What do you think of when you hear the term “copywriting?” Personally, I think of MadMen and a copywriter creating ad lingo in the 60’s. But the reality is, copywriting is in virtually everything from website headings and text, to emails, to social media posts, landing pages and more.
And whether you realize it or not, you’re dealing with copywriting as a web designer on a daily basis. Even if it’s on a very basic level, like taking client content and optimizing it for website conversion and SEO.
To help us understand copywriting on a basic level and to give us to industry tips and trade secrets, I’ve brought in professional copywriter and host of the Storytelling Secrets podcast, Jules Dan, who shares his top tips and tricks for effective copywriting that we as web designers can apply to website copy, emails, social media posts and more!
Even if you don’t want to venture too far down the “copywriting” spectrum of services, it’s crucial that you at least know the basics to help your websites convert. And that’s exactly what this episode will help you with.
In this episode:
00:02 – Intro & announcements
04:02 – Greeting to Jules
05:34 – A little history
08:55 – Words sell a story
10:53 – Showcasing your values
12:02 – Make stories your own
12:58 – What is copywriting
16:04 – Being conversational
18:31 – Strategy of story
19:44 – Eliminate confusion
20:25 – Call to action clarity
24:14 – Landing page tips
25:30 – Conversion optimization
26:06 – Video in conjunction
26:58 – Key to email tagging
30:16 – Finding the pain points
33:36 – Art of listening
37:56 – The email launch
44:11 – Integral about deadline
47:15 – Discount head games
50:00 – discount or devalue
50:58 – Fast action bonus
52:00 – Using testimonials
53:27 – Good email titles
56:15 – Fear or curiosity
58:17 – Congruent lines
1:00:50 – Where to find Jules
1:02:56 – Final thoughts
Connect with Jules:
Featured links mentioned:
Episode #128 Full Transcription
Welcome in friends to Episode 128, where we’re going to be diving into a topic that I am personally not too well versed in. Well, actually, I didn’t think I did this service that much, but come to find out I actually did it a lot. And I was doing it for free way too often, which is copywriting. And this is something that all web designers are generally doing on some level. And we’re often not charging for it. And some of us might have a lot of skill in in this area of copywriting and creating headings that engage in creating really good copy on websites. And some of us might want to scratch the surface. But there’s a time we want to hire that out.
In this episode, we’re going to talk copywriting tips for web designers to help you no matter what level you are with copywriting. And then you’re going to find out how far you want to go before you eventually may want to partner with a copywriter. And for this talk, I’m very pleased to bring in a guest from down under Jules Danylak, who is a great copywriter. He’s somebody who’s new on the entrepreneurial scene. I actually was on his podcast more recently. And I found out a little more about what he did. And I was like, man, I want to bring you in on my podcast because we haven’t really talked too much about copywriting here. And it’s so important and I don’t know about you. But when I think about copywriting, I think about kind of like the Mad Men era of like copy for ads and stuff. But the reality is, copywriting is any text, whether it’s an email, whether it’s something on a homepage, whether it’s a blog post, it’s all copywriting.
So, again, as web designers, whether you like it or not, you’re going to be dealing with it, you don’t have to go too far down into the rabbit hole and be a copywriter. But you definitely have to at least know how to write good engaging headings, and you got to know how to format text. And there’s just a lot of power and learning good copywriting in it is something that’s going to take time and I’ve learned a lot about you know, writing emails and headlines that sell and this applies to call to actions as well. But I wanted to at least empower you with the basics of copywriting. And that’s exactly what we’re gonna do in this episode.
Jules is really a wealth of knowledge when it comes to copywriting, particularly when it comes to email. So you’re going to find out a lot in this episode about how to write emails and how to engage your perfect clients and how to write copy for websites. I can’t wait to hear what kind of takeaways you have from this one because I definitely learned a lot and it was a fun, engaging talk. So I’m super excited for you. Now, when it comes to copywriting. copywriting can be paired perfectly, if it is with good design, because a lot of people who are really good with copywriting may have a very text heavy website that isn’t actually the best at design. And if you can couple that with really good design, and then take your copywriting to the next step with a really good conversion based design, who you are going to have a very, very powerful conversion machine in your website. And you can translate all those, there’s knowledge and tips for your clients as well.
And if that’s you, if you want to get better at design to pair that with copywriting, I’d love to welcome you into my design course my website design course is open right now for you. We cover basic design through design principles for websites. And then we talk most importantly about conversion based design. And copywriting in text is a big, big part of that. But it’s look, copy is really important, but it’s got to look nice, it also has to engage and that’s why I would love to help you with the design side of things along with copywriting. So check that out today if interested. And now let’s shift our focus to copywriting. We’re gonna hear from somebody who knows a lot about this topic and is really engaging and what a fun conversation we had. Here’s Jules, Dan, let’s talk copywriting tips for you. So you can make your Web Designs pop with text.
Jules, welcome on to the podcast, man. So great to have you on,
Josh, It’s really, really nice to be here. It’s also really nice to be on the other side of the mic as well, because I normally just do all the interview. So it’s a pleasure to be here. Thank you.
Yeah, you had me on your podcast, which I think this will come out shortly before my interview on your podcast will come out. This will come out probably mid August 2021. And I have to say I want to acknowledge that I’m so glad you’re able to do this with me because we had to reschedule. My internet was being wacky last week. And I felt so bad. I had to tell you I had to reschedule I made you get up super early and you’re up super early right now for us. It’s like 5:30am your time, right?
It is 530 and I was just saying to Josh before though, I’m crazy because I had had a play volleyball on Mondays and I got home in quarter to 12 and then I’m like, Alright, five hours late. Let’s do it.
Let’s do it. Well, it doesn’t look like you had five hours. So thanks, man. I really, really appreciate this. So we’re gonna have some fun because we’re going to talk about copywriting. This is something I really haven’t really got it too far into in the podcast so far. And quite frankly, I didn’t really understand the value of copywriting. I didn’t understand really what it was. And also didn’t understand what I should add as far as copywriting into my business. And over the years, I’ve realized how important it is. So I’m really excited to pick your brain as a copywriter. And I got some fun questions for you. So before we dive in, though, do you want to let everybody know where you’re based out of? And I guess if you could sum up what you do?
Okay, I’m based out of Melbourne, Australia. Do you want to hear the story how I got there, or just what I what I do for a living?
Yeah. Give us a quick snapshot of kind of your you know, how you got into copywriting. And then maybe that’ll segue to kind of what you do now.
