Making a beautiful website that looks nice is great; but if it doesn’t convert…well then, we’ve got a problem.

Luckily, there are a few things you can do universally, no matter the conversion goal, to boost your website conversions using some proven CRO (conversion rate optimization) techniques.

In this episode, I’m pumped to bring on founder and CEO of, Kurt Philips, shares his top tips for getting better website conversions and how to sell conversion/results-based services to clients.

We really take a deep dive into what he and his agency have learned in years of refining website conversions into tactical methods and principles that you can apply to your website designs TODAY!

And just remember this, when you can create websites that do much more than just look nice but actually convert…your value as a web designer just went up tenfold!

So up your rates accordingly friends 🙂

In this episode:

00:00 – Introduction
03:11 – Greeting to Kurt
05:40 – How a hard drive evolved
10:58 – Why is conversion important
14:13 – Which site converts better?
17:29 – What does conversion mean
19:01 – Creating the goal
20:27 – How to increase conversion
23:39 – Using reviews and case studies
29:02 – Cracking seven figures
34:09 – Working through the variables
36:20 – Dress to impress
47:49 – Perception is not always reality
53:21 – Perfect amount of stuff
58:09 – Listening is the most important
1:01:29 – Placement of lead generator
1:03:21 – Do the research
1:07:26 – A conversion trick for mobile

Get a Free Website Audit from Convertica

Connect with Kurt:

Featured links mentioned:

Episode #165 Full Transcription

Josh 0:14
Hey, friends, welcome into the podcast. This is Episode 165, where we’re going to take a deep dive into C R O. If you have not heard that term before, don’t worry, I just recently knew of that term and feel like I should have known that a long time ago. It stands for conversion rate optimization. Basically how you get your websites to convert users to buying a product or signing up for a free quote or whatever the purpose of the website is.

Josh 0:43
For this topic, I’m super excited to bring in somebody who quite frankly, knows what the heck they’re talking about. This is Kurt Philip is the founder and CEO of They are a done for you conversion optimization company. And it was a fascinating conversation as somebody who is just more and more been interested in the world of conversions and how to actually make a website, do more than just look nice and actually do what it’s supposed to do to convert. I found this conversation just fascinating through and through, we really do take a deep dive into it. And Kurt shares a lot of practical and tactical advice on things you can do for all of your websites like today, which is really, really cool.

Josh 1:25
Also, one thing that’s been asked of me more recently is how can you guarantee conversion results for clients? And it’s a very, very worthwhile question. If you’re going to say, I’ll help you boost your Website Conversions. The question from the client becomes well, how can you guarantee this and you’ll actually hear what Kurt and his agency do on how they guarantee conversion based results for their clients. That way you can do the same for yours. So I’m super excited about this. I don’t want to waste any time. Let’s get right into this one.

Josh 1:54
Before we dive in, though, if you need some help with conversions, and you just maybe you’re new to design, or maybe you have a nice eye for design, you’re good with copy, but you just really haven’t honed in on how to get better conversions by a website design course is available for you right now that is a conversion based design course. Throughout the entire course we go through conversion based design, from an aesthetic standpoint, from Color Management, from words and typography, from call to actions and really every because quite honestly, every aspect of a website is conversion based. It’s either pulling people in or pushing them away. I want to help you know how to confidently pull people in and how to get them to take action.

Josh 2:36
So if that sounds of interest, my website design of course is available for you right now. It is open and we talked about conversion through and through and it’s honestly I think probably my most fun course. My funnest course my most fun. What’s the right English there? Well, somebody please let me know. Help me out here. Anyway, it’s ready for you. Now we’ll talk conversions in that. And for right now let’s scratch the surface. And we’ll go further into CRO conversion rate optimization right now with my man Kurt Phillips of Let’s go.

Josh 3:11
Kurt, welcome on to the podcast, man. Great to have you on,

Kurt 3:14
Thanks for having me, Josh.

Josh 3:16
Thanks for taking some time to chat today. I’m super excited to talk with you because we’re about to dive into a topic that I am just super passionate and excited by and that’s conversions. You and I were introduced by a guest I had recently recently on the podcast and he was like, Hey, man, you should talk to Kurt. He’s all about conversions. And I was like, Yes, I would love to talk about that. So before we dive into this, this deep dive into conversions and what you’ve seen working these days, why don’t we start off with where you’re based out of? And then when people ask you what you do, what do you tell them?

Kurt 3:52
Well, I’m I’m based out of London, southwest London. And depending on who the person is, and their level of internet knowledge, I guess would depend on my, my reply. So to my parents and my grandparents. I’m an online business consultant, because that comes across as much more digestible than a conversion rate optimisation specialist. Right, because I did used to use that, but then you just get absolutely stared blank. Like, there’s no reply to that or from from my, you know, from, from Baby Boomers and older I find so yeah, that’s how I answer those questions.

Josh 4:31
That’s well said. Yeah, it’s, I think all web designers when I was so now I’m a web design coach. But when I was just a web designer, it was really easy to say I build websites and most everybody understood, okay, I understand a website. It’s a lot harder for me now because I’m like, Well, I’m a coach, kind of a consultant but a podcast or in a YouTuber, so most people are just really confused. So just like you I kind of depends on the room I’m in as to how I’m gonna answer that question, but I like that you said that because it is kind of tricky to answer particularly for folks who are listening who are more of a web entrepreneur than just a web designer. If they’re doing strategy and marketing and consulting, it can be kind of hard to answer.

Josh 5:11
So the reason I like to start these combos off like this is, I think it’s interesting to hear how everyone else answers that type of question. So well said, man, yeah, that’s great. Now, I would love to hear just a little bit of a I think, just to give us some context for what you do. I’d love to hear about your experience with Convertica And just with conversions in general, what is your backstory look like? And when did this, I’m assuming you’re passionate about conversions. When did that come into play for you?

Kurt 5:40
Oh, man, so when I was 15, or 16, which is like 2000 ish. I was one of the first people to get a computer in my school. This is back in I think my computer was a Pentium one 100 megahertz, with like, 250 megabytes of hard drive space or something. So I’ve been online and on they had a an avid passion for computers, when people used to call me a computer nerd at school when I was so far in that it was like weird, you know? So, yeah, that was before Wi Fi that was just as dial up, internet was becoming big. So we didn’t go out and party on weekends, me and my friends would just pack up our PCs and take them around to each other’s house and link them up via local area network with LAN cable directly into each other.

Kurt 6:36
So we could play Starcraft and a few of the other games from the old days. And then, because of those times, there was not a lot of information out there. So it was a self taught how to build websites just by learning HTML for what was available on the internet in the early 2000s. And then, from there, just years of, you know, being interested in the internet and different technologies, I was just always into it. And then I was fortunate enough to get employed by someone who was a businessman, I had a business mentor, but he was my he ended up becoming my business mentor, and still is today to this day, and allow me to understand how to monetize that and look for opportunity from a from a monetary perspective and understanding economics and understanding supply and demand and all that sort of stuff.

