There’s no right or wrong way to show off your website designs to clients but there’s no doubt that it is one of the most important parts of the web design process and if not done correctly, it can lead to scope creep and endless revisions and feedback.

To help us with this, I’ve brought in one of my trusted web design colleague’s John Wooten of ArtilleryMedia.com and BreakIntoWeb.com to share his 5-phase, proven process for presenting website designs to clients which have helped him limit the revisions process and speed up his web builds.

His process differs slightly from mine but that’s what’s so great about web design, there’s no “exact” way to do one thing. So you can pull from what I share in this episode along with John’s framework and put together your perfect process!

Enjoy and be sure to check out John’s free training on the subject at breakintoweb.com/josh

In this episode:

03:48 – Greeting to John
06:23 – Process importance
09:58 – Customer first mentality
11:11 – New design fears
12:48 – Josh’s lightbulb moment
14:41 – John’s lightbulb
15:59 – Start with strategy
17:30 – Questionnaire
20.18 – Doing a site outline
24:02 – Style tile explanation
26:40 – Things old school
27:46 – Animations
32:06 – Video presentations
36:44 – Before and after video
39:52 – Wireframe strategy, flow
44:25 – Style tile or mock up
47:09 – Live build mistakes
50:41 – Good audio
52:44 – John’s example
53:55 – Mobile mock up
55:37 – No real estate tour
57:11 – Excited for client
57:48 – John’s info
1:01:21 – Sticking to the plan

Break Into Web special for Josh’s listeners


Connect with John:

Featured links mentioned:

Episode #113 Full Transcription

Josh 0:00
Hey, everybody, welcome into the show. This is Episode 113. And in this episode, we’re going to take a deep dive into a very important and tactile aspect of the entire web design experience. And that is presenting your websites to clients. This is a make or break point of the project that can really make the entire project fairly smooth sailing, or it can cause a lot of problems, or it can be so open ended that it can cause in an incredible amount of what we call scope creep. And it could add two revisions over revisions on top of revisions and different versions. And it can just be a complete nightmare if you don’t do this part, right. And when I say right, there’s not one way to go about this, there’s actually several ways to go about presenting your website designs, there’s no right or wrong way to do it. But the big thing you need to do is more strategy based, which is to kind of present your website’s to impress your clients and to get them excited about their project and to get them excited. So they can send you organize feedback to again, top off the project and help it run smoothly.

Josh 1:23
So to take a deep dive in this, I wanted to bring on one of my close colleagues who I know has an incredible system in place for this. This is John Wooten, he is a professional web designer. His agency is called Artillery Media. They’re based in Nebraska. He’s also a course instructor at Break Into Web, I had his partner Kelly on recently on the podcast, I wanted to have john back on to talk about this in detail. Because again, he has got a lot of incredible processes in place. And he’s been doing this for years. So it’s a proven process. It differs from how I’ve always presented Web Designs to my clients over the years. But we do have a lot of common things that we really dive into in detail in this episode. So I had a blast talking with john again, he was actually on early in the podcast, he was Episode 18. So I wanted to again, have him back on for this one. And I’m not going to give too much away because we had an incredible conversation.

Josh 2:15
To be honest, I think it got better and better and better as we went through, we ended up really dive into the weeds every step of the way. So definitely Hang in there, especially to the very end because we talked about some really cool stuff at the very end. So I cannot wait to hear how this one helps you out with presenting your website designs to your clients. Again, it’s such a crucial part of the web design process. And I do want to say before we dive in as well, john has an incredible free resource for you. If you go to Break Into Web.com/Josh, there’s a free training on there. And john actually shows his process. With this free training video. There’s some other resources for you there as well. So be sure to check that out. We do talk about that at the end of this episode. But definitely check that out.

Josh 2:56
Now before we dive in, I do want to mention, this is one part of the the puzzle to creating a successful process for your clients all the way through. If you’re curious about the entire process for building a site, launching it and doing it successfully and managing revisions, I do have a course that breaks out the entire process that this particular topic can fit right into. It’s my web design process course it’s open right now. It’ll be in the show notes for this episode of Josh Hall co slash 113. If you liked this episode, and you want to know more about the entire process, check that course out today. I would love to help you with your entire process and what you learn and this one for me and john is really going to help you so without further ado, here’s John wooten. We’re going to talk presenting your Web Designs to clients is going to help you out in so many ways. Let’s do it.

Josh 3:48
John Wooten man. It’s so good to have you back on to the podcast. How How have you been man?

John 3:53
Dude, I’ve been great. I got my Dreamville shirt on. Round two. Manual like this as a course creator. As last weekend, I played a few shows. We flew in our old keyboard player who Leah is his, uh, his wife, and she was one of our first students. She was tired of seeing him travel around and play music and produce and work from wherever he wanted to work. She was working HR took our course eventually quit her job. And so it was cool to see her travel with him. And then on Sunday, I was talking to another student of ours dining TJ, who started our course two years ago. And you know, usually Elmo if you listen to Gary Vee or not, but Gary Vee always talks about, hey, during that 20 to 25, 28 year old time frame, that’s the time to take risk because you have no kids yet you can. And if you fail, who cares? You have the rest of your life to recover. TJ had five kids when he started a course married and five kids. And he told me this last week and he’s quitting his job his full time job in June.

Josh 4:59
Yeah.

John 4:59
He wanted to quit the beginning of the year, but his boss pleaded with him to stay on. I’ll stay on till June. But now he’s gonna quit his job and do things full time. So I know as a course creator, man, it just, it just feels like empowering, exciting when you see your students get what they set out to do. Anyway, yeah. I’m in a good mood today.

Josh 5:19
That’s awesome. And TJ is a student of mine as well, he told me that because he’s in. He’s in all my courses and my web design club as well, because he told me about the full time thing. And I knew he was a son of you. And we just had your business partner Kelly on just a couple weeks ago. But listen, this is what’s so cool, man, because you and I are complete competition with each other. But we are brothers.

John 5:40
We are coopetition.

Josh 5:41
We’re both drummers we get each other. And that’s what’s so cool about this industry. And just I think web design in general. And that’s the beauty in this nice, nice drum face. For anyone watching. A really valuable point, just right off the outset of this is, there is nothing wrong with taking courses from two different people in the same industry. I actually I encourage the I do it. I’m in a couple different core, I have two mentors right now that are very similar as entrepreneurs, and I love seeing the different mindset, maybe that they might be talking about the same topics, but everyone approaches it from a different mindset, which is so valuable, man. So that’s, that’s really cool.