Yeah, I love telling a story cuz I don’t know about you. But COVID was trying transformative for me. Because I was a personal trainer for five years, I had my degree in exercise, sports science, I thought I was going to be a strength and conditioning coach. But then what happened was that COVID hit, and I was made redundant. I had a few marketing side hustles on the side, I enjoyed writing. And at the time, I was doing Upwork emails for five bucks an hour, just to build a profile. And this was in early 2020. Then obviously, everything went to shit. Oh, sorry, I can’t swear everything.
No, you can ship sent away, you can swear
I’d take a little principle, apply it to my clients get a result, get slightly better client – Jules
To shit in 2020, we can all agree on that it was pretty bad. And I had no job. So I had to just go all in on email copy. And then I listened to a bunch of different podcasts read bunch of books, there was one podcast in particular that I really liked. It was another Aussie copywriter. And I picked up all little principles from him. His name is Pete Godfrey. And I’d take a little principle from the podcasts, apply it to my clients get a result, get slightly better client, a slightly better client build up my profile on Upwork. And then from there, I just use my experience and got clients through LinkedIn. That was a better step up from Upwork, in my opinion, yeah. And then I invested all my profits into hiring Pete one on one to really accelerate my copywriting that was the best investment ever best decision ever. And within a few months, I got a six figure launch working with Pete working for so I got that six figure launch for another client and they had 2000 people on their list from out of 150k was just with 12 emails. And that really blew my mind. And I really realized that one, I’m really good at this too. This is a lot of fun. And three, you know copywriting works. And that’s why I’m really pumped to talk about you today.
Well, that’s awesome, man, I and we are going to talk about that email about how you help somebody with a relatively small list, have a six figure launch with an email campaign, I do think it’ll be nice to kind of build the foundation and get the groundwork. Before we get to that point. That’s why I love your story. Because it’s so it’s so new, it’s so relevant. And you hit on two things right there that I want to encourage everyone listening to apply, particularly because you’re listening to this podcast, you’re likely going to get quick, actionable tips. And my recommendation is to apply one thing at a time immediately. And it’s this it’s progress that really builds momentum and helps combat imposter syndrome. And you investing in a coach like that is huge man. So that’s awesome. What a great testament to the power of gaining a little bit of knowledge, applying and then investing in yourself to level up as quickly as possible. I love that man. I want to start off with a kind of a statement that I’ve heard more and more. And I’ve heard this said different ways. And I do agree now. And that is that images and visuals engage. But words sell. Do you think that is a true or false statement?
With ok image engage, words sell…Yes. So images, whether they’re static or moving? Obviously, they grab attention. And if you need to backup a point, then great. I think it’s engaging. But if you want to influence someone and you want to do it correctly, then nothing’s better than a bit of a story. So that’s where the words come in.
Well, the Okay, the great story is that’s perfect. I think that’s a great segue to the power of words, particularly when it comes to a story. And another perfect segue to your podcast, which I was gonna ask you about later which you had me on but I was curious about the name of your podcast because it’s called Storytelling Secrets. It’s not like copywriting one on one. It’s it’s storytelling, which I have realized and I’ve heard a lot of my mentors talk about the power of story. So it’s something that I’m really serious about implementing better and all of my stuff. So I love that you said that because that kind of the follow up question I was gonna have for you was that in the in the day and age of visuals where everything is in an Instagram world and everything is visual. And there’s colors and we’re inundated with great design and visuals. I guess the question is, are words still important? And I would back you up and saying Absolutely. And particularly when it comes to a story, you can kind of tell a story with visuals. But you can really do it with words, right?
Yeah, there’s something about reading good fiction that makes people just want to get lost in the words. It’s different from a you can get lost in a movie. And people would argue that video is better, because obviously, it is better, because it’s easier to get a response from someone and emotional response. But with words, it’s, it’s a bit harder to do it. However, once you do get a bit more, more persuasive and more influential with your writing, you’re good at telling stories, you’re good at maybe injecting humor into your brand. And you’re good at showcasing your values and what you stand for and who’s who’s the enemy that you’re standing up for, for your tribe. I think that’s where you can really stand out with your words, what do you what do you reckon?
Well, it’s funny, you said, particularly when it comes to like a movie, because I was thinking about how many people say they hate movies based off of books. And I think that’s because when you read a book, it’s your own imagination that’s painting the picture. And so if you have something in your mind, and then you go to a movie, and it’s visually much different than what you had, in your mind, it automatically can make it off putting. Now I know there’s…
Like a bad first date.
Yeah, yeah, like, you might have this vs Exactly. Like, you might have this visual what this is gonna be like, and it’s, it’s quite different, or it’s not what you expected. Or it’s not what you like, because you felt like what you had, in your mind, was what it should be. And I I know, there’s been amazing movies based off of books. But there’s also I think a lot of movies that have maybe not done books justice, or that are so different. It like ruins the book and the vision that people had in their mind. So that was the best analogy I could think of with the power of words, and stories and how you make them your own when you visualize them. I do think this is really important in business too, because I could, from my marketing perspective, I can show you know where I’ve come from, and my family and the kind of lifestyle I have now with visuals, and I do but what’s more powerful is my story and how people can make it their own. And they can visualize their own path and what it will look like for them. That’s where the power is. And I know that’s where the words come into play.
So I think when it comes to copywriting This is tricky, because I guess one question I have for you is what is copywriting? Like, I don’t know anything about where that word came from? I don’t know, is copywriting technically everything? Like, is copywriting on your website and your social media posts in your email? like is that all copywriting?
That’s a good question. I don’t have the exact Google definition but I think the best way to describe it is words that are used to drive an action, or to influence or to persuade someone to do something. So that could be on the captions of your YouTube. Or it could be on the headline of your landing page to get them to opt in. Or it could just be, for instance, an email to click on a blog. So all of them are trying to get you to do something, maybe it’s to leave a review. But it’s all asking you to do something, maybe it’s not always asking you to do something, or maybe it’s just persuading you to, to come onto your side of your thinking. So it’s one of the things you don’t always have to sell. Sometimes you just selling your influence, you just want them to believe in what you believe. And that’s what builds a tribe. So it’s not always about selling stuff. But I hope that answers your question.
Well it does. I think you got to the kind of the meat of what it is. That was something I was thinking about was at the core what is copywriting? It is to help somebody move from a state of questions or problems to a solution right at the core. I mean, I guess that’s what all marketing does, whether it’s a website, or a social media post or a training it all should lead somewhere, someone somewhere or something. And I was curious about that, because when I think about the term copywriter, I often think about like the 60s one of my my wife and I’s favorite shows is mad men, which for anyone who doesn’t know this show it takes place in like the Advertising Age in the 60s. And one of the some of the most important characters are copywriters and they are doing the words for ads and stuff like that.