Kurt 7:27
So it was a it was a gradual progression from there. But I moved to Chiang Mai in Northern Thailand in 2011. And it was just becoming a internet marketing hub. I guess. A lot of guys can live up there for really cheap, but a super high quality life like really modern apartments for like a grand a month with like 50 megabytes a second internet in 2012. And then awesome coffee shops everywhere. It was a real uni town. So there was a lot of cool facilities for us. And then because of that, there was a lot of networking events and picking each other’s brains and masterminds and all that so became like a little hub of ideas.

Josh 8:11
And side note, Julian, who introduced us who was on the podcast recently. Is that how you guys met initially?

Kurt 8:17
Yeah, through through those networks. Yeah. So yeah, he’s in a different circle. He came a bit later, I think maybe 1516. But But yeah, it was within those those circles cuz I think he’s still out out in Thailand now. And, and yeah, so I was doing SEO, there was the SEO capital world as what we call it back in the day. And then as people got more knowledge in business and became more mature business people, then people started becoming investors, people started becoming big, got into a lot of people pivoted into Bitcoin and in early 2010, and made a shitload and a lot of people just went different transitions all starting from SEO backgrounds, primarily, or internet marketing backgrounds, a lot of coaches out there a lot of course, people and a lot of just online online money.

Kurt 9:09
Because two, three grand out there, you could live a life quality of like 100 150 in the US, it’s really, really, really, really high quality and still is today. And then so I was in SEO and then I started, I was partnered with a really popular SEO guy out there. And then we had a portfolio of businesses where I was doing conversion and I was headed monetization for this business. And then that’s where I really stand this up systems, the processes, do courses on conversion really start to specialize in, in conversion. And and yeah, from there, I I just got a huge passion for it and pivoted into pivoted into conversion only sold off all my SEO assets and then pivoted into that and then converted because now, I think in March five years old.

Josh 10:02
Five years. Wow, that’s awesome man. Well, that gives us a good backstory of your background and kind of your summarized version of your path into web design and into to business into conversions. I love hearing people’s backstories in any type of web design endeavor, because it’s always different. And it’s interesting to hear that you had a mentor that helped you with the business mindset fairly early on, I think that I don’t know of how I don’t know if you’ve appreciated that as much as some people take those kinds of things for granted often, because it’s when you get a business mentor to help you with that mindset early on. That is that is so key. And that’s one reason I do what I do with trying to help people early on, particularly in their journeys with this business mindset. Because as a creative as a web designer, often you work on really nice designs and things that are pleasing to the eye, but conversion tends to come in, like later on in the journey. So I sounds like that’s what you’re up to as well. I said, I’ll go ahead, and you were gonna say something.

Kurt 10:58
Yeah. So he would always say to me, when when we’re doing SEO, back in like 2007, he would always say to me, you got to understand where the users are coming from, and what makes them make a buying decision, you can have a pretty website and make you feel warm and fuzzy about it being pretty an aesthetic and so on. But at the end of the day, if no one’s buying your products, no one’s submitting a lead, no one’s calling the phones, there’s no point and that’s, you know, that was 2007. So that always stuck, stuck with me. And assuming my personality, it was a natural progression to, to move into conversion using data to make, make decisions, and so on. So

Josh 11:41
That’s a great point right there, I figured we would touch on that the idea that something can be beautiful and aesthetically pleasing, but might not actually convert as well. Case in point, I had a colleague who is in the SEO world, he did my SEO stuff for a long time, great guy, super knowledgeable with SEO and back in website stuff, terrible designer, awful designer, which is why I had him do that kind of stuff. But what was interesting is he had designed a site that looks not great in the nicest way to put it, but it actually converted quite well for his client. And then his client got it redesigned to a site that was super modern, really trendy, technically probably looked nicer. But their sales dropped dramatically. After that it wasn’t as as conversion base, or it wasn’t as user friendly for that industry, I forget what industry it was, it was probably catering to, to a demographic that needed a phone number and a by now kind of button.

Josh 12:36
Whereas I think a lot of monitoring agencies tend to make it harder sometimes for people to know where to go or what to do just because it’s creative and modern, whatever you want to call it. But it was a perfect example of like, that site actually didn’t look great. But it converted really well. So that client ended up having him put the old site back up and essentially wasted 1000s of dollars on a redesign that didn’t, didn’t convert well. So I think it’s a really good point. Sometimes something can be beautiful, but not convert well. I’m I imagine you’ve seen that with a lot of folks who work with right?

Kurt 13:05
Yeah, we had we had back in, like 2017, or 2018, we had some guys that would had a really good campaign, like 60% increase in conversion, something like that, by the end of the campaign, we’re wrapping it up, and they’re like, Hey, we think we’re gonna do a web redesign. And we’re just like, why we just absolutely crush this campaign. And it’s great the way it is. And but people want, you know, shiny objects, grass is greener. And they were just ready to bin all of that data, and obviously takes some learnings into this new design. But we just said look, for a small fee, because they’re already our clients will split test this new design versus your old design on your top five pages.

Kurt 13:48
So we’ll get this we’ll get the pages done up in age standard HTML. And we can actually split test the variations. And like the new site was super slick, or cool widgets, and like animated sliders and all this cool stuff. And it didn’t look really nice. But the original site, it was a review site, right? review sites convert much better when they’re authentic, and they look like they’ve been reviewed by a person. And like it actually looks like it’s a real review site. People are not a lot more savvy, and they were back in 2010. So we split tested it and it was like 20 30% Less conversions of the exact same of the original design. So that saved them. 20 grand in development phase I think they’re about to shove out to have it done and then they just left it off.

Josh 14:37
Now split testing isn’t something I’ve done too much myself. I’m pretty interested in fascinated by it. How did you guys practically do that? Did you show customers different versions of the site where they redirected to the different sites on campaigns? How did that work for you guys? Because I know there’s a lot of different methods for split testing.

Kurt 14:54
So we currently have probably three 100 400 split tests running right now. So we have a lot of systems in place to run a lot of split tests. Now there’s two major types of split tests that we run. The first one is a, just a standard, A B split test inside the same page. So what we do is, we add our split testing software to the head of the website right above everything. So just below the opening head tag, and then allows us to control everything on the site allows us to dynamically using JavaScript, switch out any elements and be able to the whole journey of, of the user, whether it’s an e commerce website, we can track, if they buy go to cart go to checkout the drop off process throughout that whole, that whole funnel. And that allows us to switch out the elements.

Kurt 15:47
Now there’s another variation, which is if we’re split testing two different styles, let’s say like that one I just spoke about earlier, where we’re split testing two completely different, like websites, yeah, like two different themes like that client, then we would do a split URL test. So it’s before the page loads, it’s it redirects to another page, and tracks the journey through that way. So the user doesn’t know at all, they’re seeing a different variation. They just, that’s just part of the journey that like they think that’s the website. And that’s very important that they don’t think they’re getting a different version. Because that, yeah, that would change their by by buying motives.

