Has a client ever asked you this question?
“Why do I need a website if I have a Facebook page or click funnel landing page?”
If you haven’t been asked that yet, you will! Now, I want to help you address that question and share with your potential clients or current clients why it’s more important than EVER to have a professional website which should be the “home” for a business’s digital content.
For this talk, I’ve brought in a repeat guest and one of my favorite minds in the industry, especially when it comes to digital strategy, Wes McDowell, who’s YouTube channel just surpassed 6 million views!
He shares his thoughts on how web designers and marketers can use their websites alongside social media and other digital platforms in 2021 and beyond.
This conversation will not only help you utilize your website alongside your other digital entities but it’ll help you feel confident to handle clients who are hesitant to invest in their website.
In this episode:
00:02 – Podcast prelude
02:20 – Review shout-out
04:05 – 10 Step Action Plan
05:01 – Greeting to Wes
07:46 – Podcast to YouTube
09:57 – Wes’ perfect client
10:55 – Why focus on site
14:52 – What a funnel is
16:48 – Owning your stuff
19:10 – What Google likes
20:39 – Content on site
21:57 – YouTube strategy
27:47 – Using other platforms
29:31 – Wes’ perspective
31:54 – Seasonal activity
33:28 – Design thoughts
38:44 – Share the “How”
44:37 – Platform suggestions
50:13 – Being challenged
52:39 – Camera adjustment
55:39 – Find Wes
57:38 – Being intentional
This episode sponsored by Josh’s 10 Step Action Plan to Build and Grow Your Own Web Design Business
Connect with Wes:
Featured links mentioned:
Episode #137 Full Transcription
Welcome to the Josh Hall Web Design Show Web Design Show helping you build better websites and create a web design business that gives you freedom and a lifestyle you love. Hey, friends, welcome into Episode 137. Super, super excited about this one, because I’m bringing on a repeat guest to the podcast. This is somebody who is absolutely one of my favorite humans in the web design and digital marketing strategy world. This is Wes McDowell if you don’t know him, he is a website strategist. And he is I think, one of the the top minds when it comes to how to use your website alongside all of these other digital marketing platforms. And that’s exactly what we talked about in this episode, I thought it was a really great time to bring him back onto the podcast, to talk about how you can use your website and in particularly for your clients, how they can use their websites, alongside all of these other digital properties that we all have, whether it’s YouTube videos, or Instagram accounts or Facebook, I mean, a lot of people have like Click Funnels and landing pages or core sites that are outside of regular websites. And one of the questions a lot of my clients had was, Why do I need a website if I already have a Facebook page or landing page somewhere?
Well, in this episode, you’re gonna hear a lot of thoughts as to why you a website is more important than ever. And I think what’s really exciting about this episode is you’re going to hear and get a feel for kind of what to tell clients when they ask you that. So I would listen to this episode with a couple different lenses. Well, I meant to say, listen with a different ear, but you get me I would listen to this from approach of what you’re going to do with your site. But also, every single one of the points that Wes and I dive into here are things that clients are going to ask you and that hopefully will empower you to kind of know what to tell them. So I say all that to say I’m super excited to hear how this one helps you out and empowers you. Wes, again, is just one of my favorites. He’s such a wealth of knowledge. He’s such a fun guy to talk to. I just feel like he’s just really has a great mind for strategy as well, which is so important. So can’t wait to hear how much value you’re going to get from this one.
Now before we dive in, I actually wanted to do a quick podcast review shout out. It’s been a while since I’ve done one of these but Ellen cake eight recently left a review on the podcast and it was so great. I just wanted to share it with you real quick. She says best web design podcast, Josh, this podcast continues to be my go to for web design knowledge and inspiration. Whenever a new episode comes out, I usually move it to the top of my podcast feed and listen to it as soon as I can. I love that Josh goes very in depth into topics that he talks about. I feel like he’s truly trying to help web designers as much as he can and that he cares about his listeners. Ellen thank you so much for that review it it really means the world to me to you know to hear that review and see but also what you said at the end you know Ellen mentioned the care factor with this and I hope you listening to this feel that as well.
I I don’t know how long you’ve listened to this podcast. But if you go for a little while I hope you uncover the fact that I am not a typical entrepreneur who’s out to get rich quick kind of thing that is not what this is about. I am truly passionate about sharing my expertise and knowledge that I’ve learned in a decade of building websites and starting and growing a web design business with you so that you can do the same and I know that’s kind of the tagline but I truly mean it and it really it means the world to me to get a review like that and to hear that so if you are like Ellen and you’re loving the show, please leave a review on Apple particularly if you listen there it really does go a long way I read them people read them It helps out with me growing the show and I don’t take ads for this show. So I mean technically I don’t make any money off the podcast aside from it you know passively going into my courses so it would really mean a lot please leave a review and Ellen Thank you for taking the time to do so you You made my week with that.
And last thing real quick before we dive in no course I’m going to promote on this one I wanted to say I recently launched a brand new 10 step action plan for you depending on where you are in your web design journey. You can go to Josh Hall co slash get started all one word Josh Hall co slash get started. And from there, you’ll be able to choose which free 10 step action plan is right for you. You’ll either be able to go down the path towards learning how to build websites, starting and growing your business or if you already have a web design business that you want to scale to six figures and beyond. I created a 10 step action plan for you just go to Josh Hall co slash get started. Choose What’s one is right for you. And I’m excited again to continue on to help you in your journey. And now without further ado, let’s talk about how you can use you and your clients websites alongside social media and all other digital properties in this day and age with my man Wes McDowell.
Wes, welcome back on to the show, man. So good to have you back on.
Thank you so much, Josh. Good to be here again.
Yeah, it’s been it’s been a little while, shoot off to look back at when your first episode was, I think it was like in the 40s or 50s, that you’re, you’re on the first time. So we’re well into the hundreds now, it’s awesome to have you on again, you are, you are one of my favorite examples of a lot of things on the online world, you have a thriving YouTube channel, you have a lot of different stuff going on. But you are really good at conversion based design and mixing social media with websites together. So I’m really excited to talk about the importance of websites and what you’re seeing with a lot of your students and a lot of your customers. Now, before we get into that, though, man, do you want to let everybody know maybe who hasn’t heard your first episode? Where you’re based out of and I’m curious, when somebody Meets West McDowell and they ask you what do you do? What do you tell them? Because I imagine it’s kind of hard to summarize what you do.