So my mind automatically goes there but as I’ve grown as an entrepreneur and as I started this brand, as you know a little bit now Jolson’s interviewing me, you know, I, you know, went full time with this endeavor, where I teach and what I realized is I’m actually like a large percentage of my job now as a copywriter, like I do all my website verbiage. I don’t have help yet with copywriting. It’s something I’m considering moving forward, but I’ve intentionally done it myself to learn about it and to keep it real since it’s a personal brand on my website, all my emails, all my social media posts, all my YouTube, you know, descriptions stuff, it’s all me it’s all me except from for Kam, my VA, who does outlines and stuff now. I say that to say copywriting is a huge part of my life. And I think web designers it’s actually a much bigger part of your life than you realize. What are some areas you think that people are assuming or unassumingly doing copywriting, especially for web designers.
Whether unassumingly, okay, when you’re writing an email to a client, and believe it or not, you need that you need to have them on your side, you can’t just be a robot in your response, you need to let them in the loop. Need to sell them again after you sell them to make them feel comfortable that does that make sense? I’m sure you understand the importance of client management. Copy in your blog posts, you know, how conversational are you? Are you just regurgitating facts? Are you injecting your personality into the blog post? So people want to come back? So it sounds different. But it’s interesting how you said, Josh, how you started out doing everything yourself with all the copy? I think that’s a really good first step. If someone’s doing web design, not only you’re going to save money, but you’re going to be able to know if you do hire a copywriter in the future. This is crap like this, you know what’s good and what’s not.
Or your client sends text and copying is just terrible, right?
Yeah, over the client tries to say no, I don’t like this. Let’s do this instead. And the entire I don’t think that’s going to get any response. But yeah, kudos to you, man for learning it. I really like that. And the other thing I was gonna say as well with with, with copy is I’m running in blank here too early in the morning.
That’s totally fine.
Yeah, but next question, I’ll come back to you about.
No problem right. Now. And again, it’s 530 for you. So I totally understand. But on that idea of like, copy and doing it yourself. Yeah, like you were talking about, I do think it’s very valuable to do it yourself. Because no matter what it is, you can be trained, but at the end of the day, just trying it out and learning best practices and learning what works, and learning what doesn’t work. That’s the power of copywriting. So, a kind of a follow up question on this. Jules is for web designers who are working with clients. You just hit it, it’s emails, you’re talking with the client, but it’s also the text that goes on websites. And for me, I did not even think about that early on my first few web site designs were all about the best design I could possibly do. The words on the site got the least attention. So I guess that’s the next thing I want to dive into is like, How important are the words on websites? And how is we as web designers? How can we get better at that?
Well, you know, a friend Wes McDowell, right? Yeah. So he’s all about creating the words and being not just a web designer who gives a pretty brochure, but you need to be able to tell a story, you need to be able to hook the ideal customer in. And if you can promise if you’re a web designer, and you can promise clients Look, this isn’t just going to look nice, it’s not just going to function. Well. This is going to be something a tool, an asset that you can, when a customer comes, we’re actually we have a strategy to take them from a visitor to a booked call. I think that’s really powerful. I hope that answers your question. But yeah, if you’re if you’re just starting out, it probably be a good idea to understand why are we putting these words here? You know, what, what’s the strategy to take someone from that visitor to a booked call? I think that’s a really powerful skill set on top of just designing a website.
Yeah, I know. It’s interesting. I’ve just recently did a training on my top conversion tips. And one of them is assertive language instead of passive language for call to actions. And what I mean by that is, you have typically you would say, like, learn more or read more, or you know, find out more or even contact us can be quite passive because it doesn’t really explain what is contact us mean, does that mean book a call, sign up for a service? Does that mean ask a question? Like, I think that’s where the importance of being intentional about your words, and copywriting is key. And to your point, man, understanding the journey and understanding what do you want somebody to do on this website? That’s how you craft your words, right? Like you really have to have the mission first, and then the strategies come into play.
Yeah. And then it’s like all about eliminating confusion because it’s all my gosh, I know you would know this really well, Josh, when you land on a website and it’s got 10, five different tabs. And then each tab has five different sub menus and as a person you like what the hell Do I do now? Where do I go? Yeah, so it’s all about making it as easy as possible. Whether it’s I’m not sure how to do it. I’m not. I’m not the expert on, you know, web site design and the journey but it but you can tell your website when you see it clearly says, Ah, are you this person or this person? Or what are you probably struggling with this problem. And then might lead you to a specific page or not.
Yeah, that’s, that’s the funnel, I call it like a lot of people think funnels are just like landing page funnels. But I view it very different. I view it as your you’re like starting a journey for the website user, and you want to help them get to where they should go. So this is really really common what you just said Jules for, for web designers, because I often see web design freelancers, and their website will mix like five different call to actions. In one, it’ll say, like, caught, like, they might have a button that says, contact me, they might have a main call to action that says, Get started, they might have another call to action that says Like, learn more or, or, you know, something like that. And there’s like all these conflicting call to actions. And one thing I’ve really been big on, and a lot of my students have seen success with, is to say exactly what that call to action is like, if you want people to get a quote on your website, say, get a quote, don’t say contact, you can say contact us with like maybe a different page or something, if it’s their questions, but make a very clear distinction, even like, what is this contact form for? Is this a get a quote form? Or is it a contact form? Those are different.
So I think that goes back to the idea of words, and telling people like exactly what they should do to eliminate confusion. And I know this is really tricky for businesses that have like different call to actions. For example, like a realtor, realtors are generally working with two different people that are 50/50 of their business, it’s a buyer or it’s a seller. So the verbiage is going to be different, which is where I think having like a very clear funnel, if you’re a buyer looking to buy click here, if you want to sell click here, and then you go right formation, right?
Yeah, that’s right. Like I was saying at the start. So having that, especially if they have if you have to have two avatars. Ideally, you don’t want to have to, but in that situation Yeah, have you seen it? Where I’m pretty sure I’ve seen heaps of different things where as soon as you land on the website, the only two things you can do collect, click A or click B, and the sort of that’s directs you.
Exactly. That’s exactly what we did with my family’s realtor. I built her site years ago. And we’ve we’ve tweaked it over time. And one thing that really helped is, I think I still had to call to actions initially, but it was a lie splice, like too much information in the beginning. And I think I remember I think the sell button was bigger than buy. And then what I realized after talking with her more is that she actually wanted more buyers ideally than seller. So yes, or no flip flip flop that she wanted more sellers than buyers. So what we did is we did exactly that we had like you go to that site. Now. It’s the Barker, team realtor. If anyone wants to Google that, check it out. One side is buyers, one side of sellers, then you go. That starts the journey. So yeah, it’s almost like almost like a little landing page before you get into the site. And there’s a bunch of different ways to go about that. But it is a really valid point. When you have different avatars, like you said, and man, I struggle with this right now, because I’ve realized, I’ve essentially got three. And this is kind of what I’m working on my copy for. And I hope this is a good case study for everybody that to think about your customer base. I’ve got people who want to learn web design, just the technical side of things, I’ve got people who want to start their own business. And then I’ve got people with an existing business that really want to take it to six figures and beyond. So these are pretty different type of customer segments. But I’m still Luckily, I’m able to appeal to all of them right now. But I’m kind of working on the type of content that I should do for each and and to better group them into the type of content that I can repurpose to them. So all goes back to copywriting. Like, how am I going to, you know, display that that’s what I’m working on?