Josh 16:27
Good point. Good point, for sure. Yeah, that’s fascinating. I’m really interested in getting more and more interested in split testing, especially now that I’m diving further into email marketing and different landing pages and a little further into Google or Facebook ads now and stuff. And I think a lot of my students are doing the same. We’re all exploring different marketing strategies for either us or clients as well.

Josh 16:47
Now, let’s talk about conversion itself. And I’m curious, Kurt, when, when you hear the term conversion, because I feel like it’s a sparely broad term. My mind conversion could definitely mean if a client or a lead turns into a client via a site, whether they purchase something from a Buy Now button on a product line, or if they sign up for a consultation. But when what would the term conversion? How far does that overreach a website? Would you consider even people moving forward on certain pages and newsletters conversions on websites out? It is kind of kind of a maybe a tough question to answer. But when you hear conversions in the realm of websites, what does that mean to you?

Kurt 17:29
A conversion is just a goal. So you can have multiple conversions across your website, a conversion could be a click on a call to action, a conversion can be a lead, submit, and it can also be a sale on the end, right? So when we’re defining what that conversion will be, and that metric that we’re trying to optimize for, with the client at the start, that’s very much established at the beginning. And then we set up all the tracking to aim to increase that goal. That’s that’s probably the most simple way to explain it.

Josh 18:00
That was a great way to explain it. Yeah, really turned that was a very concise way to, to answer a bit of a bloated question there. But I love that because it is true, I found that when you work with most small and medium sized businesses, a lot of times they don’t know their goal, or they haven’t even thought about what their website should do. So I think it’s a really important point, when it comes to conversion, make sure you’re creating something for a goal in mind. Whether it is to buy a product or to call or to sign up for a free consultation, or to sign up for a news. I hate to even say newsletter nowadays, but it’s the simplest way to sign up for an email list, something like that, or with a lead generator or something.

Josh 18:39
So I think that’s very well said, how have you seen some of your best converting type clients? How do you get those goals out of the typical small to medium sized business owner? Because this can be tricky? Is it just a strategy call with them and then uncovering what they really want to do? What are some of the tips for finding that goal for the best conversion?

Kurt 19:01
It’s pretty simple. So we, we we only work with certain types of websites. So we only work with ecommerce, lead gen. Affiliate, and SAS. I mean, there’s a few cases where we work with add some other monetization methods. But generally those are 95% of our, of our clients. So with an e commerce website is generally more revenue, average order value, and then revenue per customer so that they can they can increase their ad spend or whatever depends on what their goals are. So that’s very easy with an e commerce website. And we normally tell them what can move nation increase because at the end of the day, their goal is to increase their revenue. Right? So we tell them what will increase their revenue the most by looking at their site, if they don’t know but most of the people who come to us are quite savvy already to be aware of CRO and actually seek it out and actually get on a call with someone right so

Josh 19:59
I was just gonna say your clientele is probably a little bit different than the clientele of most of the listeners here as web design freelancers and smaller agencies where they’re working business to business, but it kind of adds an interesting challenge for us because we need to uncover what is that goal. And I imagine you’re still seeing people that think they might want to shoot for this goal. But, um, do you guys uncover like, actually, maybe we should go this method instead of what you’ve been doing, or what you think you should do

Kurt 20:27
90% of websites, the thing that increases their conversion the most is credibility and trust. So most websites out there, let’s say it’s a brick layer website, or say like a construction business. They have a website, in their headline in the in the top hero section, it says we are a construction business in Baltimore, whatever. And then below that has a few area explaining what they do. Below that we’ll have like maybe an inquiry form below that will have some reviews right down the bottom. But there’s no credibility and trust there like that person probably won’t scroll past the second section.

Kurt 21:09
But the idea is to use that hero section. And this will be great for web design, web designers, that hero section should have everything in it should have benefits, features, and what your offer is in the in the hero section, followed by some trust, so whether a review or a Trustpilot icon, showing what you’re reviewed on Trustpilot, or Google reviews, or whatever. And then even if, if, if it’s conducive to do so, a quick like a review a small review below that, and then a contact us form or you’re a number one product you want to sell.

Kurt 21:50
It’s a lot of information, but it does a lot of things where it builds credibility and trust straightaway, as well as educating the user exactly what you do the amount of websites we see, you get to the homepage, and you have no idea what they do. You have no credibility and trust, because the reviews are always down the bottom. I don’t know why designers do this, but they’re all the way down the bottom when no one goes, which we track the scroll maps and like 80 90% of people don’t go past halfway. And they have a contact us page, which is the only way to get in contact with them by going to a generic form that has name subject message.

Kurt 22:27
So these things are where most websites fall over. So just by making it easy for people to contact, ideally, if it’s a lead gen site having a multi step form in the header so they don’t have to go anywhere and have any other load pages or make any steps they have maybe two questions and a multistep sliding form type of thing. And then they can get more information and that credibly interest is a great way to win them over that you’re a great service.

Josh 22:57
I love that I love that challenge accepted for sure because I’ve got a laundry list of things I’m planning on doing on my site and one is to move the reviews up on the homepage. Now I have some credibility and trust with recent stats and numbers and things like that but and that actually I did see a big boost in conversion since I added that but I definitely liked the idea of being intentional about those reviews now what about sprinkling interviews in different parts of a homepage if you are going to showcase your services or your are going to showcase a Locate like a service map if it’s a brick and mortar shop, what are your thoughts I’m just curious about this in particular about reviews and like multiple places on the websites you know, basically in between all the other content

Kurt 23:39
For sure exactly. So the thing is most most pages or landing pages right they’ll have like a broad overview what the service is, the next step will be like more detail about each service maybe the next section will be where they located what areas they service things like that. And then about every stage someone might convert or be ready to convert once they’ve found out where you service or found out what your services are maybe they’re looking for a certain service and they scrolling down to find if you actually do it are cool and then below that’s a review about how good that service that exact service was they’re looking for of course it’s going to convert more so if you look at our homepage we have like I said the offer we have the Legion lead capture and we have like the review stars and we have exactly what we do in a bit more detail more reviews a bit more about what we do more reviews and and then like five case studies backing up those reviews. So

Josh 24:40
that’s great. Let’s let’s hit on case studies because I feel like this is a bit of a the New Wave instead of a typical testimonial or typical review. How I guess first question is in regards to case study would be how much more powerful as a case study opposed to just a typical this? This you know This laundry cleaner was awesome. They did a great job. How much more powerful is it? Well, I guess maybe a laundry cleaner isn’t the best example for a case study. But like in your guys’s case, where it’s a more of intensive type of service, how much more powerful is a case study opposed to just a review,

Kurt 25:14
It grew us very quickly in the first year. So what I did was I went and did conversion optimization on four or five industry, authorities websites. And then the deal was that we do a case study on their website. If the campaign successful, okay, that’d be what happened. So we did one or two affiliate, we did a lead jam, we did an E commerce. And because it’s on their website, about their site from our company, it’s even more trustworthy, because you can post any old stuff on your website. But if it’s on the website of the company that you just did the case study for, it’s going to be 10 times more trustworthy. So So yeah, that’s what we that’s what we did. And that was huge.