Yeah, that’s one of those. Well, first of all, I’m in Chicago right by Wrigley Field. But yeah, that question is always a tough one. It’s like, my mom will always try to tell her friends what I do. And she’s like, it’s something to do with the internet or you know, something like that. Basically, I tell people, I say help small business owners master their own websites so that they can use it as a tool to get them more business, generally more clients, being service businesses.
Perfect, very concise. Yeah, my, my wife and I, we’re building a house right now. And we’re in the well, we just recently had like the blueprint meeting and construction meeting with a job supervisor, and I was a blue collar, dude, I was a cabinet maker. So I can relate to those guys. But it was funny, because he asked me what I did. And I was like, Alright, how can I sum up what I do so that he’s gonna understand I was like, well, I, yeah, I teach online courses to web designers. And he kind of looked at me and then the other guy who is in the process with us, who kind of knows me, he’s like, he has an online business. And he’s like, Alright, alright, so yeah, sometimes I guess it depends on the room. You’re right on how you explained it. I was always curious, because you do a lot of things. And yeah, websites are critical, man. But first off, I just wanted to give you a quick shout out. And congratulations on your YouTube channel. 6 million plus views, which is awesome. You’re closing in on 150,000 150,000 subscribers. Man, congrats. That’s awesome.
Thank you so much. It’s surreal for sure to think of that many people have seen my stuff. So I can’t I still can’t get over that that number.
And by the time this comes out, this may have already happened. But you share with me before we went live. If you’re open to share it. Now you’re going to take a break on the podcasting side of things right and just focus on YouTube.
I am Yeah, so I don’t know when this is coming out. But basically, we’ve got enough episodes to get us to, I believe around the end of the year. But at that point, I am retiring it. I’m not saying it’ll never come back. But basically, at a certain point, you do have to take an inventory of what’s working in your business and what’s not. And we talked a little bit before we went live here, my numbers weren’t bad. They’re just they’re not anywhere near my YouTube numbers. And when I think about the time I spend, wouldn’t I rather put more time and effort toward the thing that’s reaching? I don’t even like more than 10 times as many people. Yeah, you only mean like it’s it’s extra work for a teeny tiny fraction. It’s the Prater principle, right? Do the 20% that’s going to get the 80% of the day, the podcast was just that was not the 20%. So
Well, it’s a great business lesson right off the gate here, man to focus on what is working in your business and is going to yield the biggest return on investment. So I’m excited for you, man. I mean, your YouTube, like I mentioned is already crushing it right now. So my gosh, when you give all the attention that your podcast has got, once you, you know, invest even more into YouTube, I can’t imagine where it’s gonna go from there. So that’s really cool. And the beauty about your podcast, and I think everyone listening, if you’re getting into any sort of content marketing, just because you pause something or take a hold on it, it doesn’t mean that like you’re gonna turn off your podcasts, all those episodes are still there. So I’m sure you continue to repurpose those and send people back to them, or use those as you know, content moving forward. Like there’s so much benefit to having something there that can service for a very long time. So, so yeah, that’s exciting, man. Yeah, that’s cool. And I know we talked about the differences between our audiences, you know, I’m really helping web designers, you are helping web designers, but you kind of let me know your real. Your key, actually. Perfect question to kick us off here. What is your key avatar? What’s your what’s your key customer avatar? Because I think you have a different perspective on websites and social media than maybe I do with web designers. So yeah, who’s your perfect customer?
Yeah, great question. So basically, you cater To the web designers, I cater to the small business owners who really can’t afford to hire a web designer for themselves. So I’m basically showing them all the little things they can do on their own website, to increase those conversions and what to do to increase the traffic, so people can find their website. And then once they’re there, they can convert. So yeah, I’m really speaking to that end user, the end business owner.
Okay, so this was going to be my first question, but perfect segue to this question, which is, let’s pretend I’m a business owner, who’s fairly savvy, I’ve got some social media, and maybe I have a website, but I don’t really pay much attention, and I haven’t invested in it. If I were to tell you, Wes, if you were coaching me, and I said, Why do I need a Why do I need a website? Why do I need to focus on that when I have a thriving Instagram or a thriving Facebook or or a different channel? Like why? Why should I focus on a website? What would you tell them?
Yeah, well, it’s really the difference. I think, between having a marketing department and a sales department, I think of social media as the marketing, it’s the driver to get people, it’s to get your word out, it’s to get people over to your sales team, which is your website, that’s where you can really control the conversation in a linear way. Because let’s think of social media, not only are you competing with everything else that’s going on there, right, the cat photos, the the food, photos, the reels, all that kind of stuff. But you’re also competing, if you’re just looking at your account, as doing the job of your website. It’s very scattered. They’re scattered information in a grid, where people just kind of pick and choose Allah carte what they want to see. Versus right, they come to your website, where you can very smartly layout a case from top to bottom, have all the right information that a person needs to know to be convinced. can’t really do that on social media. Can I mean not as not as well?
Yeah. Wow, what a great analogy. And what a great way to visualize that. I’ve never heard that before, Wes. But I completely agree that that really set off my idea of lightbulbs just going left and right. Because I’m first of all, I’m gonna rip that off. That’s awesome. But I’ll give credit where credit is due. But it is great, because it’s so true. Social media often can engage and inform. But at the end of the day, if somebody’s gonna read a Facebook posts and invest $1,000 in a program or service for small businesses, probably not, they need to go somewhere. And as you know, as a Facebook ads guy, I know you have some resources on that. I know that’s not your main thing. But it is something that you’re well known for, unfortunately, or not. But a lot of people are going to do ads, and what does an ad need to do? It needs to send somebody somewhere. So it should go back to the website. Is that something that you you’ve really told a lot of business owners to to help switch their mindset is that social media like the I guess, in the analogy of like a tree? It’s they’re kind of the branches that extend out but then at the end of the day, you’re the trunk is what holds it all together? Which is the website is that you don’t have to use that analogy. But is that kind of what you try to help your clients and customers change their mindset to?
Yeah, for sure. And like, I like your analogy with the tree. But like, I think of it like the hub and spokes to is another way like the the outside of the tires, like all the different traffic sources. But the middle, you’re sending everyone to the middle, you’re sending everyone to your website, where again, you can control that conversation. And yeah, I mean, social media is not a replacement for your website. It just isn’t. And yeah, you you brought up a good point, when you do paid traffic paid ads, rather, you need to send them somewhere. I get this question a lot on YouTube comments, people, like, especially on my Facebook ads videos, they’ll say, Do I need a website for Facebook ads? Yeah, like you can’t just send them. I guess you could send them to your Facebook page or your Instagram page. I’ve never tried that. But that’s not a good experience. And that’s certainly not set up for conversions, meaning that ad is going to fail, and you’re going to lose money on that ad.
