If you’re a web designer, you don’t need to worry about email marketing, right?…..WRONG!

Email marketing is crucial for ALL businesses now and you as a web designer have an amazing opportunity to build a powerful little sales tool by growing your email list with leads and existing clients.

As I mentioned in my recent podcast episode 129 where I shared my top regrets as a web designer, not utilizing email marketing much in my time as a web designer was a HUGE opportunity lost.

In this episode, marketing and web design guru Tim Strifler of DiviLife.com (who has a thriving email list in the tens of thousands) shares his top tips for building and growing YOUR email list.

And the real beauty is, you don’t need thousands or even hundreds of subscribers to have an amazing sales tool for your business.

Having an organized, categorized and active email list, even if super small, can be a great way to stay top of mind with your clients and give you the best ROI when upselling existing or new services to your clients.

We cover this is so much more in this episode, enjoy!

In this episode:

00:19 – Podcast prelude
03:51 – Greeting to Tim
07:34 – About Tim
12:10 – Email is NOT dead
16:25 – Homebase
18:56 – Staying top of mind
21:42 – 2021 email market
23:37 – Doing it wrong
24:39 – Utilizing follow-up
30:07 – Unsubscribe offense
31:36 – Helpful survey info
35:17 – Finding balance
36:43 – List building
41:41 – Size doesn’t matter
44:19 – Clean occasionally
46:05 – Quality over quantity
47:03 – Content + address
52:50 – Introduce and picture
1:00:13 – Dripping out
1:01:42 – Start simple
1:05:02 – Find your voice
1:10:17 – Cheap not free
1:14:40 – How-to options
1:21:25 – Recommendation
1:25:23 – Just hit Send

Episode 002 – What it Takes to be Successful in Web Design With Tim Strifler


Connect with Tim:

Featured links mentioned:

Episode #133 Full Transcription

Josh 0:00
Hey, everybody, welcome into the podcast. This is Episode 133. And I’ve got a very special guest for you somebody who is a very close colleague of mine. And if you’re in the Divi community, you know he needs no introduction. Funny enough, this guest is also the very first guest I had on my podcast, which was Episode Two. This is Tim Strifler of Divi life. And for those of you who know Divi, and know of Tim, you know, he is a seasoned entrepreneur. He is a marketing a really great marketing mind, very savvy, very open and transparent about what he knows.

Josh 0:51
And I wanted to talk to him about something that I think is super important, actually more important than ever, now in business. And that is email. And when you think about Tim, you might think about his brand at Devi live with a lot of awesome Divi plugins, you might think about him with course creation, and Divi chat and a lot of different things. But one thing you might not know that Tim has done really well at his building and growing his email list, and more importantly, nurturing his email list. And in fact, at the end of the episode, you’ll hear how many subscribers He currently has. And it’s pretty baffling.

Josh 1:23
So he’s done a really good job, I wanted to talk with him about email, and email marketing specifically. So you can build a list, grow it and nurture it to help get clients and do a much better job at staying Top of Mind with your clientele. And I know you might be thinking, I’m a web designer, I don’t want to be an authority. I don’t want to be a YouTuber I do I need an email list. Yes, you need an email list. Even if it’s small, it’s better to have 100 people on an email list that are really good potential clients or current clients that you can circle back around to. And you know, just recently, I think it was it was a few weeks ago, I talked about some of my top regrets as a web designer, and one of my biggest ones was not building and nurturing an email list. As a web designer, I so wish I would have done that.

Josh 2:11
So in this episode, you’re going to hear about some amazing tactics and strategies to build and grow your list. Tim was again, he’s an open book. So transparent, such a great marketing mind, I had such a blast talking with him and I know you’re going to pull some crazy good value from this. Now, when it comes to email lists, and more specifically, being really intentional about emailing customers and clients. This is more important than ever. And it’s actually like it’s a must, if you’re doing e commerce. And for those of you who may not know I do have an e commerce course it’s my Divi WooCommerce beginners course WooCommerce is the e commerce solution that I use on my site. And then I built all my e commerce sites with with Divi. And if you are going to do e commerce, email is a massive part of that you got to think about how you’re going to build your email list for a store or for your clients. You need to think about how you’re going to segment them and tag them, you’re going to think you got to think about how you’re going to nurture that customer relationship.

Josh 3:08
So we do talk a lot about that as well in this episode, and if you’re interested in getting further into e commerce and you want to learn WooCommerce and Divi, check out my Divi WooCommerce beginners course it’s an open and available for you right now. And I’m really excited to help you with learning how to build online stores, because that’s more important than ever is well building successful online stores. And it’s not rocket science. Yes, there’s complexities and yes, it can get a little tricky, but I want to help guide you through that. So join that course today I’m interested. And that’s gonna pair perfectly with email marketing. And now here’s Tim, let’s talk building and growing your email list and you can find out how you can use Divi to help you out with that as well. Let’s dive in.

Josh 3:51
Timothy, welcome back on to the podcast. Looking good. Soundin’ good. How’s it going man?

Tim 3:56
It is going well. Thanks again for having me back. I had the privilege of being was that was it episode two or three.

Josh 4:04
Episode two, man that’s what’s so well, you are technically my first interview my first guest on the podcast, I can’t believe it’s going to be well see this episode is going to be in the hundreds and 30s probably so that’s wild that it’s taken that long since you’ve been on but it’s great to have you back on man.

Tim 4:23
I know part of it feels like it’s been a long time. And then on the flip side, it doesn’t feel like it’s been all that long. It’s just kind of this weird COVID world. Like the whole sense of time is just weird.

Josh 4:38
Agreed. Well, and now Last time we talked you weren’t you weren’t a parent yet. Now you’re a parent. And that’s when time really gets thrown off because stuff could be three years ago or two weeks ago and it feels the same kind of thing. Very, very odd. I mean, dude, I was thinking about this. When you and I met the first time face to face that was in Word camp. And that was December those Wordcamp. us December 2017. So we’re going to be coming up on four years ago. Can you believe that?

Tim 5:07
Dang. Yeah, cuz that was a Nashville right in the first.

Josh 5:10
Yeah. Yeah, I feel like that was like a year and a half ago, but it was almost four years ago.

Tim 5:16
That’s crazy. Yeah, I’m coming up on five years of Divi life, which to me is just mind blowing because it’s one of those things where it doesn’t feel like a long time, but then it also feels like a long time.

Josh 5:30
So why don’t you start at life I’m completely derailing this conversation right from the get go. But it’s, it’s you’re one of my best buddies in the Divi community. Have a good time. We’ll get to who you are what you do here, but yeah, wouldn’t you start Divi life?

Tim 5:42
So I started creating products in 2016 like early on in the year and then I actually launched develop because at first I was just selling on marketplaces. That’s right You know, marketplace and then elegant marketplace. And then I launched Divi life in towards I think it was summer actually is August. So like, yeah, we’re like, less than a month away from that five year mark. So Wow,

Josh 6:09
that’s crazy, man. I yeah, it feels like you’ve been doing this for like a decade, but it’s hard to believe that it’s five years.

Tim 6:16
I know. Yeah. It’s crazy. But yeah, it’s been a wild ride and super fun. I absolutely love what I do as I know you do as well. So yeah, time goes by really fast when you’re having fun and enjoying what you do.

Josh 6:29
And working your ass off to Yeah, man, all those things combined. So it definitely Yeah, and like I said, it’s been a year and a half since you’ve been on but doesn’t feel like that that long. So I’m super excited to have you back man. I know there was like about, you know, 1300 topics we could dive into. But we decided to talk about email marketing, because email is more important than ever. I can’t wait to pick your brain about that. And then specifically with how we can do it with with Divi. So I’m really, really excited to talk with you about this, Tim, because I remember when I didn’t really care about email, you told me about how powerful your email list was. And this goes back to when I met in person. And I was like, Hmm, maybe I should actually give a crap about email and I’m so glad I did. So I listened to your advice everyone listening right now is definitely a who’s gonna listen to your advice before we dive in and do you want to let everybody know who maybe doesn’t know who you are? Where you’re based out of and what what do you do with with Divi life and then I’d actually be curious about what do you literally do would like what your role is and to be live because I know you’re growing as a business owner.

Tim 7:34
Yeah, absolutely. So Tim Strifler I’m broadcasting from San Clemente California. This is where I was born and raised. My wife and I spent three and a half years in the Austin Texas area. And so my business is technically still based in in Round Rock, Texas.

Josh 7:53
Nice. I was I just thought you I just thought you were dying to pay more taxes or something.

Tim 7:57
Yeah, well, I because I live here. I actually like the LLC is passed through so I’m still paying California taxes even though my business is technically Texas.

Josh 8:09
Okay.

Tim 8:10
Yeah, it’s a whole.

Josh 8:12
That’s another podcast.