Kurt 25:59
Case studies, or the industry specific relevant, obviously, the laundry, laundry manners, you can’t really do a case study. But if it’s a service, and you’re explaining the service, step by step, and the customer journey, the problems they had the problems you solve, how you then solve those problems in detail. And then the result she got, there’s no better way to, to win over the customers. And that was where in the first six months, we spent most of the time was getting those case studies, because you can’t really go wrong.

Kurt 26:28
If you have all that information, because there’s so much people selling everything, your inbox, I’m sure has been absolutely overflowing with 50% off there. 60% of that is none total now after four days of it five days. So you need to somehow differentiate yourself from from the pack. And that’s what I noticed when I was looking around. CRO wasn’t as mature as it is now. Five years ago, there wasn’t many guys doing it. Therefore the guys that were doing it weren’t really doing it that well, in terms of selling the service, I’m not talking about in terms of doing the service, but selling the service. So I really spend a lot of time on my from my experience in affiliate and lead gen to do that with our own site.

Josh 27:14
So for folks who are new to web design, CRO conversion rate optimization, when did that term catch on? Or was that more recently because I feel like I really haven’t heard that up until a little more recently that the official CRO conversion rate optimization.

Kurt 27:29
I don’t know. We as internet nerds always talking acronym, so I have no idea I probably started referring to it because like conversion rate optimisation is quite a hard thing to say, multiple times and accreditation. So probably around 2014 15. Because it wasn’t really a thing that you would be able to set up a sole business for before that. It was like something new did for your existing business, you know, so.

Josh 28:00
Right, right. Yeah, that makes sense. I was just kind of curious. I didn’t know in your world, you preferred it. Yeah. Now, back to this case study things. I think this is just one of the hidden gems, particularly for web designers to be because we are a service type of industry. And we can look at the results. The question would be for an average web designer who launches a web site for somebody, they’re likely going to get a testimonial. That’s more of the surfacey like they did such a great job. You know, Sally and her team are amazing love working with them. But again, it’s only so powerful because there’s no proof. There’s no results yet.

Josh 28:34
So how it for an average web designer? Do we base those case studies on results? Like what type of results would an average web designer find? Would it be obviously sales on an E commerce site? Would revenue that be an easy type of result signups to a male a male, you know, form or a mailing list kind of thing? I guess like traffic might be if it’s more marketing related. What are some of the other results that most web designers could could add in a case study?

Kurt 29:02
So if if web designers want to make seven figures or more a year so I’m not going to discuss six figures cuz I’m sure that’s where a lot of guys want to get to is like that nice six figure they can leave their job and focus on a full time or they already are at six figures. But I haven’t really noticed too many soul web designers, web design agencies, sure. But web designers you sort of max out at maybe quarter of a million Max is what I’ve seen personally. The ones that do really well that crack seven mid seven figures are the ones that specialize in an industry so they’ll be the web design expert for dentists.

Kurt 29:48
They’ll go speak at when we go speak at dentist. expos show how many more clients this dentist was able to book this month because of using this When design system and their process of booking and it comes all inclusive, those are the guys that do the best. Those are the guys that, you know, crack seven, seven figures are the guys that specialize in being web designers for landscapers or web designers for and then you can do case studies around how you tripled this landscapers business, by not just making them a website, but setting up a lead gen or like customer sales engine off the back of that. So like the booking system you use, they’re plugged into Calendly, they’re all automatically books calls where I can go around and quote all these types of things, packaging that up in a, as a system, rather than just web design alone. Those are the guys that do the best.

Josh 30:46
Yeah, that makes sense. I would agree with that, it seems and we’ve talked a lot on the podcast before about going niche or going niches you guys say in the UK, where as whereas a solopreneur, a freelancer can get to the six figure probably 200 quarter million range. And I do agree at that point, it’s like you either go a small agency route or do like I did, which was basically just a small team be able to handle it that range. But I agree. And I’ve seen the same thing. A lot of my colleagues who are either in the seven figure range, or who are headed that way, have gone more niche because they get to focus on what they know best. And they get to refine that process with every project. And I imagine that to answer the question or to get the initial question I imagine that helps with results, right? If you kind of know in industry, if you know the type of clients, you know, what type of results they’re looking for imagine those are all things that help with those goals,

Kurt 31:38
How to hit their pain points is the main thing. So how then, like it’s one thing to say, very broadly will increase your sales by 50% with our web design team. But if you can communicate, we’ll increase booked clients for your dentist practice in 60 days using our system, whatever that’s going to be much easier to start learning and start running ads specifically to dentists web design. Baltimore now why keep using Bolton? What’s the first thing that comes to my head?

Josh 32:14
Yeah, you can always be the go to as well. I don’t know why. I don’t know why. I don’t know any dentist web designers that I don’t know if you do have to.

Kurt 32:22
That was That was why that okay guys at a conference I went to a few years ago that motivated me to scale my business. And the way I did was he did SEO for for dentists and then also web design on top of that. So he showed his process of how he grew to seven figures and everything. So I modeled mine sort of off that or like it stayed in my head. Okay, when I move forward, so Well,

Josh 32:47
Wow, man, I might have to I might have to talk with him. I would love to pick his brain about that if you’d be down for an intro.

Kurt 32:53
I think that scale a bit too much. And it went bust. Yeah. I tried to push hard and then over leveraged and

Josh 33:03
Well, I would just recently I had Troy Dean on the podcast, who’s a WordPress. Awesome. Yeah, Troys awesome guy. And we talked about scaling. And that was one of the things he said is, is there a time to scale back? Or is it not right for you to scale at that level, but either way, the process of finding a niche and then really capitalizing on that knowing it well, knowing those pain points, being able to showcase proven results. That’s huge.

Josh 33:25
Now, for people who love this idea of showcasing results. here’s the here’s the caveat to that I’ve found for a lot of people, it’s like, how do I guarantee that result? Or for people who maybe did a really good job for one company, even if it’s in this the same industry or genre? How do you feel about I mean, you guys do this obviously with a you know, in your website says well and increase your conversions by 20 to 100%. On your website, is that the best way to go about some sort of guarantee is giving it like a range? And devil’s advocate question if I if somebody works with you here occur and their conversions are only go up by 10%. How does that work? I guess the question is, how do you offer a guarantee when there’s probably a lot of variables in there for a service.