Yeah, good call. What are your thoughts about some of these like Click Funnels? Like I know, a lot of people just want a landing page for ads or Click Funnels versus an actual website. I think you probably already know how I feel about that. But what’s your take on that? As somebody who is working with a lot of di wires, and business owners who, you know, maybe they maybe they don’t necessarily need a full blown website, but of course I recommend they at least have a home. But yeah, what are your thoughts on like Click Funnels and some of these other landing page style builders and platforms versus an actual home website?
Yeah, well, so first of all, there’s a big misconception about what a funnel actually is, like a lot of people I’m sure this audience is all very aware, but my audience is a little less savvy. They’re just more small business owners. They hear the word funnel, they see the click As marketing of yours, one funnel away, a funnel is not a piece of software. Right? That’s the important thing that people need to understand. A funnel is just that start to finish kind of map roadmap of getting people to into your world, and then giving them all the information, giving them everything they need in order to make a conversion. So when we talk about something like click funnels, I think of that as more or less a, like a stopgap measure of kind of like, like a website with training wheels, if you will. Everything’s kind of built out already for you. So you don’t have to think too much.
The problem with these things is first of all, is expensive software, like I think click funnels is, I haven’t looked into it lately, but I think it’s very expensive. From what I heard last couple 100 bucks a month, I think. And the other thing is, these websites that Click Funnels will give you generally look very Click Funnels, right, they look like a sales page that just makes you look like a used car salesman. With your business. It doesn’t make you it just doesn’t look like you’re going to like you’re going to be in business five years from now at all. And that’s where the damage comes in. And you can have all that sorry, you can have everything you can have on a quote funnel like a click funnel on your own website. And thanks to every all the tools we have access to now you know your audio, people listening to this know how to make websites. But even the ones who don’t, there’s things like Elementor. Now, just as easy to make a website on your website, as it is to make one on click funnels or on Wix or something like that.
Yeah, especially when it comes to a sales page or a landing page. Yeah, I’m a Divi guy, your Elementor guy, but a lot of my audience now are using Elementor and some other builders as well that the principle remains the same though. there’s a there’s a huge difference in something you own and something you build off of WordPress, which is why I love WordPress, it’s open source, I’m not worried that they’re going to shut down my site one day, there’s also when it comes to websites versus social media. I’m not sure what you’ve seen on this. But of course, we’ve all seen accounts getting deleted or pause no matter what it is, we’re in a very polarizing time. And the the least little thing that is said or maybe misunderstood can really have a huge impact on businesses, if they don’t own their platform, and they don’t own their content. So like, everyone has their whole business on YouTube and Instagram, it’s like, good luck.
Hopefully, they for whatever reason, hopefully that you know, something is gonna happen. Whereas when you have a website, you own it. And I think this is such an important point, I think for everyone listening to relate to clients, too, because I’m sure everyone listening is going to have clients ask the same thing. Why do I need a website? If I’ve got a thriving YouTube channel? Or maybe I do all my networking on LinkedIn. But the question is, where do you send them. And I always experienced this on Facebook, in particular. And this was primarily I was thinking back to like, maybe 2012 and 13, or maybe even at shortly after that, where Facebook really, really ramped up from a business perspective in that era. And I got tagged, left and right on Facebook for referrals, which was cool. But I don’t want to get a personal message from somebody to my personal inbox about website stuff. I don’t want them to share my I mean, they could share my business profile, but I wanted them to share my website. And that was the key because someone gets sent to my Facebook page. Again, like you said, Wes, it’s not really the it’s not the ideal sales funnel, like it still is kind of that that middleman between going to my website, whereas if somebody shares my website, boom, there is a clear call to action. There’s a funnel to make sure we get people going to the right place. That’s what I was after. And I think that’s the maybe one of the biggest, important aspects of websites in regards to sharing it on social media, right?
Yeah, for sure. I mean, it’s hard to get people to share what you want them to share, though. That’s the thing. I do find as long as people are sharing you in some way that is good. It’s positive. It’s actually good signals to Google to because they know who’s but what Google likes to reward brands with a really robust online presence. So if they see anyone sharing any of your online properties, ultimately, that does look good on you. And it is an uphill losing battle to try to tell people exactly what you want them to share. But I get you I’d rather share my website to
My counter to that or my the next step I would always take is one shot when somebody would inevitably just tag my personal profile or even share my business profile. I would always say first off, thank you. Thanks for the share. Appreciate it. I always think the person sharing that’s a biggie, but then I would post you guessed it, my website and I would say I would love to talk go here that way we can start the conversation and you’ll find everything you need to know which made me that was actually even better strategy. Now that I Think of it because now suddenly my Facebook is getting shared. And I’m able to share my website and people are clicking off to that. And like you said, Google, Facebook, all these platforms, they know what the heck is going on. So he knows maybe that was actually a better strategy than I thought of. But yeah, that was, that was always the end goal, get people to the website. And I’m curious, a lot of DIY owners that you’ve seen less, are you finding that a lot of people are posting their videos and content on different platforms, but just neglecting posting that as well, on the website?
Probably, I mean, here’s the thing. Most people, when they find me when they get to me are kind of new in the process. And content creation isn’t even really on their radar yet. But it’s very important to do. And it’s really important that that does live on your website, because at the end of the day, when you want to send people to that content, you need to be sending them to your website, so you can retarget them. retargeting is a whole little less powerful now because of iOS 14, but you can still do it, particularly with people who are coming to your website on desktop, you really want to be able to harness as much of that traffic to your website as possible to reach back out for any of those people and serve them Facebook ads, Instagram ads, that kind of thing. Really important to do that.
Totally. If you wouldn’t mind man sharing some of your strategy with your YouTube because I think this would be beneficial for anyone who does any sort of content marketing. With all of your videos, do you? I imagine, ultimately, you want to get people to your website, like we’ve talked about? But do you have any sort of sequences to where one video might lead to another video than to another video then to your website and into a call to action? Or do all of your videos and posts lead to your website? What is what is your strategy look like?