Tim 8:14
Yeah, exactly. And so yeah, Divi life.com is my main business. So I my background is web design and development doing client sites. And so back in 2013, Divi came out. And so I was using Divi on every website, and then I started to see people selling products. And I thought there’s not a market for that. And no one would buy a third party Divi product. And then I had some big client sites that required me to create some additional functionality. And I thought, you know what, like, this would be a really great product. I’m just gonna throw it out there. I already have it. And so then I saw pretty quickly that hey, like people that are using Divi they’re hungry for for more, they want to be able to do more with Divi. And so that was kind of how Divi Life was born. And then as we mentioned, yeah, coming up on five years now. And so, so Divi life we create Divi plugins, child themes, layouts, tutorials, that sort of thing. And so my role as I don’t really call myself CEO, but I guess that’s what I am. I focus on growth, that’s probably my main thing is is driving revenue. So I guess you could say that marketing is one of my main tasks. But then I also oversee my support team and my designers and developers and everything and so I have a very like if you look at like the org chart, like employee hierarchy, like it’s very flat like basically at this point, everyone reports to me I don’t have managers on the support side, kinda. I have a team lead. But yeah, so I oversee the team, oversee new products and kind of try to anticipate What Divi users are wanting and would want and so we have some big stuff coming out that we’ve been working on for over a year, which is actually kind of more playing catch up. But we’ll we’ll talk about that next time around.

Josh 10:13
How big is the team now?

Tim 10:15
So eight full time. And so several customer support several designers, several developers. And then yeah, that’s basically it. So yeah, I would say, mean and lean is the name of the game. And so I try to focus on what’s going to have the biggest impact and so there’s certain things that I know I could be doing more of like I could be doing like daily blogging. However, rather than hiring content writers I just look at, okay, well, what’s gonna make the biggest impact and then focus my time on creating really high quality content, you know, around those areas. And so like, I just did a big tutorial video on Divi speed optimization. And so, you know, which is a big thing that people are always asking me.

Josh 11:06
It’s the hottest topic right now. Yeah. Which was great. I did watch that, by the way. I love that was a great little five step guide. Yeah.

Tim 11:14
Oh, good. Thank you. Yeah. So I’m gonna be putting out some more content around that. So anyways, all that to say, Yeah, I try to focus on on on impact. So okay, well, what team members are going to help me have the biggest impact and so so that’s kind of what I’ve what I’ve built out. So

Josh 11:34
So yeah, you’re really good at like keeping a pulse on the community, not only just with Divi, but wider WordPress, community web design in general. I know you’ve got a lot of experience with some of the client side of things, which, you know, just like myself, it translates and like, I can look at my decade of client service work. And I’ve got years of material that I can refer back to, and nightmares that I can revisit. And you know, good, terrible lessons learned and really good lessons learned as well. Yeah. As you’re looking at the landscape, now let’s, let’s turn this conversation to email. Yeah. Why? Why email and why now?

Tim 12:10
Yeah, email is one of those things that has been around forever. Some people will say it’s outdated. It’s anxious. A lot of people say they hate email, and they try to get as the least amount of emails as possible. And despite all of that, and despite social media being what it is, email is still huge. Now, I feel like it’s going to have different levels of success depending on what niche you’re in. And then your business overall, like I’ve I’ve had side businesses where I tried to do the same things that I’ve done with DB life in this niche, this industry, and try to replicate it in a completely different industry. And it didn’t translate as well, it was effective, but it didn’t have as great an impact on driving revenue and stuff like that as it does for for Devi life. So however, I would say overall, email is still very, very powerful when it comes to marketing a business, especially an online business. Yeah, people even though people say they hate email and say, that email is dead, everyone still has an email address, and everyone still gets emails. And so if you can create a way to get people to want to be on your email list, and create enough value for them to stay on your email list, then it can be really powerful. So so I kind of learned that it was something that early on I knew about and so I figured, okay, I’ll just start building my email list. And pretty quickly in 2016, when I wanted to Divi life I started creating tutorials with some sort of, you know, freebie upgrade type of thing to start driving that email list acquisition strategy and stuff and so yeah, so it’s been it’s been helpful for sure. I definitely.

Josh 14:05
That’s how I first got on your list was your your little promo bar, which I still use that little like free you just set you you create a little promo bar and then it pops out the code you just give your name and email that’s how I think I first I think that’s how I first discovered you and I’m pretty sure that was the very first thing that got me on your list. So yeah, I know you were you are early in your business with with really getting going with that I did the same thing. When I started Josh Hall co with the tutorials, I started building my email list first thing, which was completely contrary to what I do with in transit studios. I never managed a great email list. I had a client list that I would do every once in a while but one of my biggest regrets and I just talked about this in a recent episode with with my top regrets. One of my biggest is not nurturing my clients with an email list and not having any sort of sequences or upsells or follow ups. I mean, there’s so I’m so sorry.

Josh 15:00
So many strategies we’ll get into in this episode, but it is so key. It’s so underutilized and undervalued. And I do, I will say, despite all the people who say email is dead, and who quote unquote, hate email, which I understand, there is a Renaissance, there’s a renaissance towards email marketing in the importance of email. I personally love email. And I came to this realization, I think, probably last year in 2020. And that was, because I really tried to channel all my emails and all my messaging and everything, and I realized whether it is in Slack, or Facebook Messenger, or Instagram, DMS, or Basecamp, or Asana or an email, it’s all a message getting to you. So how you filter and where you filter, there’s oodles of ways to go about that. So email is really just one of any other messaging types. It’s just, it’s the most effective because it goes right to the person. And yeah, I’m sure you’ll I’d like to hear your thoughts on this. Because with email, anytime you sign up for something, anytime you get logged out of something, and you need to get something, it always goes back to your email. I mean, yeah, there are platforms where you can log in with your Gmail, or would that still email or with Facebook, but at the end of the day, your email is like you that’s your home? That’s where everything goes to. So do you feel like even more, so now, it’s more important to have control of that and utilize that?

Tim 16:25
Yeah, definitely. And you’re right, it really is like home base, because it’s like, yeah, it’s account creation, it’s email receipts, it’s, you know, in addition to like, the marketing stuff, and so, yeah, people kind of like treat their, their email inbox as like, kind of their central hub, even though they do use those other forms of communication, emails, kind of like that, that home base. And that’s kind of what I’ve learned is, is Yeah, like email, like I said, very little, like, one to one emails, like From me to you, you know, type of thing. Like, basically, if there’s any type of like recurring messaging happening in email, then it gets brought over to Slack that’s like my go to. And so email, I feel like in that regard is kind of dead for like personal one on one communication. However, for transactional emails, marketing, email, stuff like that, like people still, like getting those emails and use those emails and stuff. And so it’s like, a very personal thing where like, yeah, like, people aren’t willing to give that up or move that to another channel, because it’s, it’s still kind of like, that’s what they control. It’s like, why would you want to bring over control to, you know, Facebook, or whatever, for those, like key things when it comes to like resetting your password and stuff like that, like, I don’t want like, like, I’m not like one of those people that’s like, you know, super, like, crazy into privacy. But at the same time, like, I don’t think I want Facebook controlling my, my password resets and stuff like that for non Facebook related things.

Josh 18:05
Right? Yes. Yeah, no, it’s it is it’s more, it’s more important than ever, I just switched out my headphones, by the way, because my air pods were cutting in and out. Oh, gosh, it’s so crucial man. And I think from a marketing perspective, I look at what I’ve done with my courses and stuff. And an overwhelming majority of my revenue is tied directly to email, and, and nurture those nurturing campaigns that I’m doing, I’m really getting further into email automation, which I’m sure we’ll touch on, but at the core, and I think particularly for service providers, like web designers, maybe just throw the situation out to see how you respond to this. Because an average web designer might say, Well, I’m not going to be an authority, or an expert or something to where I’m going to have this big online brand. Like, why even build an email list of I’m just working with clients, what would you say to that?

Tim 18:56
I would say it’s all about staying Top of Mind, for the same reason that people do social media, you know, for their service business and stuff like that, you should be doing the same thing with with email. Because people forget about you, time goes on. And so you want to stay top of mind. And so whether if you’re a web designer, whether or not your client needs to hire you, you know, tomorrow, next week, next year, you still want to stay top of mind not only so that they will you’ll be the first person they think of when they do need something. But then also for referrals, like that’s a huge thing. Yeah, if if you’re if you’re staying in their inbox, with value you’re not spamming them with you know, nonstop promotions but with value, then they’re going to be thinking about you anytime someone says anything related to needing design work or whatnot. So So I would say that’s probably the biggest thing now not to like go down a tangent of like, Okay, well, you should have all your clients on maintenance plans and stuff like that. So you do have that recurring, but even so, I feel like even if they are paying you recurring, still kind of like staying Top of Mind is important, even if even if they are on a maintenance plan,

Josh 20:07
I totally agree I didn’t even think about the referral thing. Because Yeah, that is probably the the biggest key because if one of your clients wants to refer you, more often than not, you’re gonna get an email, they’re gonna say, Hey, this is, you know, Jim or Sally with this company. And they really liked our website, we told them about you let you take it from here, I got oodles of referrals like that. And it was all primarily through email, I mean, occasionally, you might get a Facebook kind of thing. But even even Facebook, and a lot of these other platforms, most of them are not geared for that maybe LinkedIn, I know LinkedIn, a little bit different with group messaging and stuff like that, that’s probably worthwhile utilizing as a separate Avenue, but a high percentage of your referrals are going to come through email. So great point about keeping top of mind, I think, 100%, this strategy has to be value. I mean, of course, you can upsell, and you can keep Top of Mind and then promote new services. But it definitely cannot be nonstop ads, and promotions, because we’ve all signed up. You know, we’ve all bought like a T shirt online. And then the next day, you’ve got 12 emails with all these different offers and promos, and it’s like, oh, my God, give me up. Give me a break.

