Have you ever had so many things going on that you came to a point and realized… I need to pivot or quit?!?

We’ve all been there and my close friend and colleague Chris Misterek is there right now too.

He recently asked if I’d be willing to give him some advice to help him navigate this season of life and graciously allowed us to record the conversion for you!

In this casual coaching Q&A, I invite you to grab a cup of coffee or preferred drink of choice and listen in as Chris and I dive into his current challenges of building his podcast and course brand at selfmadewebdesigner.com, running his freelance business all while working full time.

Oh and managing a family of 4 littles.

It was a blast to share some insight and my perspective with Chris and as you’ll hear, together, we came up with a solid plan for him moving forward 🙂

Will he pivot or quit? Listen to find out!

P.S. I invite you to take many of these coaching principles and apply to your business if you find yourself in a similar situation!

In this episode:

00:00 – Introduction
04:45 – Coaching call kickoff
07:00 – Divided attention
09:16 – Practical & emotional work
12:13 – Weighing the options
14:41 – Courses
18:00 – Designing templates
19:55 – Being coopetition
23:45 – Evergreen courses
25:25 – A more advanced base
26:08 – Podcast benefit
27:43 – Cost direction
29:43 – Upwork
32:50 – Calculator time
35:44 – Being an affiliate
39:49 – Action plan

This Episode Presented by Josh’s Web Design Business Coaching

Connect with Chris:

Featured links mentioned:

Episode #178 Full Transcription

Josh 0:00
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Josh 0:48
Hello, Friends welcome into Episode 178. This is a very different type of episode, normally. So this episode is coming out on a Thursday, which as of right now, currently, every other Thursday, I put out generally a solo episode. But in this episode, I wanted to do something different because I recently had a coaching session with one of my very close colleagues, Chris Misterek, who is the guy behind the Self Made Web Designer podcast. It’s one of my favorite web design podcasts.

Josh 1:31
And Chris had reached out and all transparency and just asked about picking my brain about kind of where he’s at with his business. And he’s really in an interesting point where he’s managing the self made web designer brand with his podcast and his courses. But he’s also doing freelance work and working a full time job. And he’s just, he just needs some direction and wanted to get my thoughts on some strategy and where to go with all this. And if there’s something he needs to quit, or we need to pivot. And so we recorded this call, and I got his blessing to just record the call. Because Chris is awesome, and is super transparent. And it was really good.

Josh 2:08
I felt like it was a really interesting conversation, I think I just want to let you in on this. So you can kind of just be a fly on the wall and hear Chris and I go back and forth on some ideas on where he’s at what I’ve learned in my journey. And the reason I wanted to share this with you is I think it’s gonna help you specifically if you are managing quite a few different things, like if you have a side hustle and a full time job, or if you’re managing two businesses, or if you