important than the tech stuff, even in the early days, it’s better to to be good with people, and to be able to sell them to be really good with WordPress, because you can figure that out, or you could hire somebody to, to help you with some of that stuff. So I don’t know if you have any other thoughts, as far as you know, getting into the tech world. But those are two things that really stood out to me.
Yeah, I would agree on the personal development, it’s always something I’ve been into. I mean, when you become a manager, or leader in a company, like you figure out pretty quick, that what got you here isn’t gonna get you there. And there’s not always a, just because you’re really good at a skill doesn’t make you you get a promotion doesn’t now you got to manage all these other people, you got to kind of start with managing yourself and leading by example. So then that opens up that whole rabbit hole. But yeah, I’ve done I’ve done tons of work just around on personal development and positive psychology person, you know, looking at personality types to see Oh, this is how I’m wired. But this other person was wired this way. Nobody’s right. We’re just different. And just getting into all that is such a big part of it. And it’s, it’s understanding yourself, it helps you understand yourself, it helps you work with other people, like I can work with a business owner, and then I can go work with a really engineering focused techie. And then I can go talk to a creative designer person. And these are all very different conversations, you have to understand yourself to to get into all that.
Yeah, that’s a great point. And I what you just said, right, there is key because as a web designer, you’re working with a few different types of people, not even personality types, but literally like clients versus tech support, if you’re working with hosting and other products you’re using, but then also colleagues and communities around like Divi or Elementor, these other themes and just WordPress people. And then you’re also dealing with like, your personal network of people who know you do web design. So there’s all these different types of people where a lot of different industries can translate to that. So well said great point. And I actually was curious, because I don’t know too much about what you did before Lifter. Were you like an agency owner? Or did you freelance? What did that look like?
I’ve pretty much done everything possible in WordPress. So we started with the blogging. And then, you know, other people started asking me to build sites for them. So I started as a freelancer. And then, once I oversold stuff that I could not actually deliver, you know, I went to Upwork or oDesk, or whatever, and started finding real designers, real developers, to help me fulfill the projects. And then I would just every project I learned something new and got better and better and better, started building a team. And then ultimately, I merged my agency with another company’s agency and we had a bigger agency now we’re up to 17 people. Okay, and then we bootstrap the product out of there. Now there’s a lot of details in that journey. But that’s how that that kind of evolved from me writing a blog all the way through the agency life into product.
Now did that transition and segue into Lifter for you, or how did Lifter come about then
So lifter, um, came about in several ways. One, as I got into WordPress and personal development and realizing that I was not just a manager and a leader type person, I was also an entrepreneur, I kind of fell in I was already kind of a nomadic type of guy like working seasonally in Alaska, I’d be traveling around my, my wife and I, we rode our bikes around New Zealand, I would do the hiring stuff for the for the summer tour business season from different places and stuff like that. So it was already kind of nomadic. But I really fell in love, you know, this is back in the early days of the four hour workweek, and mixergy and online business type stuff. So I wanted to build a, an online business that was, you know, location independent. And with my background, I’m into ecology and the environment, stuff like that, and sustainable development. So I, my first course site, I bought a theme off Theme Forest called Academy. And I, I found the best experts in the world and the topic of permaculture and organic which is like a subsection of organic agriculture. This was called organic life guru. And I built my first business not with not with me as a guru, but me with partnering with these people. And I would, I would go to their workshops, film The film these like organic beekeeping thing, or this permaculture design course and these different things and and then created the website with that. And once I started blogging about that. People actually started commenting on my posts, and I realized I hit a niche. I mean, I’m a course creator myself is what I’m saying. And, and once I started writing about, Hey, this is how you do this in WordPress, this is how you build an affiliate program for an online course thing. I had a company in New York City actually reached out and they flew me to New York to like, help optimize their LMS affiliate program. So the more I talked about what I was building, the more clients just it was like, they would come in from everywhere. It wasn’t a local business thing they do. They were just it was more about the niche. So the smartest thing I ever did as an agency owner was I started at first I’ll do whatever I’ll build sites for psychics, car mechanics, restaurants, everything sure. But once I found my niche, which was also something that I did myself, which was create courses and membership sites, then every then that was the game changer. I had to focus started charging more. And ultimately, I got so there was that part of the story. But then when I merged my company with another company, who, this was one of those situations where I oversold. And I had to I found a developer on oDesk brought him in to do fulfill what I promised I would do. And then he hired me because they had gaps in their company for project management. Because I’m good with the client. I’m good with the the like discovery process and all this stuff, and managing the implementation. So after a while me and this other company, we were like, let’s just stop hiring each other and put it together. They had bigger clients inside the Infusionsoft community, which people they had some bigger names, bigger projects, I could handle them from a project management perspective. And that’s they were all they were doing membership sites for, like coaches and stuff like that. And through all that, um, you know, we were, we were less like, there’s not we were building everything we were building LMS from scratch.