Josh 21:16
So before we dive into some list building techniques for web designers, specifically, yeah, what would you have any overarching principles about just offering value and maybe some tips on on how to go about email marketing in general, I we’re kind of reversing the I was kind of figured we start with this building in the nursery, but I think it’s actually worthwhile thinking about the plan first, before you actually put a lead magnet out. And before you start getting an email.

Tim 21:42
Yeah, so I would say a couple of things that I see a lot of people doing wrong, is it’s like they treat their their email list as a newsletter, which used to be popular, but email shouldn’t be about a newsletter, because you think of a newsletter. It’s like a monthly thing, maybe weekly. And it’s like, you know, 20 different things like, okay, here’s this, here’s what’s happening with this, you know, here’s company culture, news, blah, blah, blah. And it’s like, people don’t really care, they’re not going to open something that says, like March monthly newsletter, but they might say, open something that says, like, you know, here’s how to, you know, five steps for improving your SEO ranking. You know, without hiring a company, I don’t know, I’m thinking outside the box, or winging it here.

Scratch the word newsletter from your vocabulary. You know, it’s very, like 1998. – Tim

Tim 22:33
And so something that’s actionable, that’s value, and the whole email is dedicated to that one subject, then that’s can be a really effective way. So basically, like, scratch the word newsletter from your vocabulary. You know, it’s very, like 1998. When it comes to email marketing today, 2021 it’s about sending emails, whether it’s value or promotional, with with one focus, and your whole emails kind of dedicated to that, because people have short attention spans. And so you want to have like, one purpose for sending them an email, even if it’s like, one thing that’s really big, in certain industries is like, story based emails, where it’s like telling a story, and then you round it back to like, you know, whatever the call to action is, even though they have one call to action. And so it might have a roundabout way of getting to that call to action, but there’s still one call to action.

Tim 23:37
So that’s something I see people doing wrong. And so and then another big thing is having emails go out to your entire list every time if you set it up, right, email marketing, whether you’re using MailChimp, Active Campaign, any of them, they all basically have the same feature set. You can segment based off of different things. And so for example, with with my business, if my like my all access pass membership, that’s kind of like my top thing. And at the end of the day, I’m driving people to that they can buy products individually, but the membership is the best value. And so that’s what I’m promoting. And so, if I’m doing any type of promotion, why would I send that promotional email to people that already have it, and so I can segment my, my e commerce website synced with my email list. So when somebody buys something, it reports back to MailChimp, what they bought so that I can segment and not include those people into into that email blast.

Tim 24:39
And then on the flip side, I have some freebies like, for example, Josh, he mentioned the promo bar generator. And actually, two things I want to say about that the promo bar generate it’s a freebie, but if someone’s already used it, chances are they’re, I don’t need to send them another reminder about it. They’ve already used it. They know about it, they’re familiar with it. And so if I want to promote that freebie again, I can segment out everyone who has already used it before. And that actually brings me to another thing is people are afraid to promote the same thing twice. So like for a freebie, like a value add. People are afraid to send out multiple emails about the same thing, because they’re in their mind, like, Oh, I don’t want people to get annoyed. And we all kind of have this like, mindset that people are going to remember everything that you’ve ever sent an email about, yeah, like, if You’re one company,

Josh 25:37
Right it no

Tim 25:38
Out of many that they follow.

Josh 25:40
That has been a, that’s probably been the biggest mindset shift that I’ve had, as a course creator, and as somebody who is promoting things now, but of course, in a tastefully way. I mean, I, I hope everyone at this point knows, you know, 95% of my content is free, and I try to come across as anti salesy as possible. But I do have premium resources that are the best of the best. And I want to get those in people’s hands to help them like that’s the that’s the true meaning behind everything that both of us are doing.

Tim 26:07
Yeah,

Josh 26:07
That is a good point that sometimes you need to remind people and it often takes what isn’t there like a stat where it’s like, as predicted, when it comes to ads, somebody needs to see something seven times before they make an action. Now, I’m not gonna recommend you spend seven emails on the same thing, but my rule of thumb is three, it’s like, okay, here it is, particularly when it comes to sales and promotions. I just did this with a recent webinar that I promoted. I had two sets of it, I had set a set of three emails for the actual webinar. And then I had a set of emails for the product that the webinar webinar was tied to, because everyone who joined the webinar got a big discount on one of my courses, but it was only for that window. So what I did, and this is, this is one on one for any email marketing, you are going to get a high majority of your sales at the very end that last email. So the first email that went out, moderate response, second email was like, Oh, they had to take action. The last email was always the biggest jump of sales and signups because that’s the last one.

Josh 27:08
And I feel the same way. Like a lot of times, I’m just busy, I might see an email, I may like, have all intentions to look at it. But maybe I opened it briefly I got busy, I forgot that it was unread. So these follow ups are crucial. So these are great tips already when it comes to email marketing plan, as far as not lumping all of your customers into just one main list. Because while you can have a main list that has basic general resources, when it comes to products and services that somebody might already have. That’s where a segment team. Yeah, I totally agree, Tim, this is crucial. And I know it’s some time to set all this up. But it’s so worthwhile because you don’t want to be promoting a product to somebody that already has it. That’s definitely email marketing 101 there. And luckily, there’s I mean, there’s so many ways to to segment your audience, I was even thinking for an average web designer who might have a list of 50 or 100 clients or leads or prospects, even just segmenting, who is a paying client who has a website or has our maintenance plan? You if you send an email about your maintenance and hosting plan, you don’t want to send that to people who are already on your maintenance plan. So if you just have them as a tag, like signed up for this plan, set it to where you don’t send it to them, that alone can be the difference maker with some of these campaigns.

Tim 28:30
Yeah, absolutely. And tags are huge. Every platform has tags, and yeah, you should definitely utilize them. One thing though, that can be tricky, especially with e commerce is people will will down like download a freebie or just subscribe to my email list with one email. And then they use a different email for purchasing. Right, so then they get on the email list twice, one from the one that they use to purchase with and then one from the other one. So then I’ll be sending out a promotion. And they purchase so I’m not going to include them. But their other email doesn’t have that. It’s not segmented because they didn’t purchase with that email. And so they’re like, hey, why am I getting this? I already have this. And I’ll like do a quick search and realize, Oh, hey, you have two emails, email addresses on our email list. And like, our email marketing system isn’t smart enough to automatically like merge those, that technology doesn’t exist to my knowledge. So what I what I do is I will just manually tag them. And so yeah,

Josh 29:34
And sometimes I’ll do different signups with different emails just to like see how it’s going. And I i’ve been researching and investigating email stuff a lot recently and I often will sign up with a different email just to see what is different between the different types of campaigns and how somebody else is organizing their email marketing. So yeah, I think it’s probably a byproduct and it’s probably a good heads up like you are going to run into this and don’t let this catch you off guard all say this to Tim and I’d be curious to get your thoughts on this. I think one of the most important things when it comes to email is to not be offended when somebody unsubscribes because I was like I was hurt when I started the very few emails I sent to clients before I launched this endeavor. When I got unsubscribes. I was like, crushed, I was like, Oh my gosh, they’re one of my best clients, and they unsubscribe from my email, like, I just get hit me to the core. And now I’ve realized, don’t take it personally, people are busy. Sometimes people just go on an unsubscribing spree, sometimes they just don’t want to get these messages. And they don’t want to that is all right, they can always re subscribe to something, as long as it’s and this is where segmentation comes into play, too.

Josh 29:41
I’ve This is something I did recently, with my list is one issue I found myself having and this will be really worthwhile for everybody with an email list is I had my main email list. And when somebody unsubscribed will suddenly they couldn’t get notifications if they were already a student. And I had like an update on the course or I was doing a q&a for students. So what I did is basically create two different lists. One for my main list, everyone goes in there, those were my podcasts, go out any announcements, stuff like that. And then my students list that way. If somebody doesn’t want to get my podcast notifications, they can unsubscribe, that’s fine. But they’ll still get the student emails. So that’s just my little take on on on subscriptions and segment team. But yeah, how do you feel about unsubscribes? Man, I imagine you had to grow a thick skin with a product based business.

Tim 31:36
Yeah, it’s That’s exactly right. And there’s still times where I have to kind of like, re remind myself, you know, to not take things personally, and I use MailChimp. But every email marketing platform out there, for the most part has this either by default, or you can turn it on where when someone unsubscribes they can tell you why they unsubscribe, the call to unsubscribe survey. And it’s a helpful thing, because people will tell you why they unsubscribed. So for example, if someone says, or you’re starting to recognize a pattern that people are saying, like did not sign up for this list. Well, then you have to figure out okay, well, why are people saying that because they did sign up for the list. I’m not just emailing them randomly, like they’re here for a reason. However, maybe I need to alter the language, the verbiage you know, have to make it like very, very clear when they’re subscribing.