Yeah, so that’s a great question. Anyone who’s doing it, anyone who’s doing YouTube, listen up, because this, this is really important stuff. I paid a lot of money to learn this from Tim Schmoyer Video Creators. But basically, what you don’t want to do is lead people to your website in every video sounds counterintuitive. And I’ve heard other YouTube experts say, of course, you want to lead people to your website, you’re not doing YouTube for a hobby, you’re doing it for business. And while I get that, I would rather get more people watching me on YouTube. And the way you do that is keep people on YouTube. Okay, so you need to what the best thing you can do is follow that like three fourths rule. So out of every four videos, I post four months, so three of those videos will lead right into another video. So at the end, rather than saying, first of all, you want to eliminate that wrap up language that almost every YouTuber does like the thing like, Alright guys, hopefully that was helpful. Those were the five tips. As soon as people hear that they know the video, they know the video is over. And they go to the next video.
So like the first 50 videos on my YouTube channel, you’ll hear that Yeah,
That’s when I get to send them back to my website generally, for a lead magnet, usually my master class, that kind of thing, which leads into my paid program. – Wes
Yeah, but I mean, it’s, it’s a common mistake, because everybody does it. Everyone models what they’ve seen. But and it’s it does feel jarring to just to not do that. It’s like answering the phone and not saying hello, it’s just it’s a weird, like, but it’s a block you have to get over. So what I do is I teach what I teach in the video. And then I say, and, and now I’ve got these these other five tips to teach you it’s going to help you go even further. Here’s the video to help you do that, click there, and we’ll continue the conversation. So it’s just a seamless, go to this next one, and you tell them why. So you have to think of the video, that’s the perfect like either pairing for this one, or the you know, more advanced version or something like that, just you’ll you’ll give them the reason how it fits. And then for the other 1/4 of the videos, that’s when I get to send them back to my website generally, for a lead magnet, usually my master class, that kind of thing, which leads into my paid program.
And are most people coming into that first video or do you find people going into like video number three out of four? Because I’m sure that would feel a little bit different for them if they see a video and then the next one is a call to action versus somebody getting into that first video type of funnel.
Yeah, so the good good point of clarification there. What I’m not really talking about is I’m not making a predefined series of like five videos. Okay, all I’m doing is I’m making a video. And then I’m thinking to myself, what other videos in my library would be a good? Okay, good, good. Next one for this one. So
you’re not doing like a month of four videos as a funnel than the next month of four videos as a funnel. It’s just piecing what ones would work well together.
Yeah, you could do that. But then again, then you get run into the problem. You just said, we’re now maybe they’re coming in at a weird place. Yeah, so they all need to be standalone. But then you need to tell them the next thing. It’s important to know and why it’s why it goes so well with this topic, that kind of thing.
That’s so good man. Cuz I tried two different little like mini series of beginner videos on YouTube. And then they did, okay, like, they really didn’t do great. And it was that thing where they were like part 1234 and five. And I think if people got to part four, maybe they would be encouraged to go to part one, but I don’t know, maybe that would have thrown them off a little bit. So it’s reassuring to me. And I think probably everyone listening if you’re going to do any sort of content, or if you’re going to tell clients to do this, to be able to piece those together and take what you have and kind of, you know, make something that’s going to keep them on that, it definitely makes a lot of sense, because I think we all know now YouTube once watch time, so the longer you can get them to watch the better. Do those principles apply for Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, and other social media platforms as well? Do you know like, if you can still kind of lead people to other posts to keep them on? Do you know, that’s a viable strategy? And if they’re looking at that as well, just like YouTube is?
Well, I do know that every social platforms goal is to keep people on the platform in terms of funneling them like to the next thing. I don’t know that there’s a way of doing that in the same way of YouTube because YouTube is not social media.
Yeah, YouTube, you can do like an end screen and put like a video there at the end. Right. And you can, like it’d be much more intentional about that.
Yeah. So in terms, yeah, I can’t think of a like a good analog for Instagram or anything for that. But other than having them follow you. And then just now they’re seeing all your content and then are going to your profile. And they’re looking through all that. So. Yeah,
Yeah. Yeah. No, that’s fine. No, that’s great. I was kind of curious. I didn’t think there was a really way to, to stretch it too. But an important principle to remember that you just hit on West is these platforms want people on there as long as though they’re willing to be on there. So yeah, time you can keep somebody on there as he is, which is kind of interesting, because Instagram still caps most videos that a minute. I’m still a little surprised they’re doing that unless it’s more of just about the scrolling nature of Instagram. But yeah, I don’t know. It seems interesting to me that they wouldn’t. I mean, I guess you could do longer videos. I’m just now getting into Instagram. Actually, you were one of the ones who inspired me because I saw your stuff. And I was like, Alright, I’ll freakin do it. I’ll finally get on Instagram and utilize it. I just haven’t. But I’m actually really enjoying it. It’s a much nicer place to hang out, then Facebook primarily. And yeah, I admit on Twitter, I have no interest in that. LinkedIn. I just feel like I need to wear a suit to show up there. So I’m not really interested in that as much right now. But I, I know the power of LinkedIn. I’m not sure if you’re utilizing that. But But yeah,
I do. Yeah, what I was doing as a lot of repurposing of content, like I would take my YouTube video, we would make a companion podcasts that have a lot of them. So if it lent itself to an audio format, we’d make a podcast about it. I would post that on you, Instagram and a few ways Facebook and LinkedIn. Almost all that’s going to be going away now, not only am I getting rid of the podcasts, we’re getting rid of a lot of that extra effort for all those other platforms that we’re just not really seeing the value in. So that’s not to say there’s no value in doing it. I’m just saying for me and my business. We’re going where the eyeballs really are and just doubling down on that.
Yeah, that’s gonna be huge, man. Yeah, I’m super excited for you that I can’t wait to see what that shapes up love to do a. We’ll do it next time you come on, we’ll have to do like a look at your YouTube. You know, once you give it full effort and full attention to see what happens with that. Yeah, I was good.
If not, I may be too embarrassed to come back.
Well, that’s our case studies good or bad are always are always good and interesting. So you are on an episode 59 was your first episode, which was fall 2020. I’m curious since then, because it’s been almost a year since that came out. I think by the time this comes out, it may be right around a year. Have you seen any differences for websites now compared to the height of the you know, the COVID and pandemic stuff? Like? Have you seen business owners understand the importance and take websites more seriously? Have you seen people kind of forget about websites? Since as we all know, most you know, most people are very fickle and forget what was going on a few months ago, what have you seen in the landscape of web websites now that we’re you know, fairly past the initial wave of the COVID stuff?