I was just gonna say cuz What year was this? There probably wasn’t that much available at that point, right?
Yeah, this was, uh, this would have been 2012, 13 somewhere in there. Um,
So before Memberpress and some of these other big ones, as far as membership sites, at least, are membership elements.
Yeah, I mean, we’re building our own member systems. I think, I mean, WishList Member and optimized press had been around or whatever, I think but, um, it was early. And I’m not I’m not sure what when LearnDash came out, but if it was around then like, it wasn’t really on our radar. We were just building custom and our clients, these are high end projects. So these are like 30, 50 $70,000 projects. So the There was a lot of custom work. And we were, we could use some off the shelf tools, but a lot of things were building from scratch. And through all that we were just like, we’re gonna productize this. And, and I mean, I’m so committed to the mission of it all. I’m like, yeah, this is if we’re gonna do a product, this is the one.
Gotcha. So that’s a that’s a really interesting beginning and kind of I could see the first seeds being planted there of this idea of having a product like lifter LMS. That is really all encompassing of everything that you were doing up to that point, it sounds like, did you? Did you look at the Did you look at the market and see the opportunity there? Did you just feel it was more like a passion thing with the courses in building lifter? Because I feel like a lot of people will just look to see, can I make some money in this industry, but I get the feeling like lifter is a lot more than just a money making product for you. It seems like there’s a lot of heart and what you’re doing with the mission behind it.
Yeah, it was it was at 20. It was 80%. Like, we’re in like, we love membership coaching courses. elearning. And then 20%. Like, yep, there’s a business here, we actually can make money in this niche. And I just didn’t see it. I saw it as a growing industry. I mean, the funny thing about the E learning or online education niches, it’s been around for a long time. And even it’s just it’s just been ramping up. I mean, yeah, us as technology people. We’re still like the early adopters, like, here comes everybody right now. But we’re still in the early days of this, and there’s so much room for more innovation. So in terms of placing a bet on the education sector and the digital transformation there. It was, it seemed like pretty good good idea.
Yeah. And I think I told you, before we went live, I’ve seen such a big influx, with students coming in to my courses since the COVID stuff hit just because so many people are like they’re not, they’re left with not much of other choice than to get their businesses online. And a lot of people, I’ve actually had a lot of students come from other industries who were doing web design on the side. And then they lost their job or an opportunity, you know, fell through because of the COVID stuff. They were like, okay, now is my time to do this with web design. And for me, it’s been incredibly gratifying because like, this is the this is why I I’ve done what I’ve done. And I’m so fortunate I feel like and really glad that I started when I did, because it has, it has helped me be able to give back as much as possible at this point in time where it’s so crucial, I feel like is to your point, when you got into web design, you were looking for some people to help and I think you said this for went live as well that you kind of wish there was somebody like me to take it to that next level. So I think the online education sectors, I totally agree it’s, it’s just the start of something truly amazing. And there, there’s a lot of room there. And there’s also, I think one reason I like it is I have a lot of coopetition as well, just like you would Justin and LearnDash I have a lot of folks in the Divi community and WordPress community that teach a lot of the same topics that I do, but we just have different experiences. So I have a lot of students that have been through a lot of my colleagues courses and mine, and they get equal as much value. It’s just different. Like my contract is different than my competitors contract. And my experience with sales and pricing is a little bit different than my colleagues. So I found like there’s a lot more competition in our realm than other industries.