Tim 32:33
So for example, like one of my my freebies, a promo bar gender, I think the version one I mentioned in the video, but I didn’t really put it on the page, I can’t remember exactly exact details that they would be subscribing to my list when they use a generator. And so I had to change it and make it like super clear, like bold disclaimer, like, hey, when you use this generator, you’re subscribing to this list, but you can unsubscribe at any time, like no penalty. And so so yeah, so you kind of like look for those patterns and stuff. And sometimes people will, will say things like, or they’ll write other and then they’ll write something in. Sometimes those are helpful to read. Sometimes they’re not because it’s kind of like the whole thing, like, you know, like not letting it affect you and taking it personally and stuff. And so sometimes it’s good just to ignore it. But it can be helpful information. People will tell you like way too many emails, right?

Tim 33:29
And sometimes it’s like, Okay, well, why are they saying that? Because I’ve literally sent like, three emails this entire month, that’s not a lot, right. And so it’s just one of those things where, you know, everyone has kind of different thresholds of what they consider to be a lot of emails. But if everyone is telling you that, then maybe, you know, it’s, it is too much for them. And so I kind of sometimes I I let different industries kind of affect how I control my business within the Devi communities. Let me explain that that was confusing. For example, as someone who’s a student of marketing and always learning a lot of marketing, I’m on a ton of email marketing lists from other email marketers, and marketers send a ton of emails. And so I’ll get, you know, at least an email a day from most of the marketers that I’m subscribed to, if not two or three emails.

Josh 34:30
Yeah, that’s always over the top for me, like the multiple emails a day is where I draw the line for

Tim 34:35
Yeah, and I never send multiple emails a day unless it’s like Black Friday, and it’s like, you have to, you know, cut through all the noise but and I’ll rarely send one every day. It’s only during like, you know, big campaigns, but then I’ll go like a couple of weeks without sending anything. And so anyways, like, I’ll try to compare my business to the email marketing, online marketing industry, where people in that industry are used to getting a lot of emails. But web designers or small business owners aren’t subscribed to all those email marketers. And so if I send them, you know, five emails in a week, that’s like a ton of emails. And so you kind of have to figure out where that balance that’s a good point, I guess, circling back to the unsubscribe survey can kind of help give you that helpful information for you know why people are unsubscribing.

Josh 35:26
That’s a good to think about with clients to where, like, they’re likely getting a lot of emails from shops they shop at and maybe any sort of, you know, outlets they’re interested in. But marketers and service providers are probably not emailing them much. But I will say what, like what an opportunity as a service provider as a web designer, to stay top of mind with clients, because I guarantee no other digital marketing agency or very few are emailing them with helpful stuff. Like we’ve talked about helpful stuff, not all upsells and promotion stuff, you can do those, but sprinkle them in my rule of thumb is like three helpful emails to one sort of upsell or even if you’re going to do an upsell, maybe tack that on below something helpful.

Josh 36:08
Like a free guide or to you know, like, in look, as web designers, this is more important than ever, because we’re dealing with updates with Google, Google, my business, SEO stuff, design trends, B, all this stuff that is really going to benefit our clients to know about in having an email list where we can let them know and bulk is is crucial. I mean, you can do one on one follow ups. But believe me, if I could tell Josh from years ago, something it would be don’t send 27 emails separately, just put that all in there. And in MailChimp, and then send them a nice little email together with some free information and go from there.

Josh 36:43
I do want to talk about list building, because the next question is okay, for web designers, how do I actually build my list, I do want to talk about automations, too, but might be worthwhile talking about list building, and then talking about some automated sequences for email. So list building Tim, the classic funnel, lead gen is what we all hear with email marketing, you know, sign up, I’ll give my five free tips are whatever. Of course, if you’re getting clients, by them signing on with you, they’re agreeing to your terms, which means you have the right to email them. So my recommendation to all web designers is you should have your client segmented and labeled in some sort of CRM, MailChimp, ConvertKit, whatever, where it’s like you’re a client’s, your B clients, you see clients, that way, you know how to market to them, you’ll have you know, who’s on your hosting and maintenance, who pass it up, whatever. But how do we actually get some leads as web designers and other you know, potential clients on our list? Because that’s, that’s the real trick for a web designer.

Tim 37:41
Yeah, absolutely. So some sort of value is, is, like you said, the kind of the typical way, it can work really well. And it can also work terribly. Because sometimes if you have like a freebie, then you’re going to get people on there that just want free stuff. Yes, and they’re never going to be a buyer. However, if you do it, right, even though, you know, maybe 80 90% of them will never be a buyer, as you scale, you’ll still get that 10% that have the potential to be a buyer, and so it makes up for it.

Josh 38:17
We just talked about that, by the way, Tim, sorry to interrupt you. But in my web design club, we were just having this huge discussion, because a lot of my students are creating some lead gens. But their messaging was like five tips to improve your WordPress website, or how to set up WordPress on siteground. And I did tell a lot of folks who were doing this, like I love the idea, but we have got to tweak the strategy because Who are you attracting with WordPress tips? Diyers, or designers, you want actual paying clients who probably don’t want to be hands on with their website. So give them some tips for like non hands on kind of stuff. But a really important for the websites, or that they could relay to their webmaster. That’s one thing that I always really helpful.

Tim 38:59
Yeah, exactly. And, and that’s something that comes up a lot when it comes to especially at like with service businesses, whether you’re a web designer or a plumber or whatnot, is, well wait, why would I want to give away like free tips, which is something that like I, I do this as a service and people pay me for. And so there’s kind of two sides to that. One is, well, the people that are looking for those free tips. They’re there, they’re going to find them out there, whether it’s from you or from someone else, they’re going to get them yeah, they’re looking for them. And then also, on the flip side of that is they might be looking for those tips, thinking that’s what they need. And you give them those tips and then they still realize hey, this is kind of difficult. Yeah, I don’t want to do it.

Josh 39:45
I don’t want to do it. Yeah.

Tim 39:46
Yeah. Like I need to hire someone like I do that all the time where like with how stuff like as you know, Josh has a homeowner like it’s never ending all the different projects and little things and I’m not super handy, but I’m not I’m also not like completely helpless, like,

Josh 40:01
we’re in the same. So I consider myself moderately handy. Like, yeah, I could do some stuff, but I wouldn’t trust myself to do a lot of stuff.

Tim 40:09
Yeah. And so a lot of times I’ll like, I’ll give it like, you know, a shot doing it myself. And then I’ll realize, you know, I’ll be watching YouTube video or whatever. And then I realized, like, Hey, this is, it’s harder than I thought it’s going to be more time consuming, or I could probably figure it out. But is it worth my time?

Josh 40:25
Yeah.

It’s definitely trying to find that balance of not just attracting people that only want free stuff, where it’s a good combination of value, but it’s also something that people would would then you know, look to hire you in the future. – Tim

Tim 40:25
Because it’s like, if it’s easy, then it’s kind of enjoyable, you know, get that sense of satisfaction, but anything beyond that, and it’s like, okay, it’s literally not worth my time, as a business owner to be doing this, I’m gonna hire someone instead. And so, kind of that same principle with giving away freebies and stuff is, yeah, you might be giving away something for free that you would normally charge for, in terms of like, you know, the tips for them to go and do it themselves. But either people are never, they’re going to be the ones that do it themselves, no matter what, they’re never going to hire you. Or it’s going to get those people that. Yeah, they realize it’s harder or worse than they thought or it’s more takes more time than they thought so then who they’re going to come to, they’re going to come to that person that just has, like, built up their trust, and provided value to them. And so, yeah, I think that’s the the value and some sort of freebie. But yeah, it’s it’s definitely trying to find that balance of not just attracting people that only want free stuff, where it’s a good combination of value, but it’s also something that people would would then you know, look to hire you in the future. So

Josh 41:36
I think it’s important for us to make a distinction too, with as a web designer, an average email list is not going to be huge. And that is okay, like it’s far better to have 100 really good potential buyers on your list than 1000, who are some spammy sign up or somebody who is not your key demographic, and is never gonna reach out to you. And I’ve even felt that with my list, like, at the time of recording this, I’m closing in on 7000 on my email, which is cool. But compared to I don’t know where yours is that Tim, if you’re comfortable with sharing, but compared to you and David and some of my other colleagues, like I’m not even near in the realm with with some other folks. But my list is filled with mostly amazing quality people who a lot of them are our paying customers, which which is key. And I I just think that distinction is important, because I don’t want you to feel discouraged. anyone listening who’s like, Well, my list is, you know, like 32 people, well, if there are 32 clients or potential clients who are going to pay you several $1,000, that’s worth way more than 100 or 300 people who aren’t going to pay a dime.

Tim 42:42
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so mine mines up somewhere between 40 and 41,000. But there’s there is a lot of junk people that don’t open the emails, or that they they open but they got a freebie and so they’re probably not going to buy ecommerce is different than like course sales or even

Josh 43:03
Even our business models differ in that, I don’t have I mean, I have a couple layouts I don’t even promote those are really support those anymore like that. You have products, a lot of them are still very affordable, like a plug in somebody could buy a $30 plug. And that’s way different than investing $497 in my business course, likely, that’s a completely different customer set. So that’s a thing to consider too when it comes to like list numbers and growth.