Okay, so what I’m seeing, I don’t know if this really answers your question, but basically during the height of the pandemic, everything was that people were very interested all of a sudden and getting their house in order, right? making sure their website was great, because they had time to do it. Right. So like my online course sales went way up. YouTube views went way up, because people had time to devote to this when they normally were busy doing other things. Now I am seeing a significant drop off in almost everything. Because what a I think it’s because people are out of house finally. And they’re just making up for lost time. Be it’s like hot girls summer right now. And everyone’s out for that reason, too. So I think summertime is just kind of a dip for what we do. I don’t know if you experienced the same thing, but I think a little bit. Yeah, they’re on vacations more. They’re just they’re not. It’s like being a seat like the last week of senior year. They’re just kind of checked out. Yeah. But I don’t know if it’s super COVID related or if it’s just like a natural. So I think
I think after the pandemic last year, I think that’s lent itself just from what I’ve seen, in my experience, that more people are out. I think you’re totally right on that. And everyone is traveling, like, at least stay stateside, I know, I’ve got a lot of students in Canada, it’s a little bit different there. But my family and I like we went on vacation, and I have never seen so much traffic going down to the beach like good. Yeah, it was it was like everyone was. So I do think a lot of people who didn’t travel last year, and stayed put are like extra interested to travel and get out. And maybe people are doing more vacations and more trips. And there’s more going on. I think that’s definitely a part of it.
But that all corresponds to what we do as web designers, and what our clients are going through. Because I think you’re right, Wes, I think we are in kind of the at the time of recording this. We’re kind of at the tail end of summer, which is wild. But I do feel like that’s definitely contributed to what’s going on online. I think business owners are just hanging out with families and doing trips. But all that to say, I always see an influx I did as a web designer, and I do with my brand. Now in the early fall, it seems like that’s when people get more serious into learning and launching stuff. And they get more serious about their businesses traveling is done primarily.
So I would imagine you’ll probably see an influx and I think I will to my numbers across the board have been down a little bit, not only with sales, but views and everything through the summer. So sounds very similar. Actually. I’m quite reassured that no that that happened to you as well, I I hate that that happened to both of us. But it does seem to be the case. And even some of my students have had slower periods through May, June and July here in 2021. And in August, so yeah, I think I think it’s gonna rebound. And I think it’s as all a byproduct of what happened last year with the pandemic. So all that to say we can put a cap on this point. I would not be surprised if website numbers are down. But it is I think it’s seasonal. And I think it’s definitely kind of cyclical with based off of what we just went through.
So yeah, I was curious to, to see what you had seen like that. As far as getting numbers alone, getting numbers up and being prepared for this next wave and fall of 2021. What are your Some are some recommendations for for this, this wave because I do but and the reality is sometimes numbers are down just because people aren’t working as hard. Or maybe they’re traveling like my numbers were down in June because I was on vacation, and I didn’t work the week before or after. So of course my numbers are going to be down to be ready for the numbers to come up. And for things to change. What do you recommend people focus on with their website? Is it to create really good content? Is it to revamp service pages? And your offer is it gets more get more serious about some type of funnel? What are some strategies that you recommend?
Yeah, I would say all of those things. So basically, what you want to make sure your website is doing for you is trust me, I used to be a designer. I still do design, but I used to think of myself more as a designer versus how I think of myself now. So there’s a really common trap a lot of designers get into with their own websites, where they feel has to be a portfolio website. That’s only part of it. Like clients, yes, they’re interested in seeing the work you’ve done. They’re also interested in seeing results and interested in seeing if you’re a real person or not. I can’t tell you how many websites I go to for like web designers who they’ve got some really nice workshops showcased, but there’s no human element to it. Like it feels like I am I hiring someone in my town, am I hiring someone like on the other side of the world, like there’s no way of knowing.
So you really want to make it personable. And you want to convey the benefits that you bring to your clients, which is I think I’m sorry to say but in this day and age, I think that has to bring some element of copy into it like sales copywriting. This is good for two reasons. Because we all know the pain of the client who never delivers this stuff. So if you can bring that in house and you can handle that for them, you keep the whole project on track. And you can do it in a way that’s actually going to move sales for them. So if you can talk about that kind of thing, that we don’t just provide pretty websites. And oh and the other thing is too You shouldn’t talk so much about the technology. Every web designer loves to talk. They used to love to use the word WordPress everywhere they use love, just say like all these technological words. That’s not the important stuff. Right? The important stuff is the results you bring. So talk less about WordPress, talk more about revenue, and ROI.
Great points. Well, such great points west for every web designer to think about and to articulate on their site. I’ve, I’ve seen the same thing. Well, in every one of those points, but particularly with the personality to website, I agree, I still see a lot of web designers who I often say, Who the heck is running the show here, like who are you, I just, I see this brand name. But that doesn’t mean anything to me, I’d love to see who’s behind the brand. I don’t even care where it is. But if you are attracting and appealing to local clients, that’s a great upsell right there. And a plus if because a lot of people want to work local, if they like and trust somebody.
So that’s a biggie. I agree. copywriting is more important than ever. And it is a solution to getting content, which is the main struggle every web designer has have, if you can provide that as a service. That’s great. I know, I think you saw I just had jewels. Dan, one of our mutual colleagues, who’s you’ve been on his show, who’s a copywriter, we really get talked about copywriting. And it really interesting, I think, to hear about the brochure, portfolio mentality versus results and more strategic type of thinking, because that is that is so important. No matter if it’s a service page, I mean, all of your copy on your website. And then additionally, the other thing I wanted to mention is Yeah, when it comes to talking about WordPress, and Divi or Elementor, and the tech stuff, you should not mention that on your website, unless you are trying to work with somebody who has an agency and they’re looking for WordPress designers. Like Yeah, or WordPress or developers.
Like, there’s no reason an average web designer working with businesses should probably even say those things like you could say those things, maybe a layer back, if somebody is interested in what tools you use if they want to edit a website, but generally that can be done one on one, and it shouldn’t even be on the on the front of a website. So I couldn’t agree more. Man, that’s interesting to hear you say that because that’s a big one, it can be a deterrent for clients to candidate because if an automotive shop is looking for a web designer, and they want to get better rankings on Google, and then they see this web designer who looks like a nice guy or nice get nice gal, but there’s WordPress, Divi CSS HTML, they’re like, I don’t need I don’t even know what that means, right?