Yeah, and definitely in WordPress. And there’s a great concept called the infinite game where that’s the way I look as we just grow this market together. There’s only one you so you’re gonna differentiate even without trying, like you said, like your style of teaching sales or contracts is different. And yeah, I mean, there’s just a lot of room and the more work you do and the more work you’re I hadn’t heard that word before would you say Co
Co Op petition? That’s that’s that comes straight from Tim strife ler and David Blackman when they talked about merging their brands creating a course off of oddly enough lifter LMS. So yeah, I gotta give full credit to them on that. But I, you know, I think a lot of people listening are probably thinking, well, that’s great. That’s really cool to hear. But I’m not a course creator. I’m not I don’t want to be in the education space. But I will say this same idea applies to web design in general, because a lot of my students early on will say, you know, there’s a lot of competition in my area, how am I going to make it? How am I going to separate myself from the others and I’d say just what we talked about, it doesn’t matter. Just be you and clients if they like, know and trust you. They’ll often go with you over your competition, even if they’re more established or there’s a bigger agency like there are so many people needing websites and there’s so many people desperate for a trusted web design person. So the opportunity is bigger than ever for web designers, and I think having that mentality of, yeah, who cares? Like I’m in Columbus, Ohio. It’s a big time tech town. There’s a lot of web designers and agencies here. But I still made a great six figure income as a solopreneur. Just by being me, and I didn’t have to work with everybody in town. I just worked with my trusted really good client. So hopefully, that’s a good thought and, you know, idea that people are empowered with because it there’s there’s plenty of fish in the sea, in web design, totally. In all kinds of industries. Yeah. And, yeah, it applies to the service work, but the product stuff as well. And something you said that was pretty interesting, was the 80/20 thing. I kind of had to think about that when I got into courses as well, because I don’t I forget if I’ve said this on the podcast before, but my original goal was to build child themes. I was going to do child themes and I didn’t know if I wanted to get into plugins, but I wanted to do layouts and some product type stuff, based off of the designs that I’ve done over the years. And I may eventually do some more of that. But I was like, right about to really start doing child themes when I got the itch to do a course. And I had been doing tutorials, and I realized that I really liked doing tutorials. So I did my first course which was on how to create a maintenance plan. And it went over so well. And it was so gratifying. And it was so life changing for people that went through it, that I was sold, I was like, Alright, this is this is my lane, this is what I’m going into. And to be honest, I probably could have made more money these last couple years with child themes. However, I feel like so fulfilled with doing coursework and and having mice, you know, being able to be a big part of changing people’s lives through my courses, that it’s been the most rewarding decision. And it sounds like you’ve probably had a similar journey with, you know, feeling like you pick the right lane to go into as far as your niche.
That first notification of like somebody on the other side of the world, making that order, is awesome. – Chris
Well, I try a lot of different things, too. I mean, I and this is one of the things I really like about what you’re doing is you’ve got the YouTube, you’ve got the podcasts, you’ve got the courses on, you’re trying all these different things, you’ve done the services. And really when you build in public like for me, I think back like I’m thinking back to the article I wrote about how to build my first Arctic blog after like writing like 80 blogs that nobody really paid attention to. They ended up getting lots of comments. I remember being up and I was like, oh, wait is three o’clock in the morning, I need to go to bed like I was really into WordPress LMS. And this is like in 2012, or something when I was writing this article of just the idea of like courses for WordPress and the site and how to do it. I mean, I would lose track of time. And I think that’s one of the great, great things. And then I remember the first time I sold one of our gardening courses, and I got the notification somebody in New Zealand who I had no idea who they were bought it. And I’m like, that is cool. Like literally I mean, I’ve sold a lot of digital products over the years and mostly software these these days. But that first notification of like somebody on the other side of the world, like making that order is awesome.
Yeah. Yeah, same here. I remember the first like the legit first order that came through my first course, that feeling was like, it was just none other because yeah, I had sold like layouts and some stuff. And I’ve done service work for so long. But there’s also something different when you are offering your knowledge. And it’s intentionally there to help somebody, there’s all there’s a different fulfilling feeling than just a product. I get Yeah, your website design is going to help your client your product you create, it’s gonna help somebody but with a course it’s like I think it’s much more personal in a weird way. Because it’s like your brain, it’s like they just pay for access to part of your brain, which is pretty cool.
Here’s a funny one. I posted I did some stuff on Udemy for a while, which is a course marketplace is pretty popular now. I used to do some free courses on there. And that was one of the ways I would get clients. Client leads for my web design business. So I would teach WordPress and Udemy my course they finally took it down because I didn’t update it and it was really out of date. But by the end there was like 15,000 students in it or something like that. But the funny thing full circle was that I was hiring a developer once I was like Where’d you learn WordPress and he was like actually started with you on Udemy I’m like no way
Wow, that’s funny.
It’s just that impact of like setting somebody path or helping them on a career because it’s hard you know to start new and a new career or whatever and if you can or go from beginner to advanced or whatever level you’re at just I with courses I like to say impact income and freedom. There’s lots of it’s not just about making money with courses it’s also about the impact and it’s also about the freedom in your life it can create if you get it get it really get the momentum going.
Oh hundred percent man Yeah. Yeah, the past like the past year has just been the most amazing particularly with family, I have a wife and a two year old and a 10 month old now. So the the freedom to be able to spend time with them and to really like like, last week we went to the zoo on a Monday yesterday or a couple days ago, it was a Tuesday, we just went apple picking for the first half of the day and came back and I was able to work in the afternoon, so, and I had a lot of freedom in the service realm as well, because as a web designer, as long as you hit your deadlines, you can make your schedule, you can set your call times and, and all that. So you have a lot of freedom. But it’s even it’s like 10 X with with the course the Course World. So yeah, that’s that’s really cool, man. I’m curious. So you found your passion with lifter and doing the core stuff? How did you like? Well, I guess the question is, what do you gravitate towards? Do you like the tech stuff do you prefer? Do you like being like the visionary and the CEO type of role? Because I imagine you’re a jack of all trades I imagined you could do pretty much everything. But what do you really enjoy most? Because I think that would help me determine how you took lifter to a whole nother level?