Tim 43:29
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And on that note, too, talking about kind of list quality. And this is something that I’ve done once it’s been a while, but cleaning your list. So yeah, if you have a couple 100 and they’re mostly like paid clients, probably not as necessary. But if you’re doing a lot of email list building with, you know, freebies, and other ways of acquiring leads or emails, then you’re going to want to clean your email list. And so this for a couple reasons. One, it’s just the cost, right? Like, when you have 10s of 1000s of people on your email list, it gets really expensive, but if like 20% of them haven’t opened an email in like two years, like they’re never gonna open, right? Again, like get them off of there, save some money. But then also it affects your data, your analytics, right? If you’re looking at Okay, my my open rate is 18%. And then but then you cleaning, get rid of those people that haven’t open an email in two years and are never going to open an email again. And then all of a sudden now your, your open rate is like 20 22%

Josh 44:39
Great point.

Tim 44:41
That’s great for your own benefit of seeing what works and what doesn’t work. But there’s also the aspect with Google and everything to with or with Gmail and other email service providers and stuff like that. Because if they see that, hey, this person sending out You know, 200,000 people, but only 1% of them are open rates, well, that’s gonna affect spam. So like point email, when they’re like looking at, you know whether to send an email to the inbox or spam, or even to the promotions tab, or the the main tab in Gmail, they’re looking at overall, because they have a lot of data. So many people use Gmail. And so if they can see that, hey, so many of these emails aren’t being open, or they’re bouncing, because they’re just low quality and stuff, well, they’re gonna just assume that you’re spam. And so they’re gonna start sending your email to people’s spam boxes, even if that person is a legitimate subscriber.

Josh 45:38
That’s a great, that’s a great point, man, that that and it really all goes back to that the quality of the email subscriber. And I think, honestly, we just, we all need to swallow our pride. Like, it might sound really, I would love to have 50,000 emails, but do I want 50 and I’m not saying yours are like this, Tim. But when I went 50,000, that, you know, 10, you know, 40,000 are junk, and then only 10,000 are really good, I would rather have a lower number of quality, again, quality versus quantity. It all goes back to that. And so I was thinking, I think it’d be worthwhile maybe talking about a few different ways to get emails for Web Designs. Because Yeah, there’s some sort of lead gen, like we talked about with a free something that is actually geared towards clients, that busy business owners are going to be able to skim through, not read skim through. Yeah, something like that. But another a couple other strategies I’ve implemented and Eric, my CEOs doing and some other folks I’ve seen doing really well are like, if you schedule a consultation call, they would get added to an email list as a lead. And they would just by scheduling the call, they agree to your terms. And their terms are you get their email list, because they’re scheduling a call with you, you could do it through a contact form. You could do it mainly through a networking event. If you reach out to somebody and they email you back and they agree to you know, any sort of terms that you’d be able to email them. Of course, they can always unsubscribe, but are there any other things like that, that might be roundabout ways to building an email list?

Tim 47:03
Yeah, so I’ve always had a lot of success with paring like email list acquisition with content marketing. And so for example, having a blog post that teaches something some sort of tutorial Now obviously, I’m ecommerce I’m not teaching, have a Divi tutorials and stuff like that. So it’s a little bit different than with like a web designer in a service business. However, I think the principles are the same, because you can still do content marketing, even if you’re not an e commerce business. And so when you’re teaching something, have some sort of content upgrade, where it’s, hey, here’s, here’s how to do it, you know, here’s the steps you need to take, this is why you want to do it. But hey, I have a way to make it even better and easier for you. And all you have to do is subscribe to my email list to get it because it’s relevant. And it’s in context to what they’re already learning about and reading about and wanting more information on and so it’s like a no brainer. Of course, like, yeah, like, if you’re teaching them, like, here’s the, you know, five steps of setting up, Google My Business, and then you have a free ebook that will show them, you know, ways to optimize, you know, whatever,

Josh 48:24
Or schedule a call, and we can look at your setup, which is and then an upsell to your service or something.

Tim 48:30
Yeah, exactly where it’s relevant. And it’s in context. And it’s, it’s right there. opposed to like, like, a lot of times, what you see is you go to a website, and then you know, there’s a little, you know, maybe a pop up or a promo bar or something that says, like, you know, here, grab my, you know, my free eBook for these five tips or whatever. And then it’s email subscribe form, where it’s, yeah, they’re on your website. So it may be relevant to them, and what they’re looking for, but it’s not really what they were looking for in that moment. And so it might be effective, it might not, but when it’s a content upgrade, and it’s giving them something additional to what they’re already looking at. And there’s so many different examples of this. I have like, I don’t know, four or five. So for example, the promo bar generator, it’s a tutorial that says here’s how to add a promo bar to your Divi website for free with without a plug in. here’s, here’s the code. And here’s where you put it. Oh, by the way, if you want to use the generator, you can customize it here not have to be you know, mucking through the code. You can just put in the you know, the colors that you want the text that you want, what you want the button to link to. And then I’ll email you the code base off of your inputs. And you’ll be added to my email list where you can subscribe any time like most people are going to go for the generator option because it just makes it way easier.

Josh 49:57
That’s how you got me. I was like I’m not messing with that PHP. Heck no.

Tim 50:02
Yeah, exactly. And so I have I have several like that, where it’s like, oh, here’s, here’s how you do this. I’m trying to think of another one.

Josh 50:14
And it just it goes back to the point of like, when you’re talking with a lead, who might be a really good lead, that actually in a way will filter the people out. Because you don’t want that person who wants to figure everything out themselves as a client, you want the person who, maybe they’re comfortable logging into their site, but you don’t want them to be the designer. So if they see like, they see your knowledge, your expertise, and then they trust you to take it from there. But they’re busy, they don’t have time for this, that’s great. Like, what a great way to, to kind of funnel out an ideal lead right there. So it is kind of a funneling metric to when you have content, that’s then followed up by something that you can add on there.

Josh 50:50
That’s definitely I mean, that’s, we’re talking about email list, you know, one on one, but I guarantee a lot of people listening to this right now have not yet started an email list. And that’s okay. Like, it’s the good news is, it’s never too late that it’s the time to start is right now. Yeah, if you could have done it years ago, that would have been awesome. But it’s okay, you can still start. And the other thing is, is if you have all of your clients in a some sort of client portal or something, you can always import all those clients to an email campaign to an email marketing software. So that’s what I did, when I would the very few emails I did with InTransit studios, I just I uploaded my, I think I had like 78 or 79 clients at that time on here. And then I had another 40 or 50, that were either previous clients or good leads, and I did a little bit of basic segmentation.

Josh 51:38
But yeah, that’s all crucial, man. So a lot of good tips on list building, I do want to intertwine Divi here. But I think it’d be really worthwhile putting a cap on this with building a list. And I think that’s through automation. I think one great way to avoid some of the stuff you talked about with like a surprising somebody being surprised about well, why is he emailing me? Well, if you set up an automation, in your email that when somebody subscribes or they download something that maybe an hour later, they get, Hey, I just wanted to see, you know, thanks for downloading this, or I’m really excited to help you in your journey. Here are some additional resources, if you even just have that follow up, what a great way to introduce things. And it’s very different than just somebody signing up for something and then a couple days later, they get hit with a promo. So that’s actually one thing I’m literally working on right now actually funny, like the timing of this is crazy, because tomorrow morning, I have scheduled out to build out a few different sequences for people who buy a course, versus people who sign up through the podcast like I’m building out these automations in MailChimp, because I use MailChimp as well. So yeah, what are any any thoughts on automation before maybe we put a bow on stuff with with where Divi can come into play with this?

Tim 52:50
Yeah, definitely. And I’m actually in the process of redoing my welcome series as well. And so yeah, part of what I’m saying is kind of things that I’m in the process of also implementing and everything but yeah, even if it’s like you said, one email, just one email that introduces yourself and that sort of thing, because depending on how they they subscribe, they may not know much about you. So my case, they might have just done a Google search found an article saw a freebie and said that looks cool. Boom, they don’t know anything else about me. So if all of a sudden I start, you know, sending them like my promotional emails that I sent, you know, everyone you know, segmented based off of what they have done or haven’t done on the site, then all of a sudden they’re like, Well wait, what like who is this again? Like, why am I getting this? Introduce yourself? And pro tip, which I’m sure Josh you already have this planned or have done this because you do this type of thing a lot. Have a picture of yourself like it’s crazy to me how so many websites and companies and stuff out there don’t use images of themselves very often and again, Josh to you know, pat you on the back you you do a amazing job with this. Like people trust someone more when they know who it is. Just by having a picture like you’re building that trust

Josh 54:15
That’s true. And I’m only my ward with myself with this I’m like, I’ve probably looked like a total douchebag I look like I’m vain because there’s pictures of me all over the place. It is a little bit different with my sight compared to like your brand because Divi life is kind of its own brand. Whereas Josh Hall co there’s one guy who Yeah, websites about so of course, like when you have a personal brand, it gives you some more leeway but even with a business like a web design agency, having some personality to it is key. I mean, look, I I’m recently new on Instagram, if anyone wants to join me on there, just search Josh Hall co I’m finally like way you know, multiple years late to the party. But finally getting into it. I’m really enjoying it. And I do follow a lot of profiles where I think some of these people are my students, but I I don’t know, it’s just an agency name that I don’t recognize. There’s no like, I don’t even know who this is. So there’s a lot of power in that I met.