Yeah, well, it’s interesting, you say that, I’m pretty sure Pat Flynn had an episode on email marketing, you might wanna check it out. And he talks about segmenting his audience because obviously, he’s got a lot of beginners he’s got some intermediates and a few more people who are advanced. And he talked about some under don’t quote me on what episode but he had an email marketing episode, I think with Rick Mulready, where he spoke about tagging. So that might be something interesting to look into. But also, while we’re on the topic of pages, I read in anticipation for this interview, there’s this book or this opt in from Russell Brunson. It’s called 108 Split Tests. And it’s super interesting because it It was probably about, I think, seven or eight years ago. And he’s just got literally 108 different versions of landing pages or order forms or websites where they’re tested different things. And he’s got stats to back it up where they use this word, or they use this type of a banner with a button, or they used a button with Add To Cart above the sales video instead of below a sales video and they show the comparison was really interesting. Is that something you guys focus on focus on as well, which is, you know, conversion optimization?
Oh, that’s huge. Man. That’s something I’m encouraging all of my designers to think about immediately, because that was like the last thing I focused on. And looking back, I don’t have too many regrets in my journey. But I definitely wish I would have focused on conversion based design and tactics. Honestly, I wish I would have prioritize words more, because I tended to be very sloppy, and I just didn’t think about words as much. I just didn’t understand how valuable and important they were, I always thought video and images were more important. And yes, those are super important. But they have to be in conjunction with a word. And let’s be honest, when you click to buy something, you don’t click an image, you click a button, you click a word to do something. So yeah, I think that’s really, really important. I’m actually looking at this split test thing right now I’ll make sure this is linked. So it’s a is it 108 test calm, it looks like get 108 proven split test. That’s really cool, man, this is why I wanted to talk with you too, I figured you’d have some copywriting type of connections or some resources that I could share. So that looks really cool. And it’s….
So disclaimer and a full disclosure about that thing it’s kind of funny, because it’s like on this image, you’ll see this and then on the right, you’ll see that and throughout the throughout the documents, like the image is incorrect here, but a lot of them are, but you will sort of see a lot of the stats and what and pictures and what they’re trying to say. But um,
Okay, I appreciate the heads up. You know, it’s funny, you were mentioning the Pat Flynn thing. Of course, I think most everybody listening is familiar with him, he was recently on the podcast and big time mentor of mine, I’m actually going to be starting by the time this comes out, I’ll probably have made it through most of his email marketing course, that’s my next course I’m diving into. And this is important for web designers too. Because when it comes to your audience, if you have the wrong verbiage and the wrong words, for somebody who doesn’t need to hear that, particularly when it comes to email, that’s a really big problem. Like, if you blast your whole email list and say, you know, we can redesign your website or something? Well, if you already worked with a bunch of people who just read it, redesigned their site, you don’t want to email them that. So like the importance of categorizing and tagging, with the right words is so, so important. And, again, obviously, it’s huge for me, because as you know, now I’m targeting a certain few avatars, what kind of what I’m pushing out. But for the average web designer, the same is going to be true for your clients, like some of them are going to have needs that maybe you want to try to kind of lump them into certain buckets. Maybe some of them are more of a Ma & Pa type site with not that much of a budget, but they do want a website, well, maybe you have certain services and templates, and you know, verbiage for them, then maybe you have some different emails and different stuff for you know, six figure businesses that want to go to the next level. Maybe it’s for different services to. Some businesses really are hurting with SEO, some might have different needs. So I say all that to say the power of copywriting man, it really is intertwined in everything we do, isn’t it?
Yeah, totally. I like how you said, the messaging is slightly different for every person. And I’m not sure if you’re leaving for questioning, I was kind of priming for it. Especially for if you have different clients. Why big mistake is just a if you have a small list just to send Hey guys who wants to do some work today? Because one that’s not good positioning. And two, you’re not really speaking to their needs. So nothing is better than a personalized, going against copy here but a personalized video to them, or a handwritten letter that’s even better that addresses what you just said all their needs, especially if someone’s a six figure person like that. Have you ever thought about, you know, scaling to seven figures? You know, you might need a couple of systems in place to help you do that you might need to remove yourself. Well, thankfully, I have a solution for you today. I want to talk to you about a little promotion I’ve got coming up. And then you talk about your pitch.
Well, I guess an additional question to that would be how do we how can you find out what some of those struggles are? for web designers? Yep, it’s probably pretty common. You’re going to know what most clients struggle with. But I think this could be really beneficial to help take an existing audience you have right now even if somebody just has a list of 100 clients, you can email them and let me know if you would back me up on this Jules…
You can email them and ask them, What is your biggest challenge? Is that a kind of tactic you would use to help you identify those customer needs and figure out your copywriting? from there?
Good question. So I’m actually not,
If I’m wrong, blast me, you can tell me I wouldn’t do that,
Well I’m politely putting you down. I find surveys or asking people questions, or going going to forums is not necessarily the truth. And here’s why people want to tell you what they want to hear what you what they want to hear. And nothing is better than getting on the phone, like a Zoom call, with customers who already have a rapport with, you really have some sort of relationship with. And then you start to ask some questions like, what are your daily frustrations? Obviously, that’s not your first question. When I get build some rapport, like, how’s it going? Like? What’s your family? Like? What are you working on right now? bring their guard down a little bit. I’m curious, you know, like, what are some things that are really frustrating you the last couple of weeks, and they’ll tell you, you want to really get a clear picture of what their day is like. And when you get a clear picture what their day is like, you can empathize. And that’s the click key thing. You want to empathize. You don’t want to just you bring up the pain, yes. But you want to be like, yeah, I get it. So you’re working day to day, you’ve got all these zoom meetings, and you feel like you don’t have any time to get around to being a dad or a mom. And it’s hard sometimes I really understand but and then, you know, then you sort of segue into a solution. So circling back to what you were saying before, hands down, if you could reach out to someone and offer some sort of benefit, and in exchange for them to coming on a call with you. That is a best way to do some research.