Yeah, it’s like, Don’t tell me how the sausage is made. Just make it for me, basically. And when you talk about all those things, you kind of make yourself into a commodity versus someone who’s delivering results. It’s the hand hands versus the head principle you want to convey, you want to sell yourself as the as the brains of the operation, not the hands. They’re sitting there coding whatever the client asks for. That’s a good step beyond that.
Yeah. And I’m even thinking it from the if you put yourself in your clients shoes that they’re going to be more interested in somebody saying, I’m really good at WordPress, and I can code like a magician with CSS, or would they be more interested and I can help grow your business and, you know, get better conversions and better rankings on Google, something like that? I imagine that’s a little more appealing, right? Like, we really need to kind of shift our mindset to what is going to be of interest to the client to our customers.
Yeah, absolutely. But then you also have to think of this too, because I do see a lot of digital agency websites that make those kind of claims, you know, will help you grow your business. But then they don’t really say how we need to we need some details, we need to know like, what are the what are the what are the mechanisms in place that help you that or allow you to do this for your clients? Is it the persuasive copywriting? Is it lead magnet development to build your email list of future customers? We need a little bit more information rather than just that big, bold, kind of generic statement too.
That’s a good, that’s a great point, man it. And I think you could back that up in a number of different ways. You could explain how and this is where like you mentioned earlier, case studies. And results can be key because if you do have a couple projects that went really well, and suddenly your old clients are in maybe they used to get like five submissions in their contact form. And maybe now they’re getting like 20 a month or something. Well, that’s awesome showcase that like put that into a little case study and showcase. I imagine that’s the perfect type of thing to to back that statement up, write some actual proof and some more information on that.
Exactly. And people always think that these have to be huge numbers. They don’t. You mentioned five to 21 if it’s five to six, and they do a case study the same way but say like we increase I’m terrible at math. We increase their options 20% which translated into this number of dollars per month. The website was paid within the first couple of weeks, yeah, that kind of language is really helpful too.
It’s true. It’s interesting. One of my favorite examples of a web design agency doing this really well is actually the the agency who does the website for my business coach with SuperFastBusiness. The agency is called Studio One design. And I just went through their masterclass. And it was really interesting, because that whole masterclass was was about some basic principles, but it was really mainly about case studies on their clients, and how they helped increase their leads and increase their income. And it was all based around good design that converts, copy, and then results base, like case studies, like they looked at now these folks are getting, you know, like, triple the amount of email signups than they did previously. We’ve created legions, it’s their sales have gone up. So I think anytime we can, we can do that. That is key. And I think this can be kind of daunting, because when a web designer or anyone thinks about, okay, how am I going to like do a case study? That sounds like a lot of work? Yeah, it might be some work, but it’s so worthwhile. And you can multipurpose that just like your multi purpose in your content, right? Less like, I imagine, you could take a case study, put it on your homepage, it could go into another page, it could go on your social media, like we can really get creative with one piece of content. Yeah, that’s right.
For sure, you can use it. Yeah, you can use it on social, you can use it an email, you mentioned Jules, Dan, he’s now working for me on, he’s interviewing four of my paid students and my paid program to get their stories. And what we’re going to be using though, we can probably use them on the website to somewhere, but we’re really going to use them as in the email campaign that goes out when people are in that seven day buying window of the program. So there’s a lot of ways you can use these. And here’s the thing you said a lot of work. The hardest part is just kind of getting the story from them. These do not have to be long. No one wants to read this in like a long article. They want to see like quick little thinking like an infographic, they want to see quick little charts. How much this did like show the before and after two, or I would say between two and four paragraphs is enough text.
Yeah. Agreed, particularly when it comes to some because you’re still scanning and skimming a case study? I don’t Yeah. Because no one’s as interested in that project. Except for you know, you and your client, like no one else has that level of interest. So they just want to know the highlights they want to know. Okay, what were the results? Yeah. And I think that’s a really important point and a great way to grow. And it really doesn’t, it doesn’t need to be overly complicated. I, one of my toxic traits is I overcomplicate things, to where I have to keep reminding myself, just keep it simple. It starts simple, I can always tweak it and add on to it. But keep it simple for now and just get it done. And I think that that’s probably the mindset anyone would need to have.
But man, some great points here Wes as far as what we can do with our websites, as we lead into what is always typically a busier season. I know, as a web designer, my busiest influxes of jobs always came in around like February and March. And then September and October, those were generally when a lot of businesses really wanted to, to move forward. And from a from a fiscal standpoint, most businesses want to get their marketing budgets out the door and spent by the end of the year, because it resets for next year. So that’s I think, probably why a lot of people like I had clients, if they had a project that started in November, they’d want to pay in full. And I’m like, well, sweet, that sounds awesome. Let’s, instead of like paying, you know, half in November and a half in February or January, so yeah, I think it’s important, but great tips, man, great tips on website stuff.
We’ve already covered a lot. I mean, these are most of the questions I had about the landscape of where websites are now. What other I’m curious, when it comes to you know, we talked about the importance of leading everything to the website, doing our content, investing in really good copy results, different mindset between what we do and tech speak versus the result oriented kind of copy? Where do you see some of these other social media platforms go? Or what do you think is going to be most prevalent? Maybe even as we wrap up 2021. And as we go into 22, which is wild to say, but where do you see Do you see like Tick Tock exploding, I think Instagrams gonna continue to be on the rise is LinkedIn making a comeback with web design, like, Well, what do you what do you foresee in the landscape of, of social media that we might want to consider?
Yeah, so there’s a few few thoughts. I think that Instagram is really trying to be Tiktok they’re really trying to push for that. So that could either backfire on them or it could maybe push Tik Tok out because people I think we’ve seen it happen with like Snapchat, that kind of thing. So when they brought in stories that kind of replaced that functionality. And at the end of the day, like Facebook and Instagram are huge, right? And they could push out Tik Tok if it became the same thing.
So I think when we’re talking about using social media for our businesses, it’s really important to go with the format’s that are getting the eyeballs right now that is reels. It gets a little challenging when it comes to how do you make that style of content for more educational purposes, I see it a lot. Sometimes I cringe at it. Sometimes it’s good, but I really can’t take these like pointing it, you know, points anymore. Like, there’s no reason dancing needs to accompany this stuff. Like it’s not entertaining. Yeah, like, people dance on there, because it’s entertaining. But then when you when you when marketers take it over, and of course ruin everything. And we just like, feel the need to dance and just pointed something it’s the point doesn’t come across any better. It just it feels, what it feels like. It’s like dumbing it down and just kind of being like, what’s the word I’m trying to find? Like?