Josh 55:06
Yeah, I’m actually working on some different emails for my footers for my emails that have the picture of me just to establish that trust. The other thing about that apart from, you know, sharing who you are, and a little more information is also the resources you have that people don’t know about. Like, I have to remind myself constantly, a lot of people are coming to my courses and my content. Now, they don’t know what I did three or four years ago. So like, my most popular video and tutorial is on manually might might listen to me, manually migrating WordPress, easy to type out tough to say. But I think we were on DB chat together when I said I was gonna do that tutorial years ago. And that’s like, by far my biggest tutorial. And somebody who is has been my student for about a year now, recently, he was asking about migrations, and I sent him that and he was like, dude, I didn’t even know you had this. Like, it reminded me, I should probably set up an automation so that when somebody joins a course, or joins my list, I just let them know, like, here’s some of my top resources you might not know about. Or it’s a good reminder to people who may have seen that three years ago and are like, Oh, I want to I might need to add or bookmark it.

Tim 56:17
Yeah, and that was that’s actually a good I wanted to circle back to this, we kind of started talking about it. But yeah, people forget, or it’s all about timing. And so you It’s like when we send emails, we kind of assume that everyone reads everyone every email and sees it and stuff. But especially when it comes to value like your, your tutorials, Josh, that you mentioned, or, you know, a freebie or something like that. Like Don’t be afraid to promote it multiple times, not necessarily multiple times in a row like that, too. But also like, you know, for example, with I have a free plugin, Divi coming soon plug in? Well, I assume that everyone knows about that, right? Because I’ve promoted a lot. But if I were to do an email blast today, and say like, Hey, don’t forget about my free coming soon plug in, I will have a flood of people going to download it. Even people that saw the email, and we’re you know, have already received the same email multiple times, because it’s all about timing. And someone who, you know, saw it before, maybe they were busy, didn’t really have time to check it out. When they saw the email just wasn’t important to them at the time. And now I’m catching them at the right moment. Yeah, with the email, or now they actually have a need for that, where before they didn’t need it. But now they’re like, Oh, this is perfect. I was just thinking I needed to go and install a coming soon plugin for the site I’m working on. And so people yeah, it’s like I do that to where I’m like, Oh, yeah. Like everyone already knows about that. I don’t want to keep you know, I don’t want to beat a dead horse, which is a terrible, terrible phrase analogy,

Josh 57:48
I don’t know where that came from? Yeah, but what kind of messed up person who came up with that, but I know what you mean, man. Yeah, there really is a lot of value to that just. And I think it’s probably an important mindset to have as a business provider. And as a business owner, and you know, a web designer, marketer, whatever. Not everyone knows everything about you, your business and all your services. So you do need, it’s probably going to be very repetitive for you. But that’s okay, particularly when it comes to new clients, because they’ve got a lot to catch up on, and you want to at least highlight the most important things that they might be interested in.

Josh 58:22
So yeah, I think that’s really, really important. I think automations This is where bringing in any sort of segments or sequences for automations can be really key because you can kind of set it and forget it when somebody joins a list to automatically have like MailChimp, I think does a great job. I’ve been playing around with the journeys, because i don’t know i don’t i don’t even tell you, Tim, I literally just launched a few days ago, this new funnel that I created, because the problem I had was I realized I’ve really got a lot of different customers and students in different journey, like different phases of the journey in web design. I’ve got people who are learning how to build websites, in which case, I can’t really talk about some of the higher end six figure scaling type stuff, because they’re just learning how to build a website.

Josh 59:08
Then I got people who are starting their web design businesses and growing and then I’ve got people who are already making 40, 50 $70,000, whatever. And they want to get to six figures and go higher and stuff. So my messaging between those people has to be really clear. So I just created this funnel. And each one of these has different segments for each are different sequences for each category. So I’m super excited to see how this plays out the better. That’s kind of the line my customers in there. But the same idea can apply to a web designer with clients. Maybe you have a series or sequence of emails for people who are startups and don’t have anything need a website. Then you have people who have an established business who have a website, and then people who are have a really good web presence, but they’re adding more like you could totally funnel and categorize your clients via email and have different type of marketing to them.

Tim 1:00:00
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And kind of circling back to the automation side of thing as well. Yeah, one thing I recommend doing is, is dripping out. So like, we mentioned having at least one, like welcome email introducing yourself. But ideally have a series, a wealth of welcome series that’s dripped out, you know, over the course of, you know, I don’t know, a week, depending on how many emails you have in the series, no more than one per day, and then maybe even spread them out every other day. And have some sort of a resource every time. So rather than saying, Hey, here’s, you know, five amazing resources, give them one at a time. Because it’s like that rule of seven, right? It’s like indoctrinating them, and being like, Oh, my gosh, this Josh Hall guy, like, he has so many great resources, like, this is awesome. But if you send them all at once, well, then it’s like, Well, okay, like, you know, they might click on one or two, and then that’s it.

Josh 1:01:05
Dang it. Now, you just challenged me because I have in those sequences on all those, I have it set to where two days later after they sign up to get my free guide for because I like create a little action plan for each one of those. Two days later, they get some of my top resources. And it’s like, subscribe to my podcast, here’s my YouTube, and here’s some recommended tools. So now they can maybe I should break those out. And then have one email dedicated to the podcast, one email to the YouTube channel, one email to, you know, talk tutorial or, you know, recommended tools. Yeah.

Tim 1:01:37
Yeah. And you can even you know, test it out and try different versions and stuff.

Josh 1:01:42
And I will say to, maybe you’ll back me up on this, Tim, everyone, I think, is probably getting overwhelmed at this point. With all a bunch of ideas and strategies, I would say just start simple. Set it up, do basic tagging, basic categorizing appliance and like one welcome email, just get it go on. Because if you try to create all these sequences and automations, it can be very overwhelming and time consuming.

Tim 1:02:06
Yeah. And on that note, too, one thing that I’ve I’ve heard recommended, and as I kind of was doing this by accident, but now it makes a lot of sense. Where Don’t you know, for like, the very, like, you know, beginning of the series, maybe you know, it’s you set it up as the welcome series, but for other emails, send it as just a normal broadcast and a normal blast, then if it does, Well, okay, now you can then take it and include it into the series and just tack it on, because it’s like, Okay, if I create this really cool freebie. And like I said, I don’t want it to just not be promoted. Again, I want to build a promoted several times. Well, I can make it part of the series. Yeah, I know that, hey, this sub decline worked really well. It got a lot of open rate.

Josh 1:02:50
Yeah, repurposing content. Oh, it’s huge. And it makes you feel better, because it’s like, there’s nothing worse than spending a lot of time in something and then promoting it and feeling like Oh, now I gotta do something new. You know, I’m like, done with this. There’s no reason not to re promote and repurpose other stuff.

Tim 1:03:07
Yeah, exactly. So yeah, that’s something that I heard when it comes to automations is, don’t just write it as an automation, send it send it first and then see if it does well, depending on what it is, if it’s a part of a welcome series, and it’s like, and then here’s the next part of the welcome series. Here’s my YouTube. Yeah, well, that’s a little different. But

Josh 1:03:26
I don’t know if there’s any other platform or program or anything that’s more miserable than email marketing. Like, there’s no matter what platform you use as far as MailChimp, ConvertKit, whatever. There. It’s so detailed with tracking, and it’s very clear, what’s the open rate, you can do A B testing, where it’s like, let’s try half of the list with this title, half of the list with this title, should I put an emoji in the title? Maybe not, there’s so many tracking features that you can really have some fun with. And of course, you can completely derail yourself and go too far with but there really is there’s so much like measuring and analytics, that it can be really beneficial and really helpful to to kind of see what works and then stick with it. And honestly just have some fun to like, I’m really trying to have fun with email.

Josh 1:04:15
I’m trying not to let like one thing I’ve always struggled with is to keep my I mean, I’m always who I am. But I’ve always talked a little bit different on Facebook than I have on Instagram versus email. Like I’m really trying to just be who I am 100% of the time on all these different platforms. I mean, of course you want to, you know, please the Google robots and everything. But at the end of the day, you’re talking to a person so how would you talk to them? Like you don’t have to be overly stuffy or overthink it just if you’re talking to your clients, how would you talk to them? Have you met with them in a coffee shop? Talk to them like that in an email and it really goes a long way?

Tim 1:04:49
Yeah, that’s actually something we talked about in a recent Divi chat episode with like, content marketing, but I think it applies to email and really any type of marketing Yeah, social media, like you’re saying, Josh is finding your voice. And that’s something that just happens from from doing it. It’s like you You, you have to get out there and start publishing content, writing emails, creating posts, and you kind of find what that voice is.

Josh 1:05:17
Yeah. And I was just gonna say sometimes saying it out loud, is really, really helpful. And I’m not sure how you do this, Tim, whether you’re like marketing emails, but I tend to write something. And then if I say it, and I read it out loud, it sounds a little like, canned or like, I don’t talk like that exactly. Like, when I did my recent, like last call for the for the webinar sale, or this promo promotion for the course. I read it. And I was like, I don’t wish I would say that in real life like it. I think it was something like don’t miss your last chance to purchase this course. And there were some stuff that I kept. But the the start of the email, I was like, how would I say this? If I was talking to them, I would probably say, hey, just wanted to pop in, remind you, you know, since you popped in for the webinar, you get a special discount, I want to make sure you don’t miss it. And that’s exactly what I wrote instead of being like, last chance, hurry. Now, you know, like the salesman type of thing that we all gravitate towards when we’re creating marketing, it’s so easy to get to that mindset.