Okay, two things. First of all, I love what would you say you polite me, put me down? I love that’s such an easy thing to do, right like a mate. Just a quick thing? I don’t you know, I love that. So that is totally cool. The second thing is, we just talked about this. And I love that you’re saying Nigel’s because in my web Design Club, which is like my private web design community, we just had a presentation on a website strategy. And we talked about asking clients for their struggles and challenges. And I kind of asked you that question is just to kind of get your thoughts on it, because my mind still goes to that, what’s your biggest challenge? But I totally agree. And what what you just said, backs up what we this challenge that we did in my web design Club, which is, don’t ask somebody what their struggles or challenges is, just ask them. Tell me about your business? And it seems like if you just have an open ended question, ironically, you’re you’re gonna get to the challenges and struggles very quickly, like somebody is going to tell you about their business. And then inevitably, whether they know it or not, they’re probably going to lead right into their struggles is that does that kind of encapsulate what you meant by you know, instead of asking them, what’s your biggest struggle? Because you’re going to get probably the canned responses, you want to get what is really at the heart of the problem, right?
You’re not just trying to take the goods and runs her to speak, you’re really trying to listen to them as a human. – Jules
Exactly. So that they might tell you what’s going on their business being like all I’m really slammed right now. But I’m working on this project. And you’re like, Oh, so tell me about that project. And then one thing led to another, you’ll follow up with questions, you’ll do active listening, hopefully, which is repeat back the problem term is like, so you’re saying that you’re working, I don’t know, 30 hours, and you just don’t have any time to write the copy? Is that sound right? Yeah, it is. Right. Okay. And, you know, how does it make you feel? Well, it’s really frustrating, because I want to get this project out the door in the next month. Okay, you see what I’m saying? So yeah, it’s like actively listening, making them feel like they’re, you’re not just trying to take the goods and runs her to speak, you’re really trying to listen to them as a human.
I love that. It’s true. It’s so key. That’s huge in sales, too. I’ve talked a lot about the idea of like matching and mirroring, which is where you might listen for like a keyword or a phrase that somebody says as kind of a pain point. And then at the end of the conversation, you go, you know, the beginning, they were like, I just want a website that’s modern, and it looks fresh. At the end of the conversation a half an hour later, if you say, Well, listen, my goal is to give you a nice modern, like fresh site, they’re gonna be like, Oh, yeah, a fresh modern site. Exactly. They’re gonna forget, they just told you the solution in the beginning, or at least they highlighted the problem. So I love that man, it’s a great reminder, for me and for everybody else to maybe instead of just saying, What’s your biggest challenge, keep it open ended. How’s your business, particularly when it comes to like on a call, because when you’re on a call, it’s a lot easier because they’re just gonna talk and they’re gonna end up spilling what the problems are.
Exactly. And one, one key thing that I would really recommend to your listeners, if you want to get good at this is to just study good interviewers. So Joe Rogan’s really good at just empathizing and figuring out what, what, what makes people tick, and then leading the conversation that way. And being an active listener, it’s really easy, just one site to say the next thing. It’s harder to just sit there and solely focus on someone for the 30 minutes 30 minutes and try and be selfless. Yeah selfless in that situation. Because I don’t know, it’s just the way we’ve all grown up, we’ve all just, it was something we’re really taught in school how to interview and actively listen correctly.
Oh, one of the best courses I somebody could go through in high school or college, particularly in business as a listening course. Like, here’s how to, here’s how to listen. And that will get you clients like, here’s boring sales t ip number one, just listen. And if you do that, it’s going to help your sales dramatically instead of you just acting like a salesman, and also takes the pressure off of selling when you just listen. And I agree, man, I mean, you’re a podcaster, too. Now, I’m sure you’ve learned a lot with with interviewing, it definitely is an art. I feel like I’ve gotten better and better. And I’m really working hard to be a better interviewer. And I agree, what I found is if you’re just curious, and you just ask good questions, and you let the conversation go where it needs to go. Those are the best episodes and interviews, like, it’s kind of one reason, I was thinking about sending you like a bullet list of like, here’s some topics I’d like to hit. But you know what, I’d almost rather keep that for me as reference points to questions I might be interested in. But if you want to talk about something that we’re going to go into awesome, like I hadn’t planned on you getting into your backstory in the beginning, but it was great. It was a great way to, to set the foundation for this interview. And it’s funny, I just interviewed a few folks that all said during our interviews, like this is I like it. I like these questions. They’re different than your typical. Alright, let’s try to keep an interview. 25 minutes, and here’s everything we want to cover like that. That is not a conversation. That is a like quick question and answer. And I’m not interested in that. I want to have a real conversation about these topics that are going to open up to something really cool and really beneficial for me and my audience.
So all that say completely back. Yep, on them. I’m a big fan of Joe Rogan’s show. And I do honestly as a as an interviewer. I’ve learned a lot from that like to just ask better questions and to be curious. And the same can apply as a business owner when you’re talking with clients. If you’re just curious, like, honestly, in heartfelt if you’re curious about their business that will open up doors, and that will build trust. So I can’t encourage that enough, man. That’s great. All right. Ironically, something I do have on the list I don’t want to talk about is that email? Yeah, I do. Because all this kind of segues into Okay, this is great. But how the heck do we do that? How do we practically do this? So if you can, man and even if there’s you said, there might be some newer examples of maybe an email campaign that you saw big results on, I would love to dive into one and see what worked. And some of the practicalities there. So the floor is open for you, man, what maybe, if you’re open to share about something you’ve learned recently,
I’m pumped for this, because now sort of found something I’m really good at, which is launches. So I tried to talk to you one about earlier that a six figure launch recently, the dollar value for a client and did literally finished yesterday, she generated over like 20 calls at 4k apart, but she wasn’t the best closer. So the value wasn’t as high and however, the principles to get people excited to jump into the offer is really important. And that’s called a pre launch. So a lot a big mistake. Have you seen this Josh, in the online space where someone might give one or two days before notice before say the cart is open the the offer is available?
Um, but the thing is that it doesn’t it’s not like some movie has a really good is a really good comparison. They’ll have a trailer a season or two out this fall Doom, and then it’s just like a character that just comes in and for about a minute or two and they take it away, and then you’re left wondering, okay, what’s next. And it all leads up to this one big event. And it’s, I find it no different than with an email sequence. However, we don’t have several months to pre launch. But before I found these five keys to my mentor taught me five days is just just the right length to build that anticipation and really get people excited.
And I’m sorry, because you’re the reason I was laughing at that is like I’m sure you don’t want to say like hey, I’ve got something coming out in three months that you’re gonna sign up for that’s probably too long, right?