John 6:17
And if you do decide to take both of our courses, just use our own referral referral links for each other. Thank you.

Josh 6:23
And I know you got some some cool stuff cooked up for my audience with your with your guys’s courses with Break Into Web. So I know we’ll get to that. But we are going to get tactile in this talk. And this will be a nice time for this in the podcast, we’ve been talking a lot about business stuff and love to entrepreneurialship kind of stuff, I wanted to really pick your brain about something that I know you have a lot of experience in. And I have a very different approach with this topic than a lot of other web designers and agencies. And that is pretty presenting your designs to clients. So we haven’t really talked about this too much on the podcast. So I’m excited to dive into this. And let’s just stress the importance of this. John, I imagine you would back me up and saying this is one of the most important processes and parts of the entire website bill. Because if you preview a website design, well, that can save you potentially, I mean, like half of the time of a project moving forward if you can persuade clients and convince them to understand your design, rather than just sending a link over and hoping for the best. So I cannot wait to pick your brain about this. Do you want to fill everybody in? I want to ask you before we get going for those of you who are for the for those in the audience who haven’t heard your previous episode, which was Episode 18. Can you let everybody know where you’re based out of and what you do not only in Break Into Web but what else you’re up to?

John 6:42
Sure so yeah, my name is John Wooten. I’ve been building websites for over 15 years as Kelly said, in her episode, I’m a fellow a web designer soar meaning I was doing this before WordPress was around on old school, HTML tables, all that great stuff so not to date myself. So I do a several different things. My main business is Artillery Media, I run that with a friend of mine named Jake, who’s also been on this podcast that’s going well every year slow and steady growth up into the right every website we’re adding on to our monthly recurring revenue. Gotta love that. So that business is going amazing. Love it. Then I’m also an instructor at Break Into Web with Kelly, as I mentioned, is the CO teacher. She handles all the business side of the core, she has an MBA in business, I do not have an MBA in business. So I am the technical guy. And so that’s the other thing that I do. And then I’m also a consultant over at Superfly. So I’ve been with them for quite a while. So I’m familiar with Divi very familiar with, with the whole community. And then as Josh mentioned, I’m also a drummer I drum in a two piece pop rock van band called Vota. v as in victory vo ta motor band calm if you want to check that out. It is not a Divi site. So I’m a little I’m a well diversified, if you will.

Josh 7:53
Whoa.

John 7:53
Out of the last 300 websites that I’ve done one has been on Divi. That’s how to diversify. I believe in diversification right there. I’m based out of the mid west, I’m in Lincoln, Nebraska, pretty much the smack dab middle of the country. So I was just on a tour. We did 20 shows on the tours, the house concert tour, this guy named Peter Furler. If you’re in the Christian world, you’ll you’ll know who he is. But it was funny, on least three or four different times someone find out from Nebraska and they’d be like, what’s your main crop out there? And I’d be like, I don’t know, I live in the city. I don’t know corn, maybe soybean? I don’t know, you know, so it’s like, Hey, we have two cities here in Nebraska that are actually legit. And the one that I live in Lincoln’s one of them so yeah, 

Josh 9:58
Man, I feel Yeah, you’ve been in Columbus, Ohio. Very similar, a lot of people assume it’s just a bunch of corn fields. There’s a lot of corn fields, but we’ve got some incredible cities here. And the downtown Columbus is vastly different than a lot of the other parts of the state. So it’s very cool. It’s it’s diverse. And it’s cool. I think that adds to our Midwestern approach to customer service, which talk about a certain way. The the, I think that actually potentially leads right into this topic of presenting your designs, because would you say, this might be a good question to get us kicked off? Would you say this more like customer service first mentality, kind of helps us with presenting our designs? Because we don’t just, we don’t have a hands off approach with our clients, we want to guide them through the experience. Would you say that something that I never hadn’t really thought about that? But would you say that’s true? being our backgrounds and design and everything?

John 10:50
It’s a big part of it. And when you talk about know liking and trusting, getting folks to know like, and trust you, that customer service, hands on approach is going to be a big key to that. And then when someone know likes and trusts you they want to approve that design you sign over. So give them reasons to. Yeah.

Josh 11:08
Yeah, I love that. Well, let’s dive into it, man. So my process before I thought about it, I would do what probably everyone does, which is you make your new design, and you just send your client the link, and you’re suddenly super nervous, you probably start sweating. And you’re like, Oh, my God, I haven’t heard anything in two hours. Do they hate it? You know, like, maybe you don’t hear anything in 24 hours, and you’re like, Oh, my gosh, they hate it. I’m not good at this, you’re probably you know, the your worst fears lie in anticipation. So you’re probably you know, thinking all the worst case scenarios. And then…

John 11:45
I’m an imposter.

That was like a massive Game Changer moment for my business and it really literally shaved hours off my builds moving forward. – Josh

Josh 11:46
Imposter syndrome is real. So that was typically what I went through. And usually, it went very well, there was a few times where your client wasn’t feeling the design or whatever. But more often than not, I went pretty well. But it still was a terrible process I learned early on, because you leave all the control to your client. And you don’t give yourself the chance to explain why you design things the way you did, how you did it, what the strategy was. So I want to share my quick backstory on this, john, and I want to hear how you turn it around for yourself, because I would imagine you did the same unless you just started off as a rock star. But what I learned was, whenever I was sitting down with a client in a Panera, or a coffee shop or something, and I walked them through the design, the response was always 10 times better. And more importantly, they generally had way less revisions in feed by updates. Because I got a chance to explain like, well, this is why I put the call to action over here. And this is why I designed this. So that led me to have this light bulb moment early on where I was like, you know, what, what have I just sent a video previewing the design, and really just walked him through the entire entire design. So that was like a massive Game Changer moment for my business. And it really literally shaved hours off my builds moving forward. So did you have a similar moment? Or when did this idea of focusing on presenting your designs well come come to be for you?