Kurt 34:09
We’ve changed that model a few times over the years. So initially, we were offering a guarantee. And that nearly got us in a bit of trouble. Because legally, we weren’t actually allowed to offer guarantees and had our Facebook banned because you cannot make guarantees on Facebook and a bunch of stuff. So we had to change the wording a little bit in the way we sell it where we don’t offer a guarantee. But if we don’t get to the 20% minimum increase by the end of the campaign, then we keep texting at no extra charge because sometimes we get to that 12 15% In rare cases and then we test for 123 I think there’s been one or two times where we’ve tested for six months, six months extra but that’s how we that’s how we that worked for us and it made it made refunds really disappointing. completely. So

Josh 35:01
That’s awesome. Yeah, because it’s kind of a, I would view what you guys have now is kind of a soft guarantee where you’re saying we will increase your conversion. So it’s not like 100% conversion rate guaranteed kind of thing that that definitely makes sense more of a creative way to sneak that guarantee in there without saying that good to know that Facebook frowns upon that as well. I guess I hadn’t really heard or known about that. Like, you can’t,

Kurt 35:23
You can’t guarantee like weight loss, you can’t guarantee just the word guarantee, two or three years ago just kept getting accounts banned, and I couldn’t work it out and I spoke to someone they’re like, are you can you guys can can use that verbiage.

Josh 35:38
That’s great, great, great stuff, man. A little bit ago, we hit on the idea of trust from an initial just broad based type of website conversion tool, trust, authenticity reviews, things like that. Before we went live, you were saying that it was interesting how many people you’ve talked to who are running like seven figure businesses that have a terrible representation of them either on video or on calls. With a bad setup, whether it’s in the office, whatever it is, how important is coming across professional and just the look of of, you know, being on video and stuff. How important is that now to build that trust and authority and likability?

Kurt 36:20
I think a lot of the world has had to adjust very quickly to zoom meetings in the last 1824 months. And it hasn’t, like especially people who have worked worked in corporate offices a lot you notice they really struggle with it. They’re like doing zoom calls on their iPad, and they’re like up their nose or something. All the demographics, but I see it like like, I have a digital SLR setup, so to you and good sound and everything like that. And it’s like, I see it is like how do you dress in public? Like, do you dress shabby? Or do you dress like a bit rough that look like you’re hungover all the time, or you’re going to be judged very quickly for that. And I view the same it’s not as much online because you know, up until the recent version of the MacBook the camera was like 720 feet. I think it still might be on the air. But

Josh 37:15
I think so yeah, I have a MacBook Pro 720

Kurt 37:19
So like I’ve got a full setup here with like digital SLR tripod cables running everywhere behind the screen, you can’t see that but and it probably cost like two grand but it’s for sales calls especially if you’re doing sales calls, you’ve got a web design company invest in like a two $300 dollar digital SLR or get a second hand good Sony or Canon or something like that. And then you can get a what’s it called? It’s called cam link and then you can just plug it straight in and your your computer picks it up as a webcam. And like the like it’s dark right now it’s it’s it’s 4:30pm The sun’s completely gone down I’ve just got my my room light on and the quality is still really good you know because of this exposure on the on the camera and you need to be able to communicate you’re if you’re trying to sell a service people are going to judge judge that very quickly. Like like every podcast person that I’ve been on was bad there was a few that that’s not the case where they’re still using their standard laptop laptop camera, but most guys especially if they’re syndicating to YouTube have

Josh 38:24
Yeah, I was gonna say if you’re just doing if you’re just doing audio yeah video as long as you can see the person you’re talking to but shocker I’m actually using a webcam right now. I’m using the it is a TDP it’s just a log Logitech tinny Like honestly, lighting is a huge aspect to to any sort of video but I do agree I do have a DSLR in fact, how funny like how timely I just a couple days ago got my new camera and because I got a new Canon EOS R but I did not realize that just like anything with computers or Mac every time you get something new you have to get all the other things new like a new lens that fits it a new cable that goes from you know like so I’m actually waiting on some other gear to come in at the time of recording this at least so far like timely on that.

Josh 39:11
But the idea that you are well represented with how you look I think is more important than ever. And the good news is you can do the low budget route nowadays there are plenty of webcams now that shoot tonight EP which is fine for most web designers. I mean, yeah, if you’re, if you’re going to be doing promo videos and more sales videos, absolutely. I agree with you, Kurt, it’s in what’s worth investing and your look because how you come across whether you like it or not really does matter. And there’s a big difference between somebody you know, feeling comfortable with who they’re working with, when there’s the bat their background is, you know, their living room with socks on the couch, you know gets into they’re wearing sweat pants or whatever versus something that looks even halfway professional. I think that is becoming more and more important even in this work from home zoom type of world we’re living in it’s and it’s a great differentiator is it it like if you just look somewhat professional people are like, Oh, wow, this guy or this gal seems pretty legit, it really goes a long way.

Kurt 40:07
100%, especially when you’re working with the bigger companies, so when you are working with seven and eight figure businesses, and it just goes a long way, without them knowing that it’s making a difference, I just noticed a big difference when I changed this setup versus the standard camera setup. Because like, this makes my room look much better than it actually is. It’s much more like a normally actually have it set up much more especially for sales calls, like I’ve got like, I can see a vacuum there, like a TV there at the moment, because it’s a bit more of a casual talk. But normally it’s I’ve got a light back there and Neons. And this looks way, way nicer. But yeah, it just goes a long way. Especially if someone’s doing your core, which happens sometimes it’s insane. Like you’d want a bigger, high end call or even service providers. And they’re sitting there on their laptop or on their phone.

Josh 41:00
So recently, we’ve been talking a lot about the importance of being authentic in your branding, and actually for web designers, especially being on their website, because to me, there’s nothing worse than when you go to a web designers website. And you have no idea who is behind this this company or this brand. You don’t know if it’s one dude in his mom’s basement? Or is it an agency of 35 people downtown somewhere? Like, what are some of your tips for helping conversions with just putting yourself on your website? And what areas might web designers consider whether making, whether it’s making a short video or having some sort of Bounders note or a team page or about page? What are some of those areas that you’ve seen help conversions to just you know, be on your website?

Kurt 41:44
Depends on the on the niche, right how much credibility you need something like a Law website, or if it’s a family website, but let’s just say it’s a family business, like a brick and mortar business. I think a lot of web designers think it’s high end, high quality stock photography works better. But it really doesn’t. Like our phones are like so tech right now, like I’ve got the second latest iPhone, the max one that has like three cameras on the back, I barely barely use it. But the quality of the photos you can take on that. That’s what you want is like people don’t want these high end, professional shots for the guy with the beard, you know, the internet marketing guy with the beard, it’s everywhere drinking coffee, whatever, like, the site just looks fake, you know. But if you’ve actually got your team, photos of your team hanging out, like I think there’s a few on our homepage from from a couple of years ago. And they’re like real photos that that’s what people want to see. It’s not so much about like, coming across IT professional because anyone can do that with a $50 theme, you know, so

Josh 42:53
That’s a great point. And I look I’ll even like when it came to setting up this interview, I looked at your site first. And I saw a real photo. So I’m like this is this is a real, genuine type of team and somebody I’m going to talk to who’s not? I mean, I think in very rare cases, depending on the industry, some stock photos can can you know, especially if it’s like construction, you might be able to get away with some stuff. Sure. But when it comes to represent Yeah, yeah, when it comes to representing you, there, here’s here it is, there’s a big difference between representing your service versus representing what you actually do or who you are as a company.