Too long. But but the parallel between movies because they do really well where you know, they market movies super well they get this is really high level where they get the actors going on talk shows going all the talk shows that same as us with podcasters with want to release something. But yeah, but if you just got an email list, if you even got, say three to 500 people on your list, you can still do this. So I like to call it my triple Launch, pre launch sequence. So you’re getting hot, heavy and hopeful. And so what you’re trying to do is want to get them excited behind a theme, or a big idea. I’ll give you an example. So the one I recently just did was for a career coach, so she helps people in high level, executives get like that CEO or C suite position. And the theme for it was, be known. Always Be confident, become known, accelerate your career. And that was the subject line, part one, part two, part three. So this is whole theme going the whole week, we’re getting them excited of what it means to be be confident, become known accelerate your career, all the different opportunities that opens up for you. And then it’s just leading up to a webinar for this instance, it doesn’t have to always be a webinar. But we just found that an event seems to work really well. That’s how it worked with the first client with a six figure launch. Okay, I’m not here to teach webinars. But if it leads up to event, it’s the only call to action is to register for the webinar, for instance, and then once you does a webinar, then your offer is open. You know, that’s when people are super excited, like, Oh, my God, like, I can’t wait to get into this. Instead of just being like, oh, okay, this thing’s open. There’s no emotional investment.
Yeah, that is great. That’s really great man. And I’m sure this can work for web design services, along with digital products and coarse graders, I found a similar thing with all my courses, I would generally do a pre order which I would consider this pre launch phase to build anticipation, create content around it. And then when the launch came, it was really good. Ironically, I did that for all my courses leading up to the last one I did, which is about building a course, I did not do a pre order I pre sale because I had such a decent existing audience. And because I’m kind of scratching or scratching into or scraping, excuse me into like new territory. I didn’t do like a pre launch. I just kind of had it available for people who are interested. But it did teach me that there’s a lot of power in the pre launch and building that anticipation. And having those type of really intentional lead ends are huge. So I love that. So pre launch five days, you said five days as a pre launch. Is that enough time to launch?
Yeah. Okay. Exactly. That’s really important. And while we’re on the topic of launches, once you open the cart, make sure you have a set deadline and, and highlight the social proof. So let’s just say you only have a bit a bit harder digital course you can’t say I’ve only got 20 courses left, that doesn’t doesn’t work.
Right, right. But the timing thing, the timing thing is what I found, like, Hey, I have a deadline. And I contrary to a lot of freakin scammy course creators that I see. Because a lot of course creators will have their course that’s like $1,000, but it’s never actually $1,000 it’s always on sale. And that drives me freaking mad because I think that’s such horseshit. It’s a terrible skeevy price approach. Yeah, it’s like, I show like that, because I do have courses that are full price. And then if I have a sale period, or if I have a discount code or something, those are very short windows, and they’re real, it’s not a fake discount. And I’m getting amped up on this because I do think it’s a really sleazy marketing tactic to say like, buy it now. While it’s 30% off. And then after that sales over, it’s 30% off again, this is like a like a car sale, like a car sales place. They’re always on sale. Like there’s always a sale going on. It’s springtime sale, then summertime sale, then fall sale. It’s like there’s no immediate need when there’s always a sale. So I definitely back that up that even if you have a digital product, or in the case of web designers a service that Yeah, anyone could get at any time, if you actually have a real offer that is going to end and you stick to that. There’s a lot of power to that.
There’s so much power to that, especially if you’re integral with your word. When you say this is the deadline. And I saw I saw I love to study people’s launches. Stu McLaren did this super well, where he had this email saying I better not get messages like this as a subject line. And it was people who had literally screenshots of people being like still I missed the deadline I had all this and all these excuses being like any said If that’s you, I don’t care. The doors close at this time.
I know right.
I every sale or any special I have. I always get that. That’s like the day after or a couple days after like, Hey, I just saw my How the hell did you just see this? I sent you a week and a half’s worth of emails as a reminder, this is closing them. I was like how like, so I definitely I have learned I was really lenient early on early on. But now, I’m very lenient, not because I want to be a jerk to those people. But I have to be respectful of the people who do join during that window. I think that’s so much more important to be respectful of your good customers and your good clients who are going to be respectful of that than somebody who is like, I know, you saw the deadline before I kind of wonder what’s behind that, you know, like, what’s the psychology because I would never, ever do, I just wouldn’t do that. The only time I would do that is if for some reason, I actually did see something that I didn’t know about before. That I was like, shoot, I just missed it. I don’t even know if I would do that. Now, though. I can understand that. But the people who have been on the email list, I know, they got the emails. I know they saw them. How did you like that’s where I draw the line? For sure.
Yeah. And it’s not life and death. They can just come in the next time. They’re like, Oh, I really need this like, Okay, well, you should have showed up. But here’s the thing as well. It’s, if you accept one person, it is short term money, yes. However, you don’t have control of their mouth. So they could tell a friend, their friend could soak around like, Oh, I heard from this person that you let that person in. And then your integrity is out the window. So it’s got an unsaid rule.
That’s a great point, man, the that’s the integrity of your business, right. And you like your app. So Oh, god, that’s a great point, Jules. I never thought about that. But particularly on a business like mine, and for web designers, with web design clients, they’re going to talk to each other. So you do have to be very careful of how you go across and how you conduct your business like that. Because, yeah, if you give a special deal to somebody, that special deal can leak out. And maybe that can be really detrimental. It’s funny, just last week, or the week before somebody emailed me and said, Hey, I heard somewhere that I could get your courses for 50% off. And I was like, Ah, yeah,
You should play along with it.
I don’t know who said that. But I was, like I said, occasionally I’ll have sales. But those are fairly rare. And I am going to be doing more like webinars and trainings that will promote a course for a short window. I said that and I was like, you might be confused with some people, when they upgrade to my bundle, which is all my courses together for a huge discount. Like maybe that’s what somebody thought, but it really put me off because I was like, who’s out there saying get justice courses for 50%? off?
Yeah, a common a common trait that narcissist’s have, that they plant ideas in your head saying, but you said this, and you’re like, what? No, I didn’t. And then they’ll double down on it. So yeah, there’s a lot of them out there. So watch out.
So when it comes to emails in in launching something, and again, I think this could go into a service based product as well, deadlines are here, I know, there’s a cool tool called deadline funnel, I thought about implementing that. Right now I just use a I do it manually for my like discounts the end, but I all use, shoot what’s to call I think it’s countdown countdown mail, it where it’s a very low cost subscription, where I can create a counter that can be embedded in emails that just take it down. So I’m gonna, I’m using that for a lot of stuff now. But the same thing can be true with like a service based business to where, yeah, anyone could buy your web design services at any point. But if you’re doing a free webinar, and you’re taking registrants and there’s a special offer, like maybe the offer is for everyone who joins this free webinar, where I’m going to teach my five top tips for SEO, and then maybe the services or the offer is, you know, you get a certain percentage off. If you move forward with a new website design or a new service. That offer is what expires, your services can always be, you know, purchased at full price, but this offer right now really expires and if your harsh on that deadline and you’re you’re respectful to the people who actually signed up in the right time period. That’s, that’s what I would suggest people do as far as this kind of thing.