If I guess I guess it can get a little lame when marketing takes over something that is not meant for business or not meant for anything like that.
So here’s my point, I don’t know where things are going necessarily, like what’s the big one to look out for? What I do know is pick one or two that you have like a natural proclivity for the one to put the platform’s you’re already on the one where you think, okay, I could create that kind of content, and then just really go deep into it. Because what I don’t want you guys to do is what I did, where we’re doing everything, kind of just taking stuff and repurposing out everywhere, be purchasing these one thing, because it doesn’t take a lot of effort. But you need to pick one platform that’s really going to do it for you. For the most part. For me, it’s YouTube, technically not social media, but whatever. Its content creation, so just pick the one that’s gonna be the easiest for you to do and to stick with.
Yeah, that’s, that’s great point. That’s a perfect answer to that question. I will say, though, man, I mean, your your social media did inspire me. And it often reminds me to re engage with your content, like there’s been times where, like, I’ll see, you know, a little podcast dropped or something like, That actually sounds interesting to me, I want to check that out. So I think it is worthwhile sprinkling in as long as like you said, it’s the platform that you’re most interested in, you’re comfortable with, because we do run the risk as every everybody who’s running a business wants to be on everything and everywhere, but you just can’t. So I totally agree.
And I actually think I’m glad that we started with where you’re at in your business with kind of taking a break with the podcast, and really investing in YouTube, because that is a perfect case study and prime example of you analyzing your business, looking at the numbers, and looking at what is really making the biggest impact and the biggest difference and then going all in on that. And I can’t recommend that enough. And it’s it’s kind of what I’m going through now to like we talked about it, I really need to invest more on my YouTube channel. And I’m kind of putting all the resources and preparation for that. And I think every business owner and web designer should do the same. Look at what’s working right now.
Ultimately, this conversation has led to the fact that everything should go to your website. So that’s home base, that’s Basecamp that’s where we know everything needs to go. Now the question is once that’s optimized, we’ve got good copy. We’ve got results oriented, you know, funnels and copy in there, we’re not talking tech speak to clients. We’re really personal. We’ve made it an engaging, fun experience that builds trust and likability, how do we get this out? So I love that I think just that idea of, you know, focusing on what you want and where you want to go and how you come across on those platforms. I know one reason I am enjoying Instagram is I’m intentionally trying not to do the point of videos and stuff I had debated on it and then I was like you know what, first of all, I don’t want to take the time to edit little videos like that or have my now I have a podcast either I don’t want to have him do that.
What I’m doing is keeping it super simple. Like just just like for example, my talk with Jules more recently. copywriting reminds me of the show Mad Men which is one of my favorite shows up Yeah, wife watch. And I just held up a DVD of Mad Men It was like What do you think of with copywriting? This is what I think of it was simple as that there were no yeah, no subtitles just really simple. Here’s my thoughts on it. What do you think listen to the episode to let me just think it was a very quick post. Didn’t take me too much time. But I do find that that’s resonating better than trying to get to corporate in a fun environment.
Yeah, I watched that post from start to finish and it was great. And I would prefer that to just you pointing at something. And again, yeah, it’s just it’s just insulting to anybody listening who does I’m really not trying to be like, be that guy. But it just, it just comes across as we’re trying to shoehorn something into a format that it doesn’t really belong.
Yeah. And I think it’s all right. Sometimes it’s good to be challenged on what you’re doing marketing wise. And I think some people listening are probably doing that. And then, yeah, it’s not we’re not, you know, trying to offend anybody or come down on you. But it is worthwhile looking at this and saying, okay, maybe even just trying something more organic, or I feel like more or more often than not, the more simple things are and the more real and even just a straight video just talking to it for less than a minute, that can go a long way. Because it really is it’s communication, you’re, you’re communicating with somebody on different platforms.
I know. One thing I’ve always struggled with that I’m really trying to get over and I’m, I’m generally always myself everywhere I am. But I do tend to be a little different on YouTube, versus podcasts versus Instagram, versus Facebook. And I’m really trying, and I’m curious if you’ve experienced this Wes, I’m trying to just be who I am 100% on all these platforms. And what I mean by that is, I’m not like, I guess I’m not like a salesperson on YouTube. But I do often, when it comes to social media, I tend to try to talk a little faster and get the point across because I only have so much time, whereas I’m just now I’m kind of just being myself. And then I’ll just, you know, make the point simpler. Do you find yourself struggling with coming across differently on different platforms at all?
I don’t know about coming across differently. But I will you just said yes. In terms of just the rate of speech and stuff. Because here’s the thing with a podcast, people are much more, they’re willing to consume a podcast, with a little bit more space in it with a little bit more personality in it, because they’re not held captive by that podcast. everyone listening right now, what are you doing? Are you walking your dog? are you washing your dishes? Your point is they’re doing something else? Yeah, while they’re listening versus a YouTube video, or something on Facebook. You got to grab them. So I understand the impulse to want to amp it up and be faster and be a little more animated? Because I think it does help. You don’t want to go too crazy with it and come across, like, trying to think like, you know, the guy in the late night infomercial.
Mattresses on sale. Now it was be crazy.
Yeah, right. Right. Yeah, that’s I think that’s what I meant is Yeah, I’m not terribly different. But I do. And I guess you’re right, maybe it is worthwhile being intentional about being quicker and concise and maybe a little more energetic. But I definitely
The camera does take away about half of our new one’s personality. Get anyone in front of the camera for the first time and you’re you will look at yourself, like, you don’t realize how you come across sometimes. So I do feel like when I do, I do. I’ve gotten this I’m doing right now talking with my hands a lot more, because I’m trying to amp up the the energy level, because it does translate into the camera.
That’s a good point. Now, it’s also really important to think about these platforms if you are going to do any sort of content and marketing because you do have to abide by their rules. And I think more importantly, you just set it less, you have to think about what people are doing, when they’re on these platforms. Like if they’re listening to a podcast, you’re right, they’re probably in a car, mowing the lawn, doing the dishes, whatever we can talk for as long as we want as chill as we want. And it’s gonna go over great. This is personally why I love podcasting more than anything, it suits my personality that likes to take my time on stuff and dive into topics deeper and, and not have to rush. Interestingly enough, sometimes I repurpose my podcasts and YouTube videos, the same like I have a podcast go out and then I’d have the video version of it on YouTube. podcasts would go over great, and people would love it.