Josh 43:28
And I think that’s where having some sort of real photos are crucial and lay like you said, a lot of the new phones have amazing cameras that blow like I have an old DSLR canon that that I got years ago when I did photography on the side for a little bit. And my phone now I just I have the iPhone 11 which anyone watching you see the keep three cameras there, that this blows away what my old camera could do so No, I totally agree. And it’s it’s worthwhile doing, isn’t it to add some personality and take the time to get yourself on your website for conversions. Would you agree with that?

Kurt 44:01
It’s it’s all about communicating your story, right? Obviously, it depends on like, again, I’ll use a dental example. Most people have one dentist and they stick with them for their whole life. So they want to make sure that that they’re with someone that’s trustworthy, credible, and it’s not even. Like it’s not even about the experience when they go in. Initially, it’s about the experience online. So you need to communicate that on your website before they actually come in. Obviously, that’s a whole nother ballpark. Optimizing the experience when they come in,

Kurt 44:37
But you need them to come in first and before that you need them to even ring you to make a booking or or send an email so being able to be authentic as possible. is the key and it wasn’t the case 510 years ago but at 100% is now you know people are very, very savvy. There’s you know my my little brother’s 13 I think now and he’s been brought up with with the internet from the start You know, a lot of people, millennials and so on, we’re in this transition stage where it was like it took a while for the to get business savvy, I mean to get internet savvy, but 2010 onwards, it’s been, it’s been especially 2015 onwards, like, everyone knows what’s up, you really need to communicate your message properly.

Josh 45:17
That’s well said I agree as far as where that timeline is because I got into web design and then subsequently freelance and business around 2009 2010. And it was very different back then, as far as people being on camera and being more real and authentic. On their site, it was much more of the like, agency was where everyone wanted to go. And coincidentally, like, I never felt comfortable going the agency route. I always liked being more real and being myself and I enjoyed being a solopreneur for a long time until even when I scaled very on a low level with a small team.

Josh 45:50
And I do think interestingly enough, that worked to my benefit because I was separated from the agency pack, especially here I’m based in Columbus, Ohio, where there’s a lot of agencies law, digital marketing agencies, web design agencies, what was interesting is I had so many clients who were burned by agencies, just the fact that I didn’t promote myself as an agency actually was a incredible converter for me, because people were like, great. I don’t want to work with a big agency. I don’t want to feel like a number on a spreadsheet.

Kurt 46:17
Agencies suck. Yeah,

Josh 46:18
Yeah. When it’s it’s just it’s it’s tough. When you’re at a big agency level, the the churn rate the turnaround you have internally, I think when it comes to conversions, and being able to track as it as an agency as a generalist, when you’re working with a lot of different industries that can be even more challenging on at scale. So yeah, I think there’s an I’m curious about your thoughts about this with this landscape of entrepreneurialship. And technology, and we’re in, I feel like there’s a bigger and greater opportunity for solopreneurs, freelancers, and folks who just want to have maybe a small team that’s remote. I mean, you guys are fairly small with ConvertKit. Right.

Kurt 46:55
Now I find smaller with 22.

Josh 46:57
Okay, so Okay, so I wasn’t sure if you’re like 15 or 16. Mark, but compared agencies who are, you know, 50 60 70 plus with designers and, and I subcontracted for an agency like that, that had hundreds and it was like, Man, the turnaround that the turn that they had there was brutal. Anyway, yeah, for well, for staff and for clients who just got mediocre results across the board. But they seemed like they did really good like the first few months. So the first few six months or so. But then after that, I just, they never had like lifetime clients. It seems like where a lot of freelancers do, I had clients that were with me for years, and a lot of my students have clients from 2008 2009. So I say all that to say, I feel like, right now is a really exciting time for solopreneurs freelancers, and folks who want to stay a little more small and reasonable without feeling like they have to scale that agency.

Kurt 47:49
So there was a point, there was definitely a point, probably just a little while, before I had my first I’ve only got one child. So before I, we had our first job, where I came to the acceptance of what I wanted it to look like, because there’s such thing as a guy, especially you’re in a circle of other guys, and especially if they’re A types, like you always want to circle jerk and like, be the biggest and the best, and you want to talk numbers and whatever. And I think for me, it was like, Okay, well, what lifestyle do we want to live? What investments do we want long term? How much does all that? How much does all that look like, you know, and it’s a lot less, it’s always a lot less than you think.

Kurt 48:29
And I read a book called about four or five years ago called Profit First, it was about paying yourself first and then making all the expenses fit into a defined the rest of what you what you want, right. And that really helped me to, to work that out and stay at OSI, it’s like purposely set asides, that was 20, 22 staff, I have direct access to all my stuff, I don’t talk to them all, every week, I have middle management of three people that I talk to, and then they communicate with the staff, but I still have a direct line with them more or less all know, the more or these type of things. Whereas when you get above 30, you might have to get another HR and all these type of things and and then it was also the revenue levels above a certain side, you actually become a lot less profitable, because then you have another level of management and then you have to have all this other stuff. So we found that we found that side just because we work backwards, we define what we wanted first, and then worked backwards to make the business fit into into that into that narrative. So

Josh 49:33
Yeah, that just that whole idea, that whole premise that you just mapped out of doing what works for you and just kind of getting away from the comparison game, which it’s funny you have the analogy of like, you know, a bunch of alpha male type of dudes who it kind of reminds me of like middle school weight room where all the guys would just try to you know, do the heaviest benchpress and then when one dude got off the next day would add, you know, 10s on each side to do that it just never stops. It’s very much like that in the business world and I’m sure it’s the same and female entrepreneurialship circles and in any type of entrepreneurship circles in web design, the comparison trap and imposter syndrome is huge because you look at all these other people who are so further ahead of the journey in the EU with their design and their SEO knowledge or weight, conversion knowledge, whatever it is, and it can be really easy to to lose sight of your progress. And I don’t want to take us on a tangent of imposter syndrome. But I’ve just found that idea of staying in your lane and just looking forward is key. So I’m glad you brought that up. Because I think it’s a big one.

Kurt 50:27
And just one more point on that, too. It’s not about comparing yourself to what these other people have. It’s about comparing yourself to the perception of what these other people have. The fact is when I’ve got actually dug deep, and I’ve been in a lot of masterminds over the years, most of them are not what they sell, like, not what they perceive what how you perceive them online. Most of them are like really struggling, they’re making good revenue, or they were at some point, and they made it public, but then nothing ever lasts forever, you know, so it’s like, then you never hear from them. But you still anchor to that point, because that’s where you want to be. So then you’re comparing it to something that doesn’t exist. So that’s why I felt it was really clear to just disconnect from all that and then just work out what you want it and then I also read another book called A company of one which helped with that.