Tim 1:06:19
Yeah, and sometimes I’ll I’ll kind of, I’ll slowly start going that direction with like, you know, over time, and then I like look at my, like, open rates and click through rates and stuff like that. And then it’s almost like, Alright, like, like, re realigning myself to that, like, you know, straightforward, you know, non salesy in almost like taking a step back. And then all of a sudden, it’s like, my open rate and stuff, like, shoots through the roof and stuff, because I’m able to kind of, like, yeah, take a pause, or like completely, you know, move away from, you know, what I was doing previously, and just like, cut through to, you know, being really straightforward, yeah. Down to Earth. And then all of a sudden, that kind of like, takes people off guard. Because you’re like, yeah, you’re just, it’s like refreshing. And there’s a quote, there’s

Josh 1:07:12
a quote that I know you’re very familiar with, that is so perfect for email marketing, if you want to hit everybody with that, quote,

Tim 1:07:19
I will hit everyone “people love to buy, but they hate being sold to”. And so and that’s something where I have to remind myself of a lot, because it’s like with email, I’ll start to see if I know how successful email is, it makes me want to send more and more promotional emails, but then they’ll start to be less and less effective. And it’s like, I need to really get back to Okay, creating content, creating value and stuff like that. And it’s weird. It’s like, I can send an A value email that has no sales call to action whatsoever. But it gets people back to my site for a tutorial. Yeah, whatever it may be. And then all of a sudden, and I’ll see sales come from that. Because I’m not trying to sell them. I’m saying, hey, come check out this free thing over here. And then while they’re there, they start looking around. And they you know, they don’t feel the pressure to like, go and buy something. Yeah. So yeah. And I feel like that’s kind of your podcast, in a nutshell, is because you’re not your podcast episodes aren’t like hard sales for people to sign up for your courses. You’re just delivering value, and people see that value you’re providing and it makes them want to pay you to teach them.

Josh 1:08:28
Yeah, it’s it’s true. And that’s where like, one of the biggest things I’m personally working on is different legions and free guides that will be kind of like the the entry point to the courses, which are kind of a layer two back, I am currently, instead of taking advertising or sponsors for the podcast, I just mentioned a course that might be a follow up to the subject and just letting people know, like, I actually don’t even know what course i’m going to, maybe I’ll do the business course for this one. But just letting people know, like, we’re going to talk about email marketing. And if you you know, really want to build your business, I do have this resource for you. And sometimes I’m going to sprinkle in free ones, but the premium stuff is the best. And that’s where you’ll get access to me. So that’s where like, yeah, like I try to speak on it in without being that that car salesman. And look, this is a good lesson for everybody listening when you do this with your clients, because you want to give free value. You also don’t want to be timid about your solution, because at the end of the day, we’re all providing a solution. And if you’re like too afraid to talk about your services, that’s going to come across to your clients. So if you’re like here’s a free guide for SEO, but I you know, I do have an SEO service and then suddenly, like straight down no tell I’m like, Listen, this comes from my SEO service. Like we provide this we go on a whole deeper level, we do stuff really in depth. If you’re confident about that you can totally be confident without being a cocky salesman. So I just want to I don’t know, I just wanted to mention that. I think it’s a really important point when it comes to sales through email.

Tim 1:09:56
Yeah, absolutely. One thing I do you kinda reminded me of it’s not directly related. But another great way to get people on your list is low ticket paid products. So, for example, freebies can oftentimes attract people that just want free stuff and nothing comes from it.

Josh 1:10:16
Good point.

Tim 1:10:17
But if you have, rather than having a free guide, or you know, a free this free, that free ebook, whatever it may be, just make it really cheap. Because then what this says a couple things. One is, there’s just a basic rule of marketing, where if someone’s giving you money, once, they’re like, whatever, I can’t remember, 10 to 100 times, you’re way more likely to buy something from you, again, like that barrier has been removed, they’ve already, no matter how much it costs, they’ve already trusted you with their money, whether it was $1 $5 $100. And so by having a paid product that they buy, now they’re on your list, now they’re more likely to then buy your you know, your higher ticket item. You know, whether that’s a web design, you know, custom project or whatever, whether it’s a course and your case, Josh. And so, I found that to be really effective, because now it’s like, Okay, well, now I don’t have it’s like 100 people got that, that, you know, low ticket product. Well, that’s those are 100 buyers.

Josh 1:11:26
Yeah, that’s better than 1000 people with a free thing that may not buy a thing.

Tim 1:11:30
Right, exactly. And so and then also, too, I feel like when something is high value, low cost, sometimes it honestly like makes it more attractive, because free is over done

Josh 1:11:44
Yeah. And I’ve actually heard my business coach James Schramko talked about this recently, where his goal is to make people feel like they’re ripping him off. And I love that I love. I’ve had like, I’ve had a lot of students join my courses who have been like, I’m glad to like, finally invest in something because I feel like I’ve been, like taken from you for years. And I just wanted to give back. I mean, that’s, that’s a really interesting mindset shift to have is just make your customers feel like they’re ripping you off. That Yeah, that could be a really great way to go. I think Additionally, on this point, also would be to do some sort of free webinar, or a free training on something. Because if you get people to sign up, and instead of it being something that would be a low cost product, like you’re mentioned, it is something that’s time based, like somebody is going to invest an hour of their time to do this training with you. That’s another different barrier to entry that’s different than your actual your typical quick freebie grabber. That’s like if somebody and they could have access to you live to ask questions, what a great way to upsell, like, I just did my first like public webinar, and I had fourth or 400. And like 13 people sign up. So that was 400 people for us. So I grew my list. I mean, a lot of people were already on my list, but I think almost 50% weren’t. So it was a great way to build the list and get people who were joining me live and we’re gonna watch the replay are much more apt to join the course. And then they were just more invested than somebody who’s just for a quick freebie. So I just another strategy I wanted to throw out there.

Tim 1:13:13
Yeah. And that’s so applicable to your listeners, Josh web designers to be able to, like do a webinar for small business owners that teach him something about, you know, web presence, and, you know, website, whatever it may be. Yeah. And then like you’re getting people that are like small business owners that are signing up because they want to increase their web presence online. And then like, you’re building that value in that trust and so

Josh 1:13:43
yeah, and then you put him in your email channel and and you have a sequence for an upsell. And then if they don’t buy you follow up differently versus the people who buy it’s, it’s all a beautiful thing, when at all when we put all this in action. So yeah, exactly. That’s a lot of value there. Tim, I would love to wrap this up. I know we’re already going on well over an hour, which I’m not surprised. We could probably chat for 10 hours on this but Divi where does Divi come into play with this I’ve always used so there’s a few different ways I capture email I would the webinar I connected it with zoom, and then I use Zapier to kind of glue it in with MailChimp with some different tags. And then I’ve always used I think it’s MailChimp. Gosh, it’s been so long since I installed it. It’s like MailChimp for WordPress plugin that just connects with my MailChimp and I create forms like that. But you can do stuff natively through MailChimp. Where does Divi come into this with like creating legions and stuff like this?

Tim 1:14:40
Yeah, so Divi has built in the opt in module, which will integrate with MailChimp or you know all the most popular email marketing providers out there. However, I don’t use it because you don’t have as much cantrol. I actually use Gravity Forms but you can really use pretty much any premium form plugin will have, you know, a MailChimp integration or Active Campaign integration ConvertKit whatever you’re using and because Gravity Forms lets me use tags and so so I basically with with Divi, I use a combination of Gravity Forms and Divi overlays. Okay, and I basically I put, which disclaimer Divi overlays is my pop up plugin, Josh has done videos on it. I use Gravity Forms inside of a Divi overlay pop up. And the reason why I use Gravity Forms is I can use tags for one thing. So if someone downloads this resource or subscribes from this, I can have it automatically tag them in MailChimp. Which is really handy. And then I also have control over the email that gets sent out. And so for example, if they’re downloading a freebie I can have gravity form send him that freebie right away. And this is there’s there’s kind of two sides to this. Some people will have MailChimp send the email, which you can do, it’s a little more work to set it up that way. Like if you’re delivering some sort of a download or freebie or Yeah, I prefer using Gravity Forms. It’s simpler. But also it’s it’s almost like people that like want the freebie but don’t want to be in your email list. They can’t unsubscribe yet, because it’s like, they’re thinking like, Oh, I want that freebie, but I want to unsubscribe right away.

Josh 1:16:36
Oh it’s a little tricky.

Tim 1:16:38
They’ll have to wait for the first email from MailChimp in order to unsubscribe, because Gravity Forms just sends it through.

Josh 1:16:45
Gotcha,

Tim 1:16:45
WordPress.

Josh 1:16:46
Oh my God, that’s genius, dude.

Tim 1:16:48
Yeah, so that I like doing for that reason. It’s nice. So, always gonna say, Oh, yeah, and then for a lot of times, like, for example, I’ll do, I’ll put it inside of a pop up. And so I’ll say, you know, click here to get you know, the free, blah, blah, blah, the layout for this tutorial, you know that it pops open then has the form inside there. So that’s the way I do it. I would say, you know, whatever works for you, is great. But I definitely recommend having a way to tag. And so because yeah, cuz that can help tremendously with your segmenting and stuff. And so I can send emails. So for example, if I want to promote Oh, this free plugin, even though I’ve it’s several years old, and I’ve sent a lot of emails, I can remind people that I have it, but I don’t necessarily need to send it to people that have already downloaded it and used it and stuff and based off of the tag and segmenting.