And then YouTube, I get people saying this video is too long are oh my gosh, to half an hour. And at first I was a little like, freaking I don’t know, fast forward or listen to it at different times. But then I realized it does make sense because they probably hopped on on video, they’re gonna watch, you probably want something fairly concise. Depending on what the what the topic is, you’re going to do a big old video on how to build a element or website, you can take an hour and you’ll be fine. But if it’s, you know, quick five quick tips for Facebook ads, maybe it should be shorter. So thinking about where your customer is, maybe it’s the same customer, but maybe their behavior is different, right between different platforms because we interact with Facebook differently than we do YouTube and podcasts.
Absolutely. I listen to so many podcasts, because I can do other stuff. But I would probably never watch the video version of that podcast like on YouTube either. I when I’m sitting at YouTube, I’m going to watch other types of videos. And I’ll listen to the podcasts that are more long form when I’m out and about. Yeah.
No, it makes sense. It makes sense. I get it. I post these interviews on YouTube. I surprisingly I still have a lot of people that watch them on YouTube. And I think maybe That’s because web designers are often building a website. And they’ll have this going on the I did that when I was building sites, I’d have the YouTube person going. But now I do it with just, you know, podcast apps and stuff. But either way, great point. Think about who your customers are and what they’re doing, depending on what type of content you’re putting out. And again, to put a cap on this conversation, bring it back to your website. I love that. Wes, I think you’ve really given some awesome strategies on this one, man. One final question for you. But before we get to that, where would you like my audience of I know, it’s a little bit different than your key demographic. But if anyone wants to check you out, do you want them to go to your YouTube channel, your website where we’d like them to go?
Yeah, YouTube channel is great. It’s West McDowell. But I think that the thing that would maybe be most helpful for people is, you know, we talked about how you can really make your website sale the right things and be that salesperson for your business, not only for you, but for your clients if you want to deliver this kind of thing. I do have the masterclass. If you go to Wes McDowell com/training, that’s going to basically within an hour, give you everything you need, in order to really strategize the kind of website, that’s not only going to look good, but it’s going to actually say all the right things, it’s going to take a lot of the hard work off your plate, because I’m giving you permission in this, basically, this this blueprint framework to strip out a lot of unnecessary pages that do absolutely nothing for your business, or for your clients, businesses and concentrate on just kind of the core, you know, five or six pages that do the most good.
That’s perfect. Yeah, we’ll have that linked in the show notes, definitely recommend that. My final question for you is more of a personal one about your YouTube. Are you going to do anything different now that you’re giving full attention? You’re going to do longer form videos? What’s your strategy going to look like now on YouTube? I’m just curious.
Yeah, so I’m definitely being much more intentional about the kinds of videos I’m doing. So what I’m, what I’m doing now is once a week, basically come on every Tuesday morning, but I’m adding to that, because I’m trying to because the thing about YouTube is, they kind of will decide for themselves, what you’re known for the most. Yeah, unfortunately, we talked about this before, my Facebook ad videos tend to get the most traction. So I know, if I put a Facebook ads video up there, I’m going to get a lot of views. The bad thing is I don’t sell anything to do with Facebook ads, that is not really what I provide. So what I’m trying to do is be more known as the small business website person.
So I’m making more tutorials, utilizing Elementor starter templates, just basically the start to finish tutorials that will get people who are searching for how to make a website. The idea being not only will they watch that one, but then they’ll watch some of my more. So the the way I’ve looked at it, I’ll backtrack quickly, I’m making three main types of videos, how videos, which is the tutorials, what videos, which are kind of like the five things you need to know are the five tips that these you know the what kind of videos like that. And then the why videos, those are the deeper ones those are the more opinion pieces like our website’s dead. No, they’re not because this, this and this, you know, so it’s not teaching them a start to finish tutorial. It’s changing their way of thinking of it. So the more they get down in the funnel, the more they’re kind of hearing from me as a person and my opinions. So I’m just being more intentional with all of that.
I love that I’ve Well, first of all, I’m going to implement the heck out of that. How What do I that’s great. And I think for everyone listening, even if you just do occasional content for authority building and to give to your clients, that mindsets awesome, because some videos should be like how to do this, if you’re going to tell your clients how to do some certain things. Maybe it’s how to set up my Google Google My Business or something. Yeah. Yeah, what might be okay, like, Well, our programs might you be interested in what tools do we use that, you know, you can expect to use or whatever, why might be, here’s why you should invest in really good copy for your website, and then we can help you or something like that. That’s a really interesting approach to to sales, whether on a website or with content marketing, so…
They want to hear who you are as a person a little bit too. They want to hear some of your opinions. – Wes
yeah, yeah. Because what happens on YouTube is people will search you out based on how to do something. But then if they watch more of your videos, and they like you, they’re gonna want to hear more from you. It’s like listening to you in your podcast, Josh, it’s, they, they want to hear who you are as a person a little bit too. They want to hear some of your opinions. So I want to provide all that. All that gray area in the middle.
Yeah, Well, most people listen to this podcast for knowledge, inspiration. And they also want to know what word I’m going to create on the podcast because pretty much every episode I end up mixing words together and we’ve got like a whole Dictionary of of new words in the English language. So one Somebody is going to catalogue all those and I can’t wait. So maybe listening right now you have Joshisms. Yeah. Yeah, that’s funny. It’s funny cuz I was just looking at my YouTube channel. My most popular video is a Google Analytics overview. And it’s at the time of this has 339,000 views. It’s my most popular video. But I’m not that far into Google Analytics. Like, I just know the basics. And that’s what I shared. And I had no lead gen. There was no, and maybe now after talking with you, maybe I’ll go back and add an end screen to that video that’s like, hey, if you like this, maybe you can, you know, go here. Maybe I’ll do that.
Yeah, we should talk about that video. It’s getting eyeballs. You want to get people to something else after that? For sure.
That’s a good point. Well, I’m super challenge. So yeah, I see. I knew this is gonna be awesome, not only for my audience, but I knew we were going to get into some personal coaching for me too. So always enjoy talking with you, Wes, thanks so much for your time, man. Again, I’m really pumped about you know, how you’re open about pivoting some of the things that you’re doing and focusing on YouTube. I’m really excited to see how it goes. I think it’s gonna be awesome. I think it’s gonna be big time for you. So
I hope so, Josh, thanks so much for having me again.
Yeah. Thanks for coming again. Cheers, man.