Josh 51:17
I was just gonna mention that. Yeah. Paul Jarvis. Yeah,

Kurt 51:20
It’s another great book on the topic. And it’s, it’s just like, corporate, when you when you go corporate and you go, like, large scale, it’s like, money just disappears. And it’s like, we don’t need to be like that we can be boutique, especially as a Web Design Studio, you can be boutique and like, make 100 or 200 a year and like live a great lifestyle and have a small team and, and it can be great. You know, it’s like it doesn’t need like to get to, to get from 100 or 200 profit to like a mill profits, a whole different kettle of fish. You know, it’s like the stress that comes with that as you’re not selling your soul. But you’re like, it’s gonna take some years and years of like, committed to that to that company.

Josh 52:02
Yeah, no, I agree. I think most everyone listening is probably in that same mindset or headspace of, of just, we live in a business that you want to live and that you can focus on and you can work on. And let’s, I’m going to give you a cheesy segue back into conversions. Because if you have more time to focus on your business, instead of worrying with payroll and everything else that’s included, you can work on things like conversions, and making more like you just said, profit over revenue. I’d love to end this conversation with a couple tactile things on conversions for websites in particular,

Josh 52:34
I think one thing that I’ve seen be tricky for and for most, whether it’s most web designers, or or most industries, is the amount of stuff to put on a website. Now I’m all about content marketing, but I know a lot of people struggle with well, how much should I put on my homepage to help with conversions versus like, how much information do I want to put on services page? I’d be curious to get your mindset about that. Like I, for wide, let’s stick with web designers who have a lot of different services are doing a lot of different things. But the question would be how much is too much when it comes to? Like how much we want to put on our website? Have you seen less is more convert better nowadays, or does having the extended amount of content help with conversions,

Kurt 53:21
Most of the time, because a lot of people copy a lot of other people and they they look at other websites in their industry, and use that as a benchmark to start designing their site. I think people get confused with a website that’s built for SEO and a website, a website that’s built for sales. So having owned an SEO company for 10 years, or a few SEO companies for 10 years. The top 20% of the page is sales content. The rest is to rank for the search engines. So you need to be able to communicate very clearly what your offer is, what’s featured in your offer or what you know, a quick way to summarize it up, then more details down below. So I mean, there’s no clear way to answer what there’s too long, but it shouldn’t be like if you need too much to explain if you need 1000s of words to explain that’s not for SEO, then your business is too complicated. Like

Josh 54:26
I was just gonna say that premise of like the top 20% of the page as sales and the rest of back that up that right there is a game changing type of mindset because then suddenly you feel like okay, I don’t need to load up this service page with everything about it. And then at the very end, say, call for a free consultation. Have what would you say in that case, have the kind of like what you said earlier, have the benefits, have the main features or the results and then contact us and then below that have more content that boosts it up whether it’s from an SEO perspective or there’s the occasional clients who want to dig in and find out a little more is that is that kind of the the idea behind this is to, to fill that top 20% with the highest converting things.

Kurt 55:11
So I just think like, there’s no clear number on how long it has to be. But you just use the top for explaining what your offer is the benefits and features a way for them to contact you. But don’t say contact us, or like send mail or something like that. Give them a reason to contact you whether that’s a two page PDF guide on, on how to make dentist websites convert, give them something of value, I see it so often where people have a pop up saying join our newsletter. What is that? What does that even mean? join our newsletter, why don’t what am I getting what’s involved with it.

Kurt 55:49
Instead giveaway like, if it’s a again, if it’s a dentist website giveaway, the top three things that convert on dentist websites to get more customers in the door and create a small PDF, get them onto your list and then create an email sequence that builds a relationship with these customers over time. Then below that have testimonials, reviews, case studies, if you can, like if you can have a case study how you helped five different businesses, triple their bookings or sales or whatever. It’s, that’s where you, that’s where you need to, that’s where you need to focus on credibility and trust and being very clear with your offer. But don’t make it complicated and go into too much detail.

Kurt 56:30
A lot of web designers offer web design, PPC, SEO, CRO, like when I see these, I instantly leave. And I’m looking at clients like that because you can’t be you can barely be a good SEO committed to a full time I have hundreds of people I know doing it that are committed to a full time and don’t barely like barely like have success. So to do SEO, when you when you say you do SEO, you mean you’re changing the title tags and doing like basic on page. That’s what they mean, right. But instead, don’t sell your prospective customers on all the technical so your customers on that they’re going to make more money, they’re going to make more sales, that’s all they care about.

Kurt 57:12
But too many people get caught up with the tech speak like all these other things. But at the end of the day, most layman people that aren’t in tech and aren’t in Web, they just want to know that if they use your services, and they’re going to pay 10 grand that they’ll make 100. And if you can communicate that to them, you will be making sales hand over fist. That’s that’s all they care about on the call. But most of the time that’s even talked about.

Josh 57:37
Yeah, guys, that’s a great point, man. That’s very well said, because there is the curse of knowledge or somebody knows a lot about and I did this early on. I just spoke web design, speak to clients and then realize like, I probably shouldn’t even talk about WordPress or any tools or anything, we can talk about them and just listen, I found listening more than I talked to be huge, from a sales perspective, when it came to converting and then yeah, on the website, just talk about more of the results based oriented kind of things in that trust. And everything we’ve talked about so far really feeds into that. So that’s very well said I actually, I’ll go ahead good

Kurt 58:09
On sales calls, I probably do six a week, something like that environment, on sales calls for the first 1520 minutes of the sales call, I get the customer talk about their business and where they want to take it. And then I deliver the not the pitch, but like the sales side of it is custom tailored to what the problems they’ve just had to help us solve those problems. Rather than me just get on the call and say, hey, hey, okay, so what we do is just get straight into us pitching some default pitch to them, I tailor the pitch, depending on what their pain points are. And I asked them what their issues are, what they’re having, where they want to focus on what part of the business is going to have given them the most increase in sales, and then we customize our pitch to that. Yeah, that’s great.

Josh 58:57
Well, even if your website as it stands right now, it converted It’s very around the potential customer because as I look at it right now, you will we talked about earlier will increase your conversions by 10 to 100 plus percent on your website, and then boom, it’s the offer to get a free audit, and then suddenly they dish out where they’re at with their website. And you know, I haven’t gone through the whole thing yet, but you lay down some options for what they’re interested in where the revenue is. And then you know, some details about the website.

Josh 59:26
So I think that’s a that’s a great little case study in itself. If you just make it around the customer and the type of results you give, oh, gosh, that’s it for conversions, isn’t it? I really, web design clients are not going to buy a nice website, they want results. They just want to know how the heck you’re gonna help me grow my business or whatever the main goal is gonna be. So I think that’s well said. And just to back up your point about the hey, sign up for our newsletter. That’s kind of like what I said earlier with. I’m trying to avoid that lingo because it’s so dated. Basically, all you’re saying is, hey, get some more emails in your inbox. That’s not what people want to sign up for. You’re totally right. Want to know what am i What’s the value here?