Josh 1:17:43
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I was just looking. So probably link to some of these resources. Yeah, grab it. I love gravity forms. I haven’t really used it for signups. But you got me thinking about that for downloads, because I’ve always done my free downloads, the WooCommerce is products. But that gets a little tricky with a lot of different resources. So I’m going to going to kind of firm that up and keep WooCommerce for my courses and paid products.

Tim 1:18:06
Yeah, and I thought about that, too. Using I use Easy digital downloads for my e commerce. And my thought process is one I want to keep it in context so that they can just like right there on the page, go and download it. So like, for example, if someone’s there’s different routes to get there. But for example, someone’s wants my DVD coming soon plug in, they can get there from my plugins page, which has all my premium plugins and then they become soons on there. And right there on that page, it’ll pop open the pop up with Divi overlays with the four minute, so they don’t have to go to another page. Yeah, there’s also this is like getting really technical. And it probably most cases isn’t a big deal. But if you’re sending a lot of traffic, like an email blast to a freebie, for example. Checkout pages are not cached. By nature, they have to be uncashed. And so that means it’s hitting your database a lot. And so you can actually use that more server resources by having all your freebies go through a checkout page.

Josh 1:19:12
Okay?

Tim 1:19:14
If that’s something that I’ve thought about when like kind of thinking big picture scaling and stuff is like I don’t, I want to keep all my server resources for people that are actually doing a product

Josh 1:19:23
That’s a great call. One I’m using is WooCommerce. shoe is a WooCommerce download something like that to where basically anything that’s free people can just download they do have to have an account on my site. But the cool thing about that is when somebody has an account, they can download any of the free stuff with one click they just click so it doesn’t go to you don’t have to. Initially when I set my site up, you had to basically purchase a free product, which I realized was a terrible UX, but But yeah, so there’s definitely quite a few different ways to go about I think, yeah, most web designers could do it straight through Gravity Forms and MailChimp or even The Divi opt in again, there’s not what’s control. So it’s probably not ideal, but if you’re doing yeah get you started if it’s a very low level if you think you’re gonna get 20 signups then sure you could manually tag that many people. So I think it’s definitely a great way to go. So yeah, there’s quite a few different resources we just hit right there that you can integrate with Divi. And do you know like, Is there anything else? There’s like, Bloom. I mean, are there any other like Divi specific resources?

Tim 1:20:27
Yeah, I used to use bloom for some things. I just like kind of general subscribe form. And I hate talking about this. Because I am very much pro Divi. But Bloom is a resource hog actually had my hosting company.

Josh 1:20:43
How dare you, Tim.

Tim 1:20:47
Because of the analytics that bloom has it, it was sending all these requests to the database and bloating the database. And in WP Engine. My hosting provider, even though I was on a dedicated server was saying, hey, like this is dragging your site down like gotcha, we recommend ditching this like okay. So anyways, that’s why I no longer use bloom. I don’t think Elegant Themes would get offended because bloom is is quite a few years old. And they haven’t done any updates to it besides bug fixes here and there. Yeah. But yeah, so that’s, that’s why don’t use bloom.

Tim 1:21:25
Oh, one thing I do recommend doing is if you are going to use the Divi opt in module, even if you can’t do tagging, you can at least if you’re using MailChimp, you can set up different API keys and use them for different purposes. So so if you don’t want to use Gravity Forms, you just want to use the Divi opt in module well when you’re integrating it with MailChimp, and it might be for the other providers to add just Mailchimp’s what I use, find out for sure works, you can in MailChimp set up a bunch of different API keys and label them. And then you can actually segment based off of the API key. So you could in theory, use a different API key for each freebie that you have or even each page on your website. If you want to know like what page that they subscribe from, I have a couple different sites. So for example, I have my main Divi live site that I’ve divvy pop up calm, which is the demo for Divi overlays that Divi hacks, which is the demo for the dv x plugin, and those have subscribed forms in the footer. And I’m just using the Divi opt in module for that. But I have different API keys so I can see even though they’re not downloading a freebie or anything I can see where people are subscribing from based off of the API key.

Josh 1:22:42
Gotcha. A little more technical. That’s cool. That is something you can do. Yeah, the options are definitely enlist they could, it can get overwhelming. But I think goes back to what we said earlier, start simple. And even like MailChimp, for example, has ways where you could create a form and MailChimp and then just embed it in or I know like WordPress has native MailChimp stuff now with Gutenberg, I think so there’s, there’s all sorts of options. But either way, take it simple. I think we’ve covered a lot of good lessons here, Tim with, with how to, you know, create some lead generators for web designers, some of them are unorthodox with scheduling a call on getting an email list or like you said, a cheap, a cheaper type of product that’s going to weed out the quick free beers, hosting a webinar or a free training building your email list that way. I mean, there’s a lot of great resources here. We talked a lot about nurturing that list, segmentation, tagging, which is huge. Make sure your email people who should get emailed certain things, particularly when it comes to any sort of upselling you don’t want to sell something to somebody who already has that product, talked about automations and sequences, which are great, a lot of good tips that you’ve learned in your experience, Tim, so thanks so much for sharing what you’ve done. So far. This has been really, really cool. Before I asked you a final question here, where would you like people to go? Or do you have a certain resource that would be helpful in this regard? Where would you like everyone to go to find you here?

Tim 1:24:03
Yeah, so Divi Life.com is home base for everything. We talked about. Divi Overlays what I use for a lot of my email list building. So Debbie, Debbie pop up calm is the the plugin demo for that site. It’s kind of a demo slash landing page. But yeah, I don’t have any like resources for email marketing. But it is something I’m passionate about. So maybe I’ll have to change that in the future.

Josh 1:24:35
Yeah, I want to get you My plan is I’ve branched into doing web entrepreneur courses. Now I just launched my creating a course course earlier this year. So my goal is to do one on podcasting, eventually email marketing and video marketing. So when the regards to email marketing, if interested, I’m just going to ask you publicly to see if you’d be interested in being a part of that maybe like a webinar or training or something. Oh yeah, stuck in there. Just to

Tim 1:25:01
Count me in

Josh 1:25:02
Maybe we could maybe we could take what we’ve done here and like visualize it and create a map. So, yeah, we love that fan. Sounds great. Final question for you, what would be your advice? Maybe a quick action plan or something. So somebody listened to this, they’re pumped, they’re ready to build an email list. But they’re still feeling a little overwhelmed. What would you What would your advice be to help them just get going?

Tim 1:25:23
Yeah, I would say, start building the list and start nurturing. And some people would say, just build the list. And then you can email them later, which is technically true. However, you don’t want people to forget about you and then wonder why they’re all of a sudden getting emails and they start hitting spam and stuff like that.

Josh 1:25:42
Oh, great point.

If you try to think about it, and plan for it, and perfect it, you’re never gonna do it. – Tim

Tim 1:25:43
Because I mean, it’s kind about like blogging, right? Like the the rule of blogging, when you’re getting started is just hit Publish. Because if you try to think about it, and plan for it, and perfect it, you’re never gonna do it. One of my favorite phrases about all of this is imperfect action is far better than perfect inaction. Right. Like perfection is like the what’s what’s the phrase? perfection is the

Josh 1:26:12
Enemy of progress or

Tim 1:26:13
Enemy of progress. Yeah, that’s

Josh 1:26:15
Also was it Eisenhower, some general that was quoted something to the to akin to like, a good plan executed is better than a perfect plan delayed or?

Tim 1:26:26
Exactly, yeah. And that yeah, that’s Yes. Similar to Yep. imperfect action beats, perfect in action. And so yeah, just get out there and hit publish, hit, email, blast, whatever, I forget what what they call it? Send, send now. And because you’ll find your voice, and you’ll you’ll figure stuff out. If you keep your, your audience, you know, whether it’s potential clients, potential customers, if you keep value as a top priority, then you really can’t go wrong. And then, and sometimes it takes just kind of getting stuff out there to learn what people like what resonates with them. So yeah, that that would be my advice, is just yeah, try to hit the ground running and start sending some emails because you can’t get good at email marketing unless you start doing email marketing as well

Josh 1:27:24
said man, perfect way to end this dude. I totally agree. Tim, thank you so much for your time. I think this is gonna be one of the longest podcasts I’ve done so far. But it didn’t feel that long. Man. I always have a blast talking with you. It’s been I think it’s before we went live. I said I felt kind of like a needy girlfriend because I was like Tim, I haven’t got any one on one time with you and so long so it was great to great to have this chat with him. And thanks again for everything you do. And I’m pumped to see what you continue to do with Divi life and I’m really excited to partner up with you on some email marketing stuff eventually, man.

Tim 1:27:54
Yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks again for having me, Josh. And yeah, can’t wait to come back again. And yeah, partner up on that stuff’s gonna be great.

Josh 1:28:03
Let’s do it before another 130 some episodes. How’s that sound?

Tim 1:28:36
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Josh 1:28:39
Thanks, man.

 

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