A fast action bonus. Yeah, I do that all the time with with everything I do, because it’s always there’s just gonna be that small percentage of people who are bit greedy and say this is greed that we’re trying to poke at. That’s the emotion but they want something for nothing. And there’s nothing better than some sort of bundled thing it doesn’t always have to on that note doesn’t always have to be a discount. See. I try and stay away from discounts because I like money. So one of the things I like to do, there’s nothing wrong with discount because they work all the time. But bundling the more value you know what, what can you can you give them a free call, can you give them an extra page? Can you work with another marketer who’s complimentary and say you’ll also get this with your sharing business with them and then you’re building alliances and you know, it’s,
Look the reality is under if you pull back the veil of the word discount, there’s another D word which is called devalue. So if, and I look, I have tons, like I have discounts that I offer for stuff. But I have I’ve have seen that that’s something I’ve really thought about is maybe discounts are the best way to market some of my courses because it does devalue something is it’s hard to do, or it’s very tricky. It’s very tricky, because like, they do work, but I get the devaluing thing. However, I think implementing some additional like, like you said, additional upsells, or well, upsells on our end, but value for your clients, like if you get this, then you also get this and this and this. That’s where that could be really, really beneficial. So I see that as well, for sure. I would love to get back on to this email that you found really big results, because I’m I imagine this deadline idea was involved with that, right? Was there a deadline for something?
So for the on the webinar, there was a fast action bonus for both these clients for 72 hours, and have worked really well for getting that first few people in through the door. Now, one of the clients was a 11 $100 discount. The other one was a one on one call, I think the discount works better. But yeah, but like we just said it was it was depends on,
I guess how they get the offer is Yeah, it also would depend on the customer, like, a lot of my audience would probably value a call more than they would saving 50 bucks or 100 bucks because I would if I was early in my web design journey, and you know, an expert in the field or a mentor where I was able to like ask questions directly, like, Oh, my God, that’s worth 1000s of dollars, potentially. So I suppose maybe and again, going back to like knowing your audience, maybe craft something you could potentially craft a webinar and a campaign that is for the people who want to save money, versus the people who want to book a call or something more high level, right?
Yeah. And on that note, as well. Back to stories, this is a perfect example where this is John, he bought the course he’s one of my typical people with a five or 10% completion rate on their own. This is Harry and he, he took advantage of my fast action bonus. Okay, when we got on the call together, he was able to ask his questions, we got a whole roadmap together. And he finished the course within four weeks, and he landed his first web design client. And so, by the way, just so you know, the call with me expires in 24 hours. I’m not saying this to do a bait and switch, but I just want to reward action takers, so you give him a reason why. And then that’s a great instead of just being like he’s a cool, like, tell them why it’s important. And then use a story.
That’s great, what you just said, People can copy and paste and use as an email template, which by the way, all these episodes are fully transcribed. So just go to this episode’s post and you can take that little snippet and try it out. I love that man. Like for the email itself. Story is huge, obviously. But some of these big campaigns. I really quick What about the the subject line? What about the title? Like, what are your thoughts on a grabbing title that doesn’t come across super salesy. I find titles to be so hard to figure out without coming across like, buy now or coming across like, you know, sale ins. I don’t know, I would love to hear your thoughts on good titles and what’s behind. Okay, cool.
Yeah, let’s do that. On the on the close, which we just did yesterday for one of my clients, we did do the first one was 24 24 hours left to claim this. On the clothes, we do include urgency to click the thing. But for the other ones as well, well, we’re just sort of, you know, laying down the proof is I really like to target the angst. Angst is the fear. What’s that deep seated emotion that they feel a bit uneasy about to bring up in the subject line. One of them who before was this very different client, but it was the one evil thing that blocks momentum. And the reason why we said that was because in his business, he was his success habits coach and momentum was was everything for that client. So if they weren’t in momentum, then they would not feel like they’re up in the ranks with the with their co workers that feel like a bit of a failure or been embarrassed. And so for whatever reason that one subject line had over 50% opens because we targeted that angst So it’s always a good idea to not just try and do clickbaity, curiosity stuff like you won’t believe what this article said about web design clients. But it could be like freelancer, freelance a horror story of freelancers bank accountant got frozen after client. Okay, I’m doing curiosity again.
Gotta Yeah, yeah. Cuz it can’t Yeah. can be kind of clickbait right with something.
That’s the whole point unfortunately.
Yeah. Well, okay, so Okay, let me pose a scenario for you hypothetically, let’s say I do a web design coach, who was promoting a webinar coming up. Yep. And let’s say this web design coach will call him, Jim. Let’s say he’s about to put out an email for registrants for this free webinar. Should Jim Jim shorts, that’s his name. That’s my, that’s my, that’s my, that’s my imaginary dude who I always fill out email forms with, let’s say, Jim is going to send this email. And he’s got two ideas for the subject line. One is to like just say, boost your website conversions, or how to boost your website conversions, because that’s what this webinar is about. But the idea of this idea of more like a highlight this this Yeah, fear base a struggle? would you suggest maybe Jim, write an email subject more to the lines of like, do you struggle? Or are you getting bad website conversions? Or do you have a bad eye for design? Do you think those are better subject like subjects?
So I don’t know the answer for you. Because the thing you should everyone should do, if you’re unsure is to test test subject lines. I don’t know it’s not the answer you’re looking for. However, it’s always good because here’s the thing. If, if you have the game of webs, web design clients, that’s a that’s a conversation going on in someone’s mind, right? And when you when you tap into that, that’s really powerful. And once they see that, and it’s like, oh, the masterclass is a full is no disconnect, right? They know exactly what’s up. But if you just have some, some fear-based thing, and then and then you don’t waive it correctly, so there’s a complete disconnect, then you don’t properly bridge, you go on some long, long story, for instance, and you say, oh, by the way, I’ve got a master class that teaches this, right? That’s going to annoy the reader. So if you are going to use I’m circling back, if you are going to use say like a fear base one that’s curiosity based make sure that at the start of your email, you get them you cook them in, but you don’t bury the masterclass. So, Bridge it quickly, and then bring it up.