Kurt 1:00:02
I think a lot of themes have that as the default out of the box. And then people plug their MailChimp or their whatever the ConvertKit or whatever, into it. And they think, Alright, the emails gonna start coming in, but they missed the whole point. That’s the default, the fray like placeholder they put in, but they leave it as standard and they tick the box like exit pop up. So it shows an exit pop up, but no one’s gonna enter the email to get a newsletter. No one wants a newsletter. People want sales, discounts, awesome. content updates, free tips, like that’s what people want. People don’t want a newsletter, you know, but it’s getting less and less, but it’s still it’s still everywhere.

Josh 1:00:47
And I think the big issue for a lot of web designers is that’s like one of the last things people often do. It’s like, oh, yeah, let me integrate a little email sign up when the email signups are probably one of the first things you do. And I actually one of the last questions I had for you here was how to intentionally build a site around these big converters. Like, instead of that MailChimp, email signup being the last thing you add on a homepage for design, what if that’s one of the first things we focus around to make that the be the big Lead gen Do you have any tips on how to prioritize and focus on these main converters when it comes to laying out design and navigation and things like that?

Kurt 1:01:29
Well, yeah, it’s a bit of a in terms of getting people on your list. And if you want to focus on getting more people on your list, you need to, for instance, we do a lot of content marketing on our blog. So like case studies, and like, best CRO, tips for lead gen sites, and all these things based off stuff we’ve done. And then when they get to like, a third or a halfway down the page, pop up or trigger, and it’ll be like, get, you know, three lead gen case studies, from our actual clients into your inbox every month, something like that. And they’ve already read half, which means anyone who reads a half reads the whole thing, because we looked at the data.

Kurt 1:02:09
So then we know they’re engaged, the top 10, like the people who went around 10% and bounced when the people who are on the list so that allows us to capture the list who’s engaged, or like the people are engaged, and then they’ll they’ll sign up. And then we have custom pop ups for each of the different types of sites, and so on. So you can custom pop up to what content they’re on, or what blog posts they’re on to deliver. And then you can tailor the message, they all go on the same list essentially, but about how to get them on the list is tailored to what they’re reading, because that’s what they’re interested in.

Josh 1:02:42
Yeah. I have one final question before we wrap this up here, which is we’ve talked some about data and metrics and things like that. For the average web designer who maybe isn’t partnering with somebody like you guys, or somebody who has access to more advanced reports, where can we get some of the basic data that we would need to track results? Would it be as simple as just looking at contact form submissions? Would it be obviously sales are the easiest because you can look at the the sales on an E commerce site. But is it Google Analytics as a search console? Where some of these? Or are there some other tools that maybe help or can help us with some like data centric kind of results for clients?

Kurt 1:03:21
Yeah, so most people don’t set up goals and analytics, super easy set up, not only goals, but like not goals to like certain pages. So once a sales meeting, you have the confirmation page, you can trigger that as a goal or once you have a lead submitted, and then it goes to a success page or like when someone signs up for your newsletter, you know, that go to a confirmation page and then track visits that confirmation page is the goal. And then you can easily assess your marketing efforts that way. So then you can see okay, if I did paid ads to this, then I got six leads or whatever. It’s very, very easy to do.

Kurt 1:04:01
But we recommend people install some sort of tracking software, you get a lot of insights from software like hot jar, for instance, that has session recordings and heat maps. That is you install this bit of software on your website, it heat maps, visually represents clicks and movement on a on a page, you can see where your where your users are interacting. And then they’ve also got session recording and see from record people’s time on the website. I think Hydra has that too. And then you can record it and a lot of times you build this website or you have made it or or whatever, and you’re completely blind to the mistakes that are going on because you’ve spent so much time on the website.

Kurt 1:04:43
And the session recordings are really invaluable into how they can’t actually like one thing we see all the time, which is one of my pet peeves is when a web designer makes a website that when they add to cart a little number just take on the cart, nothing happens. So you click the Add to Cart button, and the cart up in the top right hand side of the page, we’ll just have a one in the car. But then the users clicking it going, why is nothing happening because they don’t see that one’s changing. And when they click add to cart, they’re not giving any options, what to do next to check out or to keep browsing. So that that, having that if you had that a session recording, you’d see them clicking and being lost and like, what do I do and then you’d be like, Ah, it’s because they don’t actually see the icon changing. Maybe we should send them to the checkout straight off the purchase if you’ve got a high ticket product, but most people only buy one item, when they click Add to Cart go straight to the checkout, you’re gonna have your versions are gonna expired. So it’s things like adding that that session recording really helped.

Josh 1:05:47
As a great little tips, man, I love the tactile stuff. No, that’s, that’s perfect. I really think that’s a great way to kind of put a cap on this comment we really covered quite a bit and conversion man, I’ve enjoyed this, this chat and enjoyed a lot of the things we’ve covered uncovered here. As far as some of the basic principles that you’ve seen work with, you know, the importance of that here section that first 20% also Ingre, integrating content SEO type of friendly stuff. And that that’s that was all great, man. I’m curious. One final question before we head off your crypto where would you like people to go to get to know you guys better and check you out?

Kurt 1:06:23
It just that website Everything’s there, we’ve got on the homepage, we’ve got a bunch of case studies and testimonials about about our service. But then in the blog, we just give more time Meishan 100% Free and those who want to find out more from us can can find out more from us and those who want to just read we don’t you know, we don’t put it behind a paywall or anything. It’s just about giving that education away to those those who need it. And we see our stuff everywhere, like our multi step form. In the header, like I see it everywhere, the people who have literally copied the code. Exactly. Right. That’s all good. You know, so yeah, so yeah, it’s like, I really don’t care. So, so yeah, all that informations there. And, okay,

Josh 1:07:08
Cool. Cool. I know, we have a coupon code. I’ll mention early on here. For anyone interested in working with you guys. Our Wi Fi is getting a little glitchy right now. So if you’re still with me here, Kurt, last question I have for you what is your favorite conversion tactic? Like is there one that just fires you up that you just really enjoy implementing along projects,

Kurt 1:07:26
A lot of a lot of this one really works well on a sales call because it’s like, Ah, of course. So and I know I’ll do a web designers from now on that are working on E commerce websites will integrate this. So when on a mobile device on an e commerce website, when you’re on a product page, make the Buy Now button floating at the bottom of the phone, just above the thumb at all times. That’s it, that one, that one conversion thing and when we split tested on mobile always has an increase because the Buy Now button is right there above the thumb. When they’re when they’re right down the bottom of the page or at the top of the page, whatever. They can just click Buy now and it’s it’s right there. So that works all the time. And why that hasn’t become like an industry default.

Josh 1:08:16
That’s awesome. What a cool little trick man Kurt. Thank you for your time dude, I’d love this channel to do another one on like E commerce conversion specifically because you just opened up a whole can of worms in my mind with questions I want to hit you with. So this was great, man. Thanks for taking some time to chat with us today dude.

Kurt 1:08:32
Cheers. Cheers, man.


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