John 13:16
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, for those and then we’re talking about how to present your designs or your deliverables. This goes, this goes for other things, too, you’re presenting a wireframe, you’re presenting a style tile, maybe you’re presenting a mock up, or you are presenting a homepage of a website, or the first draft of the website. And so this is part this whole talk here is part of a training I’m working on that helps designers go from charging $500, a website to 5000. And that it all focuses around strategy, right. And the other thing, as Josh mentioned, is that this will help you get your designs and deliverables approved faster. So before I started using this method, which is very similar to yours, Josh, I would have V four V five, home home mockup V six. Now the majority of our home v one v two, maybe a V three every now and then for something super minor. Yeah. And so going through this, this method of presenting really helps cut that time down. And in fact that a section here called what not to do, and a couple points on that was Yeah, an email with a screenshot with a What do you think? Or even worse is just thoughts? Yeah, you’re the expert present that and I haven’t do this. I haven’t presented to him like, this is your new homepage. Yeah. Like, it’s not even up for discussion. Like, I’m the expert, because I had a thought probably about a year ago, where we were making we’re still making videos, I probably making videos maybe for four or five years. Before that. I was doing exactly what you said. I’d send it in the email. And I would just pray to God like please, I hope they don’t hate it, which is just so natural that we assume they’re going to be like, I hate this. You Now we even know that never happens. So yes, then I had this thought about a year ago, I thought, Man, if I’m sending a PhD, I’m sending a mock up to someone who knows nothing about design. They’re they’re super busy with their trade jobs, especially like a trade client and blue collar client, right? Yeah, yeah. They probably get it. And they’re probably like, why is he asking me about this?

Josh 15:23
Good point. Yeah, good point. It’s like you, we almost put yourself in the role of like, they are either, like you’re asking the client, what you should do for design, when you as a web designer, you should be controlling your jobs.

John 15:38
That’s why they’re paying you. Yeah, you know, I’m saying Otherwise, they could just go, they can just go find a template and pay some college kid, you know, 150 bucks to do it. Yeah, they’re paying you. And I think so at the very beginning of all of this is that this only works if you start with strategy. This, this idea of getting your designs approved faster, it only works if you start with strategy. And I’ll tell you why. So what we do is and and on the page that Josh is talking about where we’ll send you at the end of this podcast, I’m going to have a full training on this for free for you guys. And you’ll see these links. But what we do is that we first share with our clients, here’s the process we’re going to take you on to get this website, though. And we have a page that they can go visit anytime to see where they are in that process that kind of eases them. Like, ah, these guys got it, they have a plan. They’ve done this 100 times before more. On that page, it says our process, and then it says constantly refining underneath it, like which which we’re not we’re not constantly refining it, we kind of have it down. But I like this idea that they’re thinking client, we’re constantly refining this process to make it the best experience for you like, yeah, these guys are constantly tweaking their thing, because they do this so many times. They’re in there tuning this thing up. And yeah, for this to work, well, you start with strategy, because more, I think, above all clients want to feel heard, they want to think that you’re taking your time crafting this website for them. Now on our custom sites, we craft on our non custom websites, we kind of have some pre built items that we use, yeah, we still want them to think that we’re crafting this for them. There are…

Josh 17:18
I feel like building versus crafting is kind of the the to two different terms to get to go in if it’s a more of a template style site.

John 17:26
There are some times so like, we start folks off with a strategy questionnaire. And when we get their questionnaire, which has some some questions in it, and you’ll be able to visit it on our on our website has some design things to actually pick on there, we actually show them some popular websites and, and said, and we even show them like four different font styles and, and you know, if you were just describe your your brand, what would you describe? It would give them some options, you know? So even after seeing that strategy, I might know right away, Oh, I know exactly what they’re looking for. And I could email them immediately. Like, I know exactly, I got, you know, actually wait a couple days, because I want them to think that I mold over this thing. For a couple days. I really took my time we’ve you know, we’ve scoured the planet, not scour the planet. But we’ve we’ve all sat down, looked at this thing. And on our on our page there we have a picture of all of us, like working on a wireframe together even though we never do that. Why would we do that? Right? Yeah, we’re pointing at different things. And like, you know, happily working together, because we never argue anything anyway.

Josh 18:28
But you’re talking about the assir. It’s you’re kind of leading. So essentially, what you’re getting is you’re leading people into this, like you’re leading up to the presentation to where by the time they get to that they’re like, Oh, my gosh, John really spent his time energy and effort and worked at this right. Is that correct?

John 18:43
Yeah. And and in that, and the answers they put on the strategy questionnaire. So we have a call with them after the strategy questionnaire where we go over the goals for the site. And I remember the words that they’re using in those goals that they’re setting, because I use those same words, their own words later on when I present to them, because how can they argue with their own words? How can they argue with the goals that they want to set out? And so if I have those in mind, from the get go, they’re gonna know that man this whole time, our goals for the website, our strategy has, that’s what’s driving the design, not not John as a solo designer that likes to use this certain style, but I don’t like it’s not about the style, then.

Josh 19:23
That’s one of my, that’s one of my top sales tips as well. This could be in the process after you land a client and when you’re selling them is take I call it matching and mirroring which I know is probably pretty popular in different entrepreneurial rounds. But if you focus in on a keyword if somebody is like, I want a site that says clean and modern. If you come back at the very end of the conversation, say like my goal is to give you a clean and modern site and like Oh yes, yes, clean and modern. That’s, that’s what I want. Yeah.

John 19:48
And so, what we do, what what really helps us through the whole entire process is make sure that they understand that well. We use an analogy of building a custom home which Everyone, which not only everyone understands what goes into building custom home, like, generally speaking, but they’re also excited about it. Right? Everyone’s excited to build a new custom home. Right? exciting thing. So I want that I want to be compared to that, because that’s already generating excitement.

Josh 20:15
Yeah.

John 20:17
Now some folks do different processes, which is fine. So Kelly does her her process totally different than mine, she actually doesn’t do. So what we do is we do a site outline. And I equate that to, what features Do you want for your new home? You want four beds, four baths, bonus room, three car garage, finished basement. That’s our site outline, what listed pages do you want? what features are you looking for? And then we can, so that’s good to have. So after the site outline, we do a wireframe. And I that’s more like a blueprint for a house, right? It’s a lot easier to move that kitchen during the blueprint phase than it is after the sights. But I tell clients this in videos, I say, this is your wireframe. Now’s the time to move things around, we’re only focusing on flow of the page right here. You said you want something easy to navigate this page is going to be it’s going to funnel people to the right spots of the website. That’s why this is here. Then we move into a style guide, which is more like meeting with the interior designer right to to designer shows up they show you paint samples, they show you tile samples, backsplash, all that stuff, they bring a board, sometimes it looks cluttered, our style tile, it’s cluttered, and I tell clients that, hey, your site’s not gonna be cluttered like this, it’s gonna be nice and clean and modern, like you want. But this is like meeting with that interior designer, do you like this vibe? rounding it out as a mock up, I do a mock up, which is like a 3d render, right? An architect does a 3d render of your new home, you’re like, Oh, this is amazing. I love it. And then the build is the same. Build the website, that’s like building the house. And then the last when we’re testing and showing the client, that’s the final walkthrough, then we launched. So when clients understand that whole entire process, that’s when that’s when it can be a little easier for them to approve things. Because when I asked them for approval on something, I say, Hey, I love this. If this is like 90 95% of what you’re feeling. Let’s get this. Let’s go ahead and approve this so we can move on to the next phase.

Josh 22:11
Yeah, so I love that. John, I appreciate you being open and transparent about your entire process. And I knew you would because we’re both open books with our stuff. And that’s, that’s what’s great is my process is similar, although there are some differences. And it just kind of depends on what works for everyone as you get going. So well. I have a question about the mock up phase because and I do want to talk about the wireframing/blueprint phase, because I do not do that. And I never did. And I have my reasons why. But there’s probably pros and cons for the mocker stage. Are you doing a mock up that is just a flat like illustrator or Photoshop template? Or is that a live site that you can actually walk them through? What is the what is the mock up stage entail for you?

John 22:52
Sure. And just I’ll let you know Kelly’s processes as honestly that radically different to she has a side outline as well. But then, and but she does a mood board with them, which is kind of like a style tile. Yeah. And then she just built to home pages and Divi and have them pick one. Oh, okay. You know, so it works for her folks like me. I’m like, why would you do that? Why don’t you just present the best one? Like, hey, this is the best one in my opinion. This is it. But she likes it.

Josh 23:19
I err on that side to pick one.

John 23:21
Which is fine. Which is fine. Yeah. Well, because because because because then if I was here, I’d say well, but I still want the client to feel like they chose it. Right? Oh, okay, cool. I get that. And that’s a big reason why I do the wireframe and mock up. And especially the style tile. Kelly’s always like, Why did you style tile? I’m like, because it gives the client. It’s something that that takes me an hour or two to make. And it gives the client something else to approve. That helps, which kind of helps them justify in their mind what this costs?

Josh 23:49
Yeah. Can you explain a style tile is that like, because I haven’t really heard that terminology? Is that like a style guide? Like colors, fonts, all that kind of stuff? Or is it more like elements that will be in the site? What What is the style tile?

John 24:02
Yeah, so they’ll be exact, they’ll be exact on the page that we’re going to share with them at the end, there’ll be an example style tile on there, you can actually download the Photoshop file that I start every one with. And in that download, there’ll be another four examples. But basically, it’s just a nice little, I don’t know, you know, 10 inch wide if we’re talking two inches here, 10 inch wide by eight inch tall little board that has like a mini hero, like you know, a title over an image has, has the four or five colors, like squares or circles of colors I’m going to use shows one headline, like about us shows a body copy shows a couple button styles. And then after that, it’s just either you can show a few icons that you’re thinking about using are usually just another four or five different photos. And it really sets an overall vibe. Because the key here is and I’ll get into this, the key is after they’ve approved my wireframe, and after they’ve approved my style tile with a mock up, it’s just the combination of those Thanks. So they always approve that fast because I’ve already got the colors out of the way. I’ve got the typography out of the way that all got approved during the style tile. What I was doing before I was doing the style tile, I was working up a whole entire mock up either in Photoshop or in Divi and just screenshots, you know, shooting it, either one. Yeah. But then if they didn’t like the font, or if they didn’t like the color, I had to go through and replace them. Even though Divi has amazing tools for that stuff. It’s still kind of more of a headache than just having to replace it in this little style tile thing. Plus, as I mentioned, it gives them another thing to approve, and I remind them in future videos on other approval items. Hey, remember we start out with that wireframe that you approved. And I love that you proved it because I’m I’m right in line with you. You said you want to more email signups you know what I agree with you that’s super important. I validate their decisions, right. And so but I have a couple tips here, though, when it comes to actually Well, yeah, let’s just keep keep.

Josh 25:55
I was just thinking like it, it kind of reminds me of the idea of you want to get a lot of like little yeses to help with the bigs yes, of a sale or something like that. And I think in design, it kind of sounds like you’re leading the client, like one step at a time. So before they even see the finished product. They’re already like, they’re programmed to say yes, okay, we got this, I like this, we check this off. So by the time that I am, I imagine you’re really in a weird what not in any sort of manipulative way. But you are kind of programming your clients to be agreeable and understand every step of the way and have a little bit of ownership in the decision. So by the time they see the website, it’s not a surprise as to what it looks like.

John 26:34
Oh, no and to go back that I never answered your question, but so right now, I’m old school, I still do mock ups in Photoshop. Now Jacob doesn’t. Jake works them up and Divi and sends them that and I’m fine with either way. And then if they approve the mock up, I built the that the homepage in Divi and it looks exactly exactly like the mock up.

Josh 26:57
Do you find clients respond well to a flat image, because I always felt like I liked showing them a browser based design, because if we did any animations are hunters, clients tend to like it gave us some life. And I would often when I did a preview, and I did like a website preview, I would like zoom across the screen. And if we got to like this footer call to action section that would like zoom up, the client would often be like, Oh, I like how you did that. I’ll never forget the first Divi site I ever built. For one of my clients, the first Divi site I built, you know, how do you like the logo, have you zip down the logo would just shrink a little bit. I remember that that was out of the box with Divi. I didn’t do anything. But the client was like, Oh, I love what you did have the logo just gets a little smaller. And I was like, that’s right. I worked really hard on that. But reality is I didn’t do anything but so I just say that I have found that my clients like to see those little animations. Do you find that as well? Or do you feel like the flat route works pretty good for you, too?

John 27:53
Yeah, kind of a mix. So when I’m showing them their mock up, and when I mentioned that, Hey, folks, scroll down the page is headers gonna stick? I show him another site that we’ve done that has that example. Right? Okay. When you hover over this, when you hover this call to action bars kind of going to glow? I show them an example of that. Okay, website that we’ve done.

Josh 28:12
So I wish I would have thought about that would have saved me some time.

John 28:16
If they love if they see what you worked up in Divi already, and they’re like, I love it, then boom, you know, you’re there versus me. If they say, Hey, I love that mock up. Well, now I gotta go build it into it. Yeah.

Josh 28:30
Well, I love this. I can tell you right now, john, I already know the way we’re approaching this conversation. Because we’ve already established there’s numerous ways to do this. There’s no right or wrong. You have your thing. Jake has his thing. I had mine thing. Kelly has her like it really, there’s taking the pros and cons and seeing what works for you. And to that point, a pro that I found was even though I took more time designing the initial design that the client didn’t even see yet. Like I never went through the wireframe or branding process. At this point. I just showed them the site, it did give me the chance to do that preview and like work on some stuff that they felt like I customized for them. So when they saw that hover over effect, they were like, oh, wow, Josh, really like he did this for me. Like I don’t I don’t want to make him changes. I know he worked really hard on this. So I guess that’s part of it, too. But I definitely I just wanted to put that out there that I think we have a good approach on this. And it’s, it’s probably daunting in some way. But it’s kind of nice, because you can implement whatever you want to do for you. And I’m talking everyone listening, you can you can really pull from how we all have our processes, and then, you know, put your own thing together, which is awesome.

John 29:37
Yeah, but no matter what your process is, you don’t send that email with just the question of thought. Yes.

Josh 29:42
Except, yeah, yeah. Except the thought…

John 29:44
What do you think?

Josh 29:46
Yeah

John 29:46
I actually say, Well, I’m excited at the end. I mean, obviously you want them to know that give feedback. So I’ll say at the end, I’m excited to hear your feedback. You know, but that’s after I’ve said, I joke with him in the video. Be like, well, I love it. But of course, I love it. I made it. So I’ll joke with him.

Josh 30:04
Yeah, here’s my next question for I’m glad you mentioned this, because there is a very fine line here that we’re balancing between us, the expert, the designer, having the control, but also making the client feel like they have some control, because inevitably, you know, they are paying for they should get some say, there’s the old adage, like, the client’s not always right. But when somebody is paying for something, inevitably, you’re going to probably get into a situation where you have to do something you don’t want to do as a designer just to pay the bills. Yep, there there is this fine line here where you want to have the controlling aspects of it, but you want to give your clients some control. So with that in mind, how Yeah, I was gonna ask you how you leave that preview video or mock up like, where do you leave that? Do you? Do you open it up saying, Alright, we’re looking forward to hearing back because I’m sure some people could take this too far and say, Alright, here’s the new design, hope you like it now pay us. And that’s not what we’re saying here. But we do want to, you know, expand on our expertise. And I think for me, what I found was to explain why, like and strategy, maybe even more than my opinion, is the strategy aspects. Like, here’s why we put this here. This is why this color is here. So yeah, how you kind of already answered there, but Java, I love to see maybe what’s worked for you. Do you ask directly for feedback? Do you say like, what are a few things you like? Or do you schedule a consult call after that initial presentation? What does that look like?

John 31:29
Yeah, sure. And I actually have some notes for each, it depends on what I’m presenting. So I have notes on each kind of different thing to present. And but that but then I have some, some overall basics, that to know even when you’re making your video. But yeah, so we use Basecamp for our client communications. And so there’s never, it’s pretty rare that I call a con that I that I’m on the phone with the client, usually all communication happens within Basecamp. And I mean, like I’ve said, since since doing these steps that we’re talking about, it’s really cutting down the edits to round one around to awesome.

John 32:06
So some tips that I have for your video is like number one, set the stage have a nice background. You know, right now, I have this background right here. I have things up here that are strategic. Like this book says design is a job. Hmm, wow, this guy reads a book called design as a job. He’s really serious about this. Right? I have read that book actually. This thing, is it a design award? What is it it’s not a design award, but it kind of looks like one maybe it could be maybe it could be you know, other things that could cause that conversation. There’s some Marine Corps stuff up here and there’s some other stuff that I’ve been asked about from time to time, and they get to know like, and trust me more when they asked me about stuff that’s behind me we’re doing this during the day not at I’m not making videos at night, when it’s creepy and it’s really dark. I have my hair you know I got my hair done up I have a I usually wear like a nicer shirt on these videos. I want…

Josh 32:56
Oh wow, you’re going all out man.

John 32:59
Or just flat black, you know this session, right?

Josh 33:02
Or just do some push ups and keep the shirt off before you really want

I want them to feel like it’s a professional presentation. – John

John 33:05
I want I want them to feel like it’s a professional presentation. My phone is on silent. And here’s another big key have all have all your deliverables and your and your anything supporting like I’m going to show the examples. I have those things ready to go in my in my dock on my Mac or whatever your windows thing is I’m not I don’t want them to see me hunting for something and typing in a web address and waiting for the page to load. No have all that stuff ready to go. So before you make your video, get all the stuff. Ready.

Josh 33:36
Again, little little hack on that. I mean, I generally advise against pausing and recording but if you’re using loom it’s pretty Yeah, I was gonna say…

John 33:45
Sometimes there’s a pop.

Josh 33:47
There is a pop sometimes. Worst case scenario, you could splice it together if that’s the case. But to your point, john, yeah, it’s best to have everything well, I learned that with doing course videos, too. That way you don’t make people wait, you know, 10 or 15 seconds for something to open up.

John 34:00
Yeah. And they’re shorter. They’re there. Yeah, all these videos are under 10 minutes. So if I if I royally screw up. I’ll just redo the thing. The last thing I’ll say as far as there’s a couple of things, be energetic and be happy, but don’t, don’t come off desperate, desperate, not fake excitement. Just be yourself. Don’t try to impress them with all the design words that you know, be yourself. You want them to know like and trust you as an individual. I try to identify with them somehow. So if I now like we had a we had a client that was a sports, therapy, sports therapy, and knew the guy was into Husker football and it was NFL playoff season. So for his video, I wore my Seahawks jersey. I’m a huge hockey fan. It was a Friday, and I was like I was like I think his name was Phil. Hey Phil, what’s up sport rep in the Hawks today, man. They’re playing the Cardinals tomorrow. Gosh, I really hope they win. We’ll see you know, Russ, I will see he has it together not you know or if I don’t know anything about that. Or I’ll get on their website, their current one and I’ll try to find something I can talk like I can mention a little bit, maybe something we have in common. Worst case, I worst case, I will mention the weather but not in the bad. Like, what sucks, I won’t be like weather really sucks here. Now I’ll be like, Hey, man, it was it was gray skies, but the sun’s out today I’m excited to go out later and get some jogging in blah, blah, blah. You know, I just like to get them to know like, and trust me a little bit more. The other big tip I’ll say about the video is, for me anyway, you can do what you want. But I don’t have the deliverable or the design up on the screen right away. I don’t do them. You know, when I start the video out, it’s either my blank background, or it’s their old site. Yeah, like showing, Oh, I’m

Josh 37:06
I didn’t I didn’t do that all the time. But I totally did that a couple times to I would show you. So here’s the new design. And they’d be like, Oh, my God, No, I’m just kidding. This is your old design. Here’s the new one. Now. That’s their

John 38:00
10 minutes, usually. And then when I share the link to the video. So yeah, when I when I send them in Basecamp. You know, here’s the style tile, I put a few notes in there of things I like about it, and remember, and some strategy items. That way, in case they don’t watch the video, if they just if they just look at the mock up that’s in the attachment. I still got my points across but it’s not long. I don’t put a ton of text in there. And then I say, I’ve made a video with my thoughts. parenthese under under whatever, under seven minutes, not seven minutes, under eight minutes. Oh no. Okay. So that way yours like so.

Josh 38:38
They know like, Okay, I’m on lunch, right now I’m going to eat, I’m going to watch this. I’ve got 10 minutes, I can Yeah, that’s great. That’s a genius idea. Also, on that note of almost creating an outline to keep yourself on track, you can totally take that outline. And that can be what you send your client because you can base your video off that outline, and then just plop that in Basecamp, or whatever program you’re using to send the video with your details. That’s, that’s exactly what I did, john, and I love that I was actually curious as well, like, with, with the video stuff, because I was, it’s a really good point you made about your presentation with a video of you and everything. A lot of my previews I did with no video of me it was just a screen recording, which, you know, all the principles we just went over can apply to that, too. For anyone who’s not comfortable on camera quite yet. It’s a lot less daunting just to do a ScreenFlow video or a screen recording. But have you seen anything else work? Or do you try to hit anything in those videos along with that, like do you bring up some of those pain points? Do you focus on call to actions do you talk about like, the growth of the business as far as like why you design this here kind of thing? Are there any? Yeah, you know, highlight highlighted items that you tend to go to?

John 39:52
Yeah, and I’ll kind of cover each kind of thing. I have a couple of notes per what you’re presenting. So for example, let’s say I’m presenting wireframe, right. And if you’re not familiar to wireframe, it’s just a black and white flow the page, mostly lorem ipsum text with some key, it’s just a section by section deal. And we base that off of their strategy questionnaire, those features, what they wanted, and their goals with the site. Right. So let’s say their goal was more email slant, or we’re going to have an email opt in right away, or let’s say, their goal was I really needed a site that’s easy to navigate these three main things I do, well, then on the homepage, we’re going to classic, right, you’ve all seen it, we’re gonna have the three boxes, the three things they do, which is going to funnel people to the right part of the site. So when I’m presenting a wireframe, I make it more about the strategy and the flow of the page. Rather than design because the wireframe, there’s no design in there, there’s nothing there smiling, show them any colors yet, or anything. This is all about, hey, I want to get the started, right? I want to make sure that when your customers land this website, they’re going to easily be able to do what they want, actually, more importantly, not what they want. We want them to do what you want them to do. So

Josh 43:30
I will say I was just thinking when it comes to like getting content from clients. It’s a great way to set the precedents of how much content they should send he is. Yeah, if you say client, can you send me you know, a little bit of information for your homepage, they might send you a book. And it’s like, well shoot. Now I gotta tweak this and make sure it fits within, you know, two paragraphs or something. So that’s another pro of that route.

John 43:53
Yeah, so sometimes what I’ll do is like, especially in a hero section, I’ll be you know, I’ll be like your tagline here. And then like, optional two to three sentences here. And then I’ll put two more sentences of Lorem text. And so they can kind of see that and yeah, so that so the, the wireframes for usually most of the wireframe is more for me, actually, then it is for them. Because I kind of use it, it sounds terrible, but I kind of use their approval of the wireframe, not against them in the mock up. But like, Hey, I’m just following what you approved here.

Josh 44:24
Okay,

John 44:25
you approve the wireframe. And we’ll get to that, if I’m presenting if I’m presenting a style tile or a mock up. So that’s the style tiles, the first design thing they see the colors all that or if and then later on comes the mock up, right? So if I’m presenting a style tile or mock up again, I show the old side or nothing on the screen, and I kind of think of it as a big reveal. Like you’re gonna be like, I’m so excited to show this to you. And then I click on it, it comes up and immediately I affirm it. I’m like, I love this. Let me tell you why. You said you wanted this and that’s why I put this here, man. It’s going would be amazing to see customers click on this or click this email and blah, blah, blah. So a little bit of like future casting for them, because you’re building them a tool right? At the end of the day, you’re not building websites, you’re building them a business building tool, and the more you can make them think that they’re getting a tool that’s going to make them money out of the steel versus just a brochure site, the more your price of whatever is justified, because they’re going to make money off of this website.

Josh 45:25
Right. That’s a great point. And look, I one thing I wanted to follow up on something you said earlier when doing the video, is your excitement. And that cannot be understated here, because if you’re dull, and you’re not truly excited about this design, it’s gonna come through in the video, but one thing I always did is typically on every web design project, I was always trying to challenge myself with at least one thing that would get me excited whether it was a CSS trick or something new, or maybe something that the client requested, like I will never forget this client, this realtor in Florida, this this Realty Group. And maybe it’s because they’re outside of Miami, but they just loved this gold shiny shimmer that was in a button, they asked if there’s any way I could pull that off. And I figured out how to do it with a little Photoshop gift at the time before I realized you could do CSS gradient animations. So I did that. And they were just they were like beside themselves with this little gold button that shimmer. And when I did the preview for them, I was like and here’s this little button now is like and you can see how this really just pops out from the page. Now it really your eye is drawn to it. And even though I wasn’t personally excited about that I did, I was kind of excited because I did figure out how to do it. Because when they asked I was like, I don’t I don’t know, I’ve never done that. But I could probably figure it out. So I say that to say I cannot recommend doing that enough. Take those those little things that might seem insignificant if you just bring those up and show some excitement, particularly if it’s like a challenge that you conquered yourself. There is so much value in that. So I hope that’s an inspiration for people to be excited into to keep it real. And just to show off some of those little things that make a design different than your average, you know, template that you would you would get with a theme builder. So I think it’s a really important thing to add in the video mock up.

John 47:46
There was this big one. Well, I, my girlfriend at the time, she was late at night. And she was just like, all I hear is make that line thicker, no make it a little thicker or thinner, no thicker, no thinner. But there was this. The worst part was there was this big circle I had like kind of kind of floating off the page, like abstract circle element. And it was red. And he wanted to be blue. And so I changed to blue in Photoshop, right? And of course on my screen. It changed to blue. And he was like, Oh, stop right there. So everything was over there. Oh, no, no, no, go back, go back, go back. So I changed it back to red. And he was like, No, stop right there. No, no, no, not all the way what was happening was on my screen is changing immediately. But on his screen because of the lag, the circle was changing in four quadrants. And so like each each of the four pies were changing a different shade. And he loved that. He loves that. And so I was just like in my head, I’m just like,

Josh 48:41
you know what, I am never doing this again. I am not happy about you bringing this up because I like I must have some PTSD with some of this some similar similar situations because I completely forgot about some similar experiences where I remember that I think I did this a couple times early on with websites. But I ran into this multiple times with logo design when I would show off an initial design and we would tweak it live at like a coffee shop or something I’ll never forget sitting with an auctioneer and doing the same thing and I was tweaking his logo and I couldn’t even begin to like move something he’s like oh wait, nope, nope. I don’t know. I don’t like that. I was like well, let me freakin finish this and like that. I so resonate with what you went through. And I’m sure we’re not alone and and learning the hard way on that. Yes. Do not let your clients do something live and give your feedback live. And I’m so glad you mentioned that I forgot to point that out. Yes, there was a big difference between just sending a video and then letting them think about it. Because the other problem with that I had this experience as well is when I showed i was i was that same client that realty client with the buttons. They loved all that and it went over really well. But I did the call live since they were in Florida. I wasn’t with them. It was on a call like a zoom call or something. And I’m trying to remember I did it live But at the end, I kind of said like, so what do you guys think? But there was not enough time for them to really think through the design like they were they loved a lot of stuff, but because there was like, I think I did the presentation in front of like three people watching. So they all immediately started to like bicker about certain stuff, but they didn’t have a chance to formulate their thoughts. So I was hearing like live thinking this brainstorming session or that I shouldn’t, I shouldn’t have been a part of in the first place. You know, like they that I needed to give them time to gather their thoughts and notes and then come back for revision. So that’s another what a valuable point, john that’s worth the price of admission for this podcast, right there is not the lot to let them do that live.

John 50:41
Yeah, the last step I will say on the video on to is I experienced this originally to was the first video I made I just use like my apple air pods. And then I listened back to it. I couldn’t stand the audio, the audio I pitched it was an I was like, I can’t I don’t want them to be annoyed with me. I can’t send this. So I went and bought out some headphone better headphones that had a nice mic on it. And I and I use that. You don’t have to use these microphones or whatever. But make sure you’re on you don’t want to you don’t you don’t want to annoy them. We’ve all heard like, you know weak staticky high pitched audio.

Josh 51:14
Yeah, good point. Yeah. Earlier I said you don’t need to be on camera. But that’s a What a great reminder. Yeah, at least make it decent to where it doesn’t sound like you’re on a phone in a tunnel. Yeah, that has it. That’s it that can really deter the project like they can, they can see a beautiful sight and not enjoy it because your audio is so bad that can’t get over your audio

John 51:33
Volume’s too low or so. So you know, the first one, do a test. Make sure it’s all good. I even though my my recording app, I use this one called screencast o Matic Pro. But even though even though I’m sure it’s saved every time I do an audio tests, just to make sure the levels Right. and stuff like that. So Josh, I think the biggest thing, where we can get a lot of these tips in is when I is when I go to show the final mock up. And I think this the biggest key to for me getting those approved fast because that that thing takes me the most time whether you build it Divi. Whether you’re building your first mock up and Divi and you build a homepage and Divi and you screen, shoot it and you send it over, if this screen shooter screenshot it, what’s the past tense of screen shoot? I don’t know, whatever.

Josh 52:21
But as, as we found out through doing a you’ll be Episode 113. I think over 100 episodes in I’ve realized that we’ve made up a large amount of words. And so I think screen shooter that screen shoot will add that to the list of of words that are probably not grammatically correct to the Georgia Web Design Show.

John 52:44
But whether you’re whether you’re working up in divvy, that takes hours, right, it takes me it takes me a while to work up a completed homepage, that looks nice, that’s ready to present for the client. That takes me hours. Photoshop mock up takes me hours to so it’s the thing that I want to cut down revisions the most. And that is why I do the wireframe in the style towel. So when I’m presenting my mock up, I basically tell that I don’t start with the mock up pulled up, I actually start up with the wireframe and the style towel, like so hey, here’s where we’ve been. Here’s the wireframe that was approved that you all proved I love it. I spend like maybe 10 seconds on that. Here’s that style tile, love these colors. This is gonna look great, man, the fonts are modern, but they’re timeless, blah, blah, blah. Now what I’m about to show you now is your mock up, this is exactly what your website’s gonna look like when someone comes to it. And all this is is just, I’m taking this wireframe, this style tile, I’m bringing them together, clean. And so and then I get rid of those, I pull up the mock up. And I say, I’m so excited to show you. This is your new website. Okay, that’s why I tell them exactly what I tell them. Yeah, I tell them.

Josh 53:55
That’s why this is your how your selling really is a presentation. That’s very intentional for the title of this episode. I have two questions for you, john, to kind of pull this all together and wrap this up. One is mobile, do you show anything on mobile in the mock up stage or anytime before that, particularly if it’s a site that’s going to be primarily mobile traffic? Like, for example, when I did a pizza shop website, I actually showed them mobile initially, because they get so much more mobile traffic? Where does that come into play for you? Or is mobile more or less like after they approve the the desktop mock up? What does that look like for you?

John 54:33
Yeah, so usually, usually it’s a it’s after, it’s after the desktop was approved. I built the site and did it and then man, for the most part there. I mean, I can’t think of a single time where they’re not happy with the mobile experience because I I’m, I’m pretty OCD about mobile.

Josh 54:51
Yeah. And the reason I want to point this out too is because my method Sorry, I got my pen in my hand. I’m just like pointing right at you. My method I found some issues with that early on. Because I didn’t say anything about mobile, I just kind of assumed they knew I hadn’t done mobile yet. So when I said I mentioned a link of the live site, I learned Oh, I need to tell them we have not adjusted mobile. Yes. So just look at desktop first, because they are saying a live site.

John 55:16
Oh, yeah. I said over I said, do I say, Hey, I’m gonna guess that I sent a mock up over, I’m too worried about that. But I will say, hey, framework we use is going to stack the stuff super nice for you. And I’ll show an example if need be. If they want, they can it’s an add on, they can pay for a mobile mock up, which to which I will know exactly how to look on mobile, as well, as some other notes I wanted to say, for when you’re presenting a whole mock up or a whole homepage, don’t do what I call the real estate tour. Don’t be like, so you don’t have to shoot, you don’t have to highlight everything. Don’t be like. So up here, top left, we have our logo, we have our menu at the top right? Like they know that they know that’s where the low like, don’t you’re wasting time, just point out the strategic things. Tell them what you love about the design, affirm their decisions about the strategy that you both have worked up together? So yeah, don’t don’t do the real estate tour. And then yeah, I say, I’d like to close the video by saying if you love this design, let’s approve it. So we can move on. Remind them it’s a business building tool for them. And then the last note I have written down here is Be confident you are the expert. They want you to have the answer. They want to know you love it, too. And they want to approve it. Right? They want the site up and running. They want they want You’re the expert they want you to know I’ve had it is some of the more awkward things that are awkward question I’ve gotten from somebody after they see a mock up is they’ll ask me, well, john, do you like it? You have to have a client asked you like, like, what are your site design? Like, well, like, what am I going to say, now? I don’t like it. Now I’m going to say hey, I love it. I’ll tell you why I’m excited for the new customers, you’re gonna get paid, we’re gonna see this, they’re gonna opt in, they’re gonna do this to that. It’s so much easier to use in their last website, they’re gonna be able to find exactly what they’re looking for right away. And more. You know what lay? Yeah, yeah, let’s

Josh 57:11
just say the term that I use, which was genuine. This was from the heart. I always I learned to tell clients, I’m so excited for you to show this off for you to be excited to finally like that. I’ll admit that what that came from the heart on a couple of projects. And that went over so well that clients like that helped alleviate the feedback, because they were like, You’re right. I trust you. You know, you’re you’re doing you’re excited about this. Let’s do it. Let’s roll. So that’s great. So I want to, I want to recap the process. JOHN, got one final question. I’m really curious about before we do that, though. Where would you like everybody to go? I know. You mentioned you’ve got like some free resources. Where would you like everybody to head to after this podcast?

John 57:48
Yeah, yeah, I’m sure it’ll link to it in the show notes. Definitely break break into web.com. Slash Josh. If you go to break into web.com slash Josh Hall, that’s Kelly’s episode, my episode is break into web.com. Slash Josh. And it’s break br e aka now, like breaking the break in the car? Yeah, yeah, I’ll

John 58:16
I’m looking at right, yeah, that’s what you’re gonna get, you’re gonna get a nice welcome Josh Hall podcast, you’re going to get the free video training, which I told you about 30 minutes long. So it’s a little more in depth than what we just went over. But we covered it pretty well here. But you’re gonna see some examples in there, you’re gonna see a Thai style tile example from our own website. And you can actually click on the link there and see our website and see how closely it ties the design wise to the style tile.

John 1:00:03
want to be clear, I gotta be crystal clear. You only get the swag pack. If you buy the course you don’t get the swag pack, you download the freestyle file. That’s one of the

Josh 1:00:12
Free mugs. I know, unfortunately. Fortunately, I can’t send out free mugs. But yeah, no, this is great. JOHN, I, I love this man. That’s why I was so excited to bring you on to kind of share your process being that it’s different from mine. And we all have our own thing. So So recapping your process, quick question in this off. So it’s really a five step right outline wireframe style tile mock up, and then final mock up preview. Yes, sir. Got it. There it is. Awesome. That’s a beautiful five phase process. Now I am very curious, I almost asked this right from the beginning, I completely forgot about it. Now I’m gonna ask it. Do you ever deviate from this process? Like if there is because for example, I’ve worked with some mostly construction guys, in my experience that did not give a crap about the design. They were like, We trust you, man. You just do your thing. And as long as it looks, you know, fairly good. We’ll be cool. So I never took that detailed approach with them. I just kind of showed them the design and and a lot of them really where they were like, yep, looks good to me. Do you ever do that? Do you ever deviate from this? Or do you really stick to this religiously on every project?

John 1:01:33
Anymore I’m pretty strict because if I’m working on a project, it’s a custom site and so their budget is where…

Josh 1:01:34
But you don’t do it for your template sites?

We’re trying to get everything in its right place first strategy first, then design. – John

John 1:01:34
But if before that point, like let’s say I had the construction guy example, right, I would still do the wireframe, because I just want to make sure Hey, I just want to make sure every every piece that is that you want on the homepage is here, I at least need to know that. At least at least him to know what pieces do you want? Like, do you want testimonials on there or not? Do you want this or that? So that yes. And then I could see skipping the style tile. And just showing them like the first working. It’s like the first three sections of the homepage. It’s just like, Hey, I just want to make sure I’m getting started. Right? Check this out. What I don’t want to do is I don’t want to work up a whole thing. And then be told man, we’re just, we’re just not feeling it. Can you show us something else? Yeah. And so that’s why I have all these things that they approve, because by the time the mock up comes around, they don’t have really, they, for them to just surprise. Well, not gonna be surprised. And for them to move something. It’s they know what’s on them. Okay, cuz like I said, if you try to move your kitchen and blueprint phase easy, try to move your kitchen after the house is built. It could be done, right? I tell them this tip like it can be done. But it’s going to cost a lot more resources can take a lot more time. And that’s what we’re trying to prevent. We’re trying to get everything in its right place first strategy first, then design. And we’ll strategies part part design. But so yeah, and like I said, Kelly does things totally different than I do. But I think what you can really take away from this training is just all the tips on how to present it like you are presenting to them. You’re the expert, you’re, you’re telling them. This is your new website and just try it. Try it for a few projects, try telling the clients I’m super excited to show you your new website. This is it. Let’s do this. Yeah, sometimes I just say let’s do this. I don’t even ask them. Sometimes I ask them what they think I just say, let’s do this. JOHN, send, you know, and usually

Josh 1:03:32
the feedback Either way, it’s best, right?

John 1:03:35
And, and your days of V three v four v five v six are going to be over I promise you beautiful,

Josh 1:03:41
What a way to end a john man, thanks so much for dishing out your process. Again, we’ll link it all in the show notes break into web slash or.com slash Josh great stuff there. And I do thank you for as always being so open and transparent about what’s worked for you and you guy, man. And, man, we’ll we’ll do number three here at some point in the future is oodles of stuff we can continue to talk about. So let’s keep at it, man.

John 1:04:01
Let’s do it. Cheers, y’all.

Josh 1:04:03
Thanks, john.

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