Okay, well, that that’s great. And I did. I did wonder if like mixing the multiple different strategies for curiosity, fear based results base, I kind of wondered if all this is able to intertwine and I do agree. I think testing is 100% the way to go? I will let Jim know, because I’m talking with you. Right before I send that email out tomorrow. So and in all seriousness, I’m so glad I asked you that because I’m going to implement that right away. Actually, you know, we’re recording this on a Monday that emails going out on Wednesday. So that’ll give me tomorrow to to maybe figure out some testing. And I might try, I might try a couple different ones to see what resonate well.
Yes, that lead sentence is really important. So you could have something. So here’s what I do as well, if you testing it, the lead sentence might be the same. But if the subject climb was horror story of bad clients, and that’s but the lead is the same as how to get more clients as a freelancer, as a freelance web designer, a few lines down to keep it congruent and to give the reader a reward or a payoff. Like, let me tell you a shocking story of one of my worst clients, and this is what I refer back to in the subject line. So tell them about the subject lines.
Okay. Yeah, that makes sense, just from a perspective of continuity to just to kind of hit back on that pain point. Or that that kind of fear. So that makes a lot of sense. And I imagine this all was intertwined in that email, right, like all these tactics of solution, but also highlighting the pain points, you know, stuff like that.
Yes, yeah, exactly. And what is one thing that you was a big mistake is that people will write a subject line to get you curious, and there’s nothing in the email to reference it. And it really ticks off the reader because they’re like, Where’s this thing they mentioned? Yeah, they just use this to grab my attention. How dare they? I just saw that frustration.
Oh, my gosh, I couldn’t agree more Did I just saw that on an ad on Facebook. That was talking the headline was, Why webinars are dead and workshops are better or something like that. Yeah, but he didn’t address it. Yeah, like he didn’t address it at all in the video. Like there were some benefits but there wasn’t a very clear like, this is why webinars are not as good as workshop. So I’m going to keep on going the webinars like yeah, workshop sounds great. But I did not sell me as far as why workshops were important. And even if there was like an upsell to that, at least the main points, as far as like, these are some things that will actually help but this is why I think that’s crucial. So that’s great, man, that that is a really interesting take on copywriting and email marketing and some of the stuff together. I know how much time do you have in you?
I’ve got about 14 minutes left.
Okay, so I want to make sure to be respectful of your time and give you a few minutes between calls. I guess one final one final question. And then I want to make sure like I said, we’ll give you some time here. Before we get to that, though, where would you like people to go to check out? And by the way, I don’t think this will be the last time I have you on maybe we can do a separate episode, maybe just about that email sequence, like pre launch. Launch. Follow up. That’s very worthwhile get into
Yeah, I can even, you know, send it to with some anecdote, like some notes on it and tell you what’s going on. You can read and be like, Oh, I like this. Can we talk about this? I’m happy to do that.
Let’s do that. Let’s we’ll get round to in the books here soon. Yeah. Where would you like people to go before I have a final question for you to check out?
Yeah, for sure. So my podcast Storytelling Secrets is best place to find me. It’s where I talk about how to use stories to connect this wide. And ultimately, so I get different guests on from different marketing niches and expertise to come on. I also share a bit about my journey and all my little wins, failures and mistakes as well along the way. And yeah, that’s that’s probably the best place to find me. Isn’t podcast.
Got it? Yep. And I’ll link that and then of course, your website, we’ll link that as well at julesdan.com
People are gonna look at my website. And I’m like, I found this mistake and this mistake, website, like, because I just had a few of those as well, because it’s a good.
You’re a copywriter, who’s early in your journey, I don’t expect you to have the most kick ass website yet.
So let’s leave my cuz it’s up. It’s up.
Because that Luckily, you know what something that’s up is better than something that’s down because you’re waiting on it to be perfect. So kudos on that. Luckily, my audience is your vibe attracts your tribe. So I feel like my audience, for the most part are really cool, folks. And they’re there they understand. So it’s all good man, I promise, I promise you you will not get Josh Hall Web Design Show listeners that comment on your site and tell you how bad of a shape it’s in.
How you when you land on my website, the first thing that is huge, and you want to click on it is apply for a free strategy session. I’ll tell you the three steps what we’re going to do, which I know you have on your website, too.
I’m working on it. I’m working on it right now. Yeah, yeah, I’m actually Well, okay, final question for you. Well, I’m going to switch up my final question. And this will be a bit of a coaching thing to before we head off. Okay. So my thought is, and I think web designers could do this as well is a like, a, maybe like a five day video series to help address a certain problem. How do you feel about that? Do you think myself and web designers? Do you think there’s a lot of value in us having like a, identifying a really clear pain point, or struggle, and having like a five day video series that would help that that would then lead into some sort of offer? What are your thoughts on that as a final cap on this combo?
Yeah, I’m gonna give you the annoying answer again. And that’s, we need to test this stuff. It’s really hard to test this stuff when you don’t have an audience. So you don’t have a lot of traffic. That’s the hardest part I found. So it’s like, does it would a video sequence work? Or would an email sequence work? Or would a three day sequence work? What’s the best one? And the answer is, we just need to figure it out. But if you do understand, like what we spoke about, on today’s podcast, you get on the you get on zoom calls with your customers, you empathize the problem, you really understand what’s going on in their day, you don’t have a big list, you could just just say, Look, I’ve got this three, three day, a five day little sequence that solves this. I know, you spoke about that with me on the call, would you like me to send it to you? That could be an option, instead of waiting, it would have just come into the funnel?
That’s good. I like that. I like that. Yeah, cuz I do think particularly on a topic in and around web design that might be daunting. For a client that doesn’t know anything about websites. A little like, step by step type of video series could be really beneficial. It’s bite size, it builds authority, it builds trust, and that could really be a great lead in for an offer. So I The reason I ask that is I’m thinking about doing that. For my avatars. I’m thinking about having a separate series for people who want to get started with web design, versus people who want to start their business versus people who are taking it to the next level.
Yeah, and people I’ve spoken to on my podcast who were like course creator, optimism optimizers, where they actually help you get it done. One things I do is that it’s it’s time gated, but in order to watch the next one, you have to watch the first one that makes sense, not just…
Day one, you can watch it day two, you can watch both of them. So it really drives people to actually sit down and do with the content.
Yeah, gotcha. Well, Jules, thanks, man. I feel like we just got this conversation started. So we’ll definitely have to do around to here. Thanks for your time. Thank you so much for getting up super early. Give me some time to get another cup of coffee before your next call. So I think we’ll have you on pretty soon to chat about this so thanks so much.
Well, I’m keen to hear Part Two for your story as well. We didn’t really get to hear how you sold the business. That’s really curious to so. Thanks again and really appreciate every listener for putting their earphones into their ears. It’s really intimate place.
We’ll get both round twos on the books here. Cheers, man.
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