I’ll I guess the short answer is I can’t help a visionary product creator. So I see the future and then I make it happen. I once heard the on this thing about how there’s like a hipster, a hacker and the hustler. And if you can get that three legged triangle, you’re good.
So I heard that before. That’s great.
I’m more like the hustler, the business guy, marketing sales guy and stuff. But I’m also very much a product guy, product visionary guy, but my business partner, Thomas he’s a hardcore WordPress engineer. He’s a hacker, and then hustler, we’re hipster. We’re a little bit light, like in terms of having an awesome design aesthetic, like you have a great design aesthetic. Designs it we just we need to level up in that department or whatever.
I feel like that’s what I’m the weakest on to be honest.
That’s because you’re a good designer. So you’re being critical on yourself.
I guess I Yeah, I did. Yeah, I came up in the design world. Although I still I’m pretty harsh on myself with the design aspect. But yeah, I get that. That’s great.
I couldn’t like I think for everybody, what if you’re running an agency or you’re freelancing, or you’re getting into WordPress, I’ve seen so many people go through it. Now it makes sense. In the beginning, you had like this really open mind like, oh, who am I going to become? Am I going to be like a developer? Am I going to start writing my own plugins and stuff or doing custom development? Or am I more like a marketing sales and I can maybe I’m a WordPress implementer. I can, that’s what I am. I can drive WordPress, but I can’t write a line of code. Like I can put some stuff together. And I could build Udemy with nothing but WordPress plugins. But I could there would be not a single line of custom code in there. And my design skill, I can’t drive Photoshop or Adobe, creative, sweet or whatever, I can’t do any of that. And I make bad design decisions. Don’t ultimately, gotcha. I figured out like, Okay, this is my lane. I’m a Product guy and like a sales and marketing guy. And that’s and then I just use my team building skills to like, part how I have a business partner, and then let’s build a team so that we can do what we need to do.
Gotcha. Well, what a great, like, I think being self aware is really huge. So what a great thought as far as those three big aspects. I’ve heard it said in different ways, but I hadn’t heard the hustler, hipster and hacker because it makes so much sense. It’s perfect for web design. Because I am kind of I’m a little bit of all three. Yeah, I was just trying to think like, when I got started, I was gonna ask you if somebody wants to be a solopreneur, because it is ideally you would be self aware about what three lanes you fall into, and then partner up with people who help you. But you can also be a solopreneur for a very long time I was for eight years before I started scaling. So I guess one thing I wanted to ask you was, if you want to be a solopreneur, and you want to do it yourself, which of those three do you think would be the most important particularly in the beginning?
Well, nothing happens until a sale is made. So I would I would focus on I mean, this is true in course creation too. If you build out the offer, like what is the package or what is the service on that you that just the act of creating the offer, which is a sales type way of thinking is number one, you got to get clear on the target like what you’re building who you’re building it for. What are the deliverables? And they have sir, the hacker the hustler thing? It doesn’t mean you can’t have like base competence across the board like Sure. So like definitely if you’re going to be a solo freelancer, you got to level up across all those you know, study some sales and marketing stuff, study some basic Development Study this design principles and, and, you know learn stuff about like client communication and project management like you can be a well rounded solo act very, very much. I when I go to, um, I do a little bit of masterminding and some tech conferences and some learning communities I’m in. I’m always super impressed because there’s two types there of people like a product and service people there. One of them is like, it’s like, sort of like me, where I have a I’m the, you know, the face and the business and the marketing guy. And then I have a technology business partner named Thomas. So we’re co founders. But then there’s this other type, which is the unicorn founder that like, does it all. And I feel both jealous and what’s not and also sorry for them that like, gosh, they don’t have somebody else to help carry all that weight.
Yeah. Sorry. I felt I felt that for myself. Many a time in the past.
Yeah. So but neither one’s right. Like you can you can be a solo act, or you can partner up and build a team. It’s not like you, you don’t always have to gravitate to like, eventually become an enterprise WordPress development agency or whatever, for big brands. It’s not the Yeah, it’s not for everybody.
I even tell my students, I think a lot of I think a lot of people getting into web design and just being in the freelancer entrepreneurial space, feel a little intimidated by just the entrepreneurial push that tells you to, you know, hundred extra sales become a millionaire in a couple months, like all that, you know, this this stuff that is just, I mean, maybe it happens for a few people, but it’s likely they have a big team. And they have a whole bunch of other experience that translated to starting this site. I think a lot of people or even myself, I was a little like, I don’t want to be that person. Like I don’t want to I don’t want to work 90 hours a week, I’d rather work like 30 hours a week. So I think there’s a big push like that, that we have to be very aware of, and we can take some good things out of that. But also we can do whatever the heck we want. So if you want to be the hustler, cool, be the hustler if you want to be the developer though, or in this case, the hacker be the hacker like takes, you know, really take the lead on that. Or vice versa. If you want to be the hipster, there’s a lot of people who are great design and that’s needed that’s really needed for for people on the other spot. So you can definitely get well rounded in all three. But I know for me, I started as probably the hipster very much into design. Then I gravitate towards being the hustler. The the hacker is the side of me, that was always the one that was lagging like it took. I’m really good at CSS but that’s about it. As far as code I don’t really no barely any PHP or Java or jQuery or anything, I hire that out now. That’s the stuff where it just, it just doesn’t excite me, it kind of bogs me down. So I stick with what I know with CSS and the rest is just Divi WordPress. And that’s the basic design principles. So it should be freeing though, that people could take any three of those routes have a good, you can still have a good, well rounded knowledge of each three, but then gravitate and take off with what you know best because that will lead to other opportunities, right? Both with clients and with colleagues.
Yeah, and if you get that base knowledge to it gives you the foundation, you need to the if you do decide to hire it out or build a team to communicate with because you have a common language. So investing in some contents and foundation across the board is super important.
That’s a great point. I’m really glad you said that. Because I have found that people who might be the hustler, the the entrepreneur like the born salesperson. I know people who have started web design businesses, and they always turn through developers and designers because they were unreasonable, what their expectations are, they couldn’t talk the lingo or they would talk with a client and be like, Oh, we can do this and this and this. And they would vastly like undercharged the project, and the developer comes in, and they’re like a balloon popper. They’re like, well, hate the booster balloon there. But we can’t do this, you know. So there is a lot of problems with people who may be too far in the beginning on one side of their one side of that analogy. So it is I think it’s very valuable. Because if you do want to take that entrepreneurial CEO role, you’ll at least have some some good info with the development side and with the design side, because I know when I I’ve hired some design stuff out in the past. And if I think somebody else might have been like, what it’s gonna be that much to create thumbnails, or it’s gonna be that much to create some featured images. Well, as a designer, I understand. And I know that the finished product of a thumbnail went through a lot of revisions and a lot of different time and mental energy involved. So it’s not as easy as the final product look like. Yeah, the front of like a logo design is the perfect example of something where a client would be like, why would this be $1,000? It’s one font here, another font here and a little icon. Yeah, well, the client may not realize That we just went through, like 100 versions of different fonts and different colors and different, you know, aspects of the design and color mapping and different, you know, logos and icons that we were experimenting with and custom stuff. Like, there’s all that that went in to this super, quote unquote simple logo.
Yeah, I think that that respect is super important. I know what you mean by like the hustler that’s like, oh, I’ll just outsource design and development. Like you have to have word no matter where you are on the on the role respecting the other roles, like I also know plenty of developers who are like sales and marketing is like whatever. But like when you have this shared mutual respect, and really need each other and appreciate it, that builds really healthy agencies and also higher quality product at the end because nobody feels like they’re being undervalued.
Yeah, and it reminds me, I mentioned I was a cabinet maker. So I worked for a tour bus customizing shop for for about nine years out of high school and into my early 20s. And I remember as a cat or seven years sorry about that. As a cabinet maker. I remember the shop guys, we’re just different than the front office guys. It was like two separate where it was like upper class and lower class. And we literally had different lunch rooms. I always, I never liked that. I remember when we got a new building and they did the lunch room for the the office people and lunch room for the dirty warehouse guys, including myself, which was the cleanest of all the warehouse guys. But I remember when they did that, I remember thinking man, I feel like it’s kind of messed up. Like I’m not allowed to sit in the the nice, you know, lunch room, I gotta sit in the dusty one. But it was like cancerous. I remember, all the shop guys would be like, everybody in the front office, they just sit in their chairs all day, like how easy would that be just to, you know, call somebody, and then you could just get to hang out in the AC all day and we’re here sweating our ass off in the in the shop. And then on the on the flip side of that I’m sure the office, people were like we’re dealing with all the high end like stressful stuff. While the shop guys just have a nice little to do list to check off and, you know, make a simple cabinet, they don’t have to worry about anything else. And so what’s interesting, I think that experience helped me in this regard, because I do value both. Like I understand, I’ve always been, I think one day, I plan on writing a book. And I want to take this topic into into a deeper realm. But the idea of having like blue collar blood and white collar blood, and mixing those two, I think is really valuable. And the analogy of the shop I used to work out was was just that, like we really needed to have a healthy balance between the two. We didn’t always have that. But that’s what’s needed to get those projects done. It’s the same with web design, you need to have the hat on for sales, you need to have the white collar side for your sales and your vision casting and sometimes just your positivity. And then you need to have the blue collar side on for like, you know what you need to have that good work ethic, you need to get it done. And sometimes you need to have a little pushback on ideas that maybe aren’t practical, or we can’t, you know, maybe goals that are just way out of line with what we can actually get done. So I think there’s a healthy balance of those two, and I definitely have seen that translate into web design.
And one more would be respect for the client as well. It’s easy to have like, I mean, not all clients are great, don’t get me wrong, but um, the companies in the freelancers that last and the products, the last I’ve noticed they have a healthy respect for the client. It says Same thing with like the blue collar and the white collar blood, like the client blood needs to be valued too. And because some it’s easy as a freelancer as the agency to end up in this adversarial, toxic relationship, and then stereotype all clients that way. And as I’m sure you can relate and you that’s listening, if you’re working with clients, a lot of times you start the conversation with a new prospective client and you’re on the defense or not, you’re on the defense, they’re on the defense because they had a bad experience with the last shop or the last freelancer. And, you know, really to stand out that was like, it’s so simple. But that was one of the ways we got our momentum is like, we just did the opposite. We were nice. We were respectful. We had our video cameras on, we always made we were never late to an appointment. We always said what we did if we were going to be late because of some unforeseen thing we got in advance of it and told him what was going on. Yeah, and that that is another part of the respect, you know, foundation for a healthy company.
Well, I’m so glad you mentioned that because it is it’s crucial. And I understand it’s very easy to fall into that trap where inevitably you’re working with clients, different personality types. Some clients are really organized, some are not at all some are tech savvy, some are not. And it can really it can wear you down and you can become bitter towards client butts. But I always had to catch myself with that. And one thing I preach to my students and quite a few of my courses is to be aware of that and do not dog your clients no matter how easy it is, particularly in forums. Like I run the Divi web designers Facebook group, which is almost 22,000 strong. And I see people bitching about their clients and their every day. And I always try to tell people, I understand but you know, it’s there’s a difference between venting between close colleagues and then spreading cancer towards clients. Because it is a really, it’s a slippery slope. And it’s funny A while back, I did an episode on whether you should be friends with your Facebook clients. And I was astonished when I posted that question in that that podcast episode in my group, how many people said no, I would never be Facebook friends, where as I accept a lot of Facebook friends with my clients, and I understand the boundaries and why you wouldn’t. However, my really good clients, I felt that I was totally fine with being Facebook friends. And actually a lot of my Facebook friends became really good clients. So there’s a lot of value in that. And I actually, when I sold my agency several months ago, and I posted that question out there and I looked for the people who responded negatively or positive, positively that because people who I had thought about maybe hiring or seeing they would be a good fit to do some work at some point. If they didn’t respect their client and just treated them like a, you know, a paycheck. It’s not somebody I felt comfortable working with, or having work with me and my clients. So I’m really glad you mentioned that because you do have to have respect for clients, you also have to put yourself in their shoes. Yeah, like, when I didn’t do web design. I remember a buddy of mine did. And I asked him how much it would be to do a website for my band site. And I was thinking 150 200 bucks for like a 10 page site with updating events for concerts, tour and stuff. And he said like 250 a page. And I was appalled. I was like what why? Like, I just I was doing graphic design at the time, I had no concept of different browsers and screen size and stuff. And now as a web designer, I understand why it was that expensive. And it actually wasn’t that expensive back in that day. So you just have to, you have to think about your clients like that they have no idea you need to educate them, you need to train them. Last thought on that really quick is a while back, I had a buddy of mine who’s the founder of content snare, and they help people collect content for their clients. And it’s the age old adage of web designers were there like my freakin client didn’t send me any content. And come to find out. If you just tell your clients send you content, it’s not going to go well, you have to guide them, you have to teach them your process, and you have to really hold their hand and it can make for a great experience. So didn’t mean to get off on my soapbox there. But it definitely I completely agree, man. It’s huge.
Yeah, a lot. A lot of agency years in the trenches there.
Yeah, it’s through like, I don’t know, I, I feel like, particularly when it comes to sales and starting out, it can be hard to sell yourself. But if you do just that, if you sell yourself over your knowledge and over your limited expertise in the industry, you can get clients. That’s how I got clients,
And they refer each other they reveal their friends.
Refer their friends and then somebody sees their website. It doesn’t take too many clients in the early days to start that referral train. So so that’s great, man. We’ve covered a lot of really good things from you know your story with with being a dog sled as a sled dog guide or dog sled guy.
Technically, it’s a dog musher. But yeah, it’s a sled dog guide or a dog dog musher.
Yeah, that says I like dog musher sounds like food or something. So, dog, dog master guide, you know, you, you gain the leadership experience a lot of life experience that translated to get into tech and WordPress and sounds like there was a big focus on personal development, working with people and then you you did blogging, did some agency stuff, and you really found your lane with courses. Sounds like you were very self aware of what your strengths were and you kind of filled in the gaps to partner with your partner and you hired other people out the passion was there with lifter, it’s very clear that, you know, it was much more than just something you felt like there was an area or an area of opportunity in the industry was something that you really enjoyed and that I think you probably had a lot of know how not even just technically but just the way people purchase courses and the the impact of like knowledge based stuff to help lifter LMS really, you know, become a leader in that space, and you continue to do so. And it’s amazing to hear all that’s translated. I’m curious, maybe just to start wrapping this up. How have you gone because how old is lifter LMS now, we’re almost six years old. Okay, so six years old. I feel like once you get to the five or six year mark, that’s when stuff can get stagnant or a little dry or you really have to be intentional about marketing and innovating. What have you learned in that regard, like How have you guys adapted lifter? And have you innovated? Do you have any thoughts on that, like in that area?
I love the stories and…we’re on this rocket ship. – Chris
Totally. Um, well, first of all, like, lifting up others through education is my life’s mission and my company mission. So I’m just getting started, we’re just getting started. So there’s that, um, there’s that motivation that’s much bigger than money that is underlies all this. Because, for me, and my life story, or whatever, I had to figure out a lot of things on my own and learn all these things and pull in books and podcasts and courses, and whatever. I’m a self directed learner and giving education entrepreneurs the tools to help people who are trying to rescale especially in the craziness of our times, I’m super passionate about it. So like, that fire is, it really carries us through. The other thing is, is we’re, we’re a platform products like WooCommerce, it’s, there’s a lot, it’s not like some products are, they do one thing really well, and you optimize it, and you write the docs so that people don’t have to contact support anymore. Like, and you just minimize it down to your four hour workweek or whatever, a lift lifters not really like that, because there’s so much opportunity, I see it being used in, you know, courses, and the expert industry and coaches and stuff like that. It’s also being used inside of schools, universities, higher ed, it’s also being used inside companies that are training their people and all these different use cases have different needs. And, you know, so we’re faced with this challenge of like, how do we fulfill all these business needs, while not like created this creating this bloated piece of software that’s hard to drive? So that challenge, I mean, it’s, it’s both fun. It’s exciting. We love watching, like, we get like, tons and tons and tons of feature requests. So yeah, I mean, not going stagnant. You got to have the passion, you got to have the community like we’re real community focus, like we have a super active Facebook group right after this call, 30 minutes from now, people who have our infinity bundle, which is our biggest bundle, for the biggest has the most add-ons in it. And it also comes with a weekly office hours mastermind call that I run personally. So this is live tech support. But most of what people are in there for is they’re asking for a strategy advice on things like marketing and sales and other tool recommendations. And I turned it into a mastermind format, because there were a lot of smart people and they’re not just me, the product creator, who had all this experience using the tool and other people adding value. So I it just evolved into this format. So we’re very much like community focused, which I mean, this it’s so fun, like all the stories of all the people who, like Zipper Aviv, who’s a balloon artist in Israel, who got lifter he did $277,000 in 2019. And he and this isn’t a target market. There’s only 1000 serious people who tied a little animal balloons and kid entertainers. There’s only 1000 of them worldwide. And he’s making a six figure income. I love the stories and tell us we’re on this rocket ship. We’re gonna just keep doing this on so yeah, for so not stagnating is and I’ll add one more thing so so far I’ve said its passion is community. And the third thing is I’m my personal development journey did not end in 2014. When I launched a product, I continue to level up both personally and professionally. So for right now exist an example. I’m in a program called SAS Academy, which is for software entrepreneurs of a certain scale, and I’m growing, I’m learning how to you know, instead of figuring out everything from scratch by myself all the time, like I’ve always done, I’m finally like, you know what, I’m gonna go hang out with some software founders that have been there for a lot longer than me and learn the systems and processes, which I’ve been in for over a year now. So that’s allowing me to like, you know, just build out my business better and be build more systems and make more better strategic decisions. So it’s a combination of passion community, and then just continuous improvement is really what keeps it from going stale. And I’m very much in love with my product and my customers and the mission and vision. So it’s just gonna keep going. I mean, I get offers to sell. I’m not interested.
Oh, that’s beautiful. I’m so glad you said that. I love hearing that because yeah, I didn’t, I didn’t get the feeling like you you build it up just to sell one day like it is. I can tell it’s so much more for you than than just a product. You just want to make some money on and then go, you know, back to Alaska sled dogs all day like, yeah, there’s a lot more behind that. And I like that you as an owner are very community driven. I think that’s another big thing too. And honestly, even just a solopreneur, freelancer, you need to be community driven, not only to learn from in the pool from but then to be that to your clients as well, because there’s a lot of opportunities to get your clients and some sort of community with each other as well. I know for me as a course creator, the next big step for me is I’m working towards a membership. And I just realized that I’ve got closing in on 700 students now at this point, and I’ve got this incredible network of people, people email me all the time I basically coaching people for free right now. So people email me like, hey, do you know somebody who does this or, you know, I’m looking to hire this out? Do you know somebody, and I’m pairing all these people up. And like all of my students are now mingling with each other and creating businesses and creating opportunities and creating their own little mastermind groups. And then it dawned on me, I mean, I knew I was going to do this at some point. But I realized, I’ve got to do this now. Like, I need to bring everybody together and have this in a community where we can all be with each other, and just really take it to the next level. So I’m really excited about that. Because I that’s the kind of thing I think for me, too. I don’t want to just see an order come through, and then never hear from that student. Again, I always want to, and I actually right now, fortunately, I’m at the point where I can still manage this. But I send a personal video to every student that purchases a course even if it’s my beginners course, I just hop on loom and I say, Hey, you know, Jimmy, welcome to the chorus, great to have you. And I want to hear where you are in your business. And I have a little template that I attached with it and send it off doesn’t take long. And it’s awesome. And I get people responding back that are like, dude, I can’t believe you sent me a personal video. And that there’s another just a quick hit for everybody. You want to make a big impact on clients, send them a quick video, even if it’s just in the lead phase, if you want to say hey, thanks so much reaching out really excited about potentially working with you. We’re going to get going in your proposal you can hear from us, you know, by the end in the next week or something that goes a long way. But just even with that idea of just keeping it person to person, community, and a human connection, right, you got to have some human human commit connection now more than ever.
Yeah. So Well, Chris has been great, man, thanks so much for being open about your, your experience, I think was really valuable. Just hearing how you can focus on what you want to do whether you want to go productize or whether you want to stay in the service side or again, I love the the hustler, hipster and hacker 30, definitely gonna rip that off. Because that’s great.
I would give credit if I knew where I heard that. Because I’m a constant learner. I’m constantly listening to podcasts and books and taking courses. And I heard that and when I heard it, I it sounds like we have a very similar story. So like, I was like, yep, that’s the framework I was looking for for a long time.
Well, what’s gonna be funny is somebody’s gonna purchase lifter LMS. And they’re gonna say, Yeah, I heard this Josh Hall guy, say, hustler. Cougar, and you’re gonna be like that son of a gun in my mind. So that’s the deal. Yeah, Chris. Well, awesome, man. Well, good. Thanks so much for your time. I know you got a mastermind to get to here soon. So where? Where would you like my audience to go to check them out about that?
So a couple things. If you’re listening on the podcast, I do have a podcast. We’re up around 300 episodes now for course creators and WordPress LMS professionals called LMS cast. So look for that. And then I’m a big WordPress fan, like I started out on the periphery. And then I realized I, the more I got into it, I found this whole community thing and everything and about contribution. And, you know, we started sponsoring word camps and started going to WordPress events. And, you know, we, we put our core lifter LMS plugin for free in the WordPress repository. So go check that out. And take it for a test drive. But yeah, other than that, go look at Lifterlms.com. And we have an academy site there, there’s a free course called the official lifter LMS quickstart course takes about 20 minutes. It shows you the 20 20 minutes to get to like the core features that people really love and enjoy. And then check out our podcast called LMS cast. And thank you, Josh for having me on the show. It’s really just that whole journey from you know, into WordPress, and thanks for getting the opportunity to share it and always whenever I connect with other people, and there’s all these people like us, you and me who have been at it for a while and we’re trying to help and give back to other people. So it’s always good to connect with other people who are on that similar mission.
Yeah, well did. Oh man. I know. We got a call in a couple weeks and I think I’ll be on your show here pretty soon. So I’m really excited for that to to kind of turn the tables here. So I’m excited to share more about my story on your show and, and to kind of learn about your community a little more as well. So looking forward to it, man, I have a feeling this won’t be the last time because we could talk about all kinds of stuff based off of what we’ve gone through. And I know like you said, this is just the beginning. So I’m really I’m really excited for you, man. I definitely hope to work with you here at some point. Again, I use LearnDash. But I’m a big fan of yours and what you’re doing with lifter as well. So I’ll make sure all your links are in the show notes. And until next time, man, thanks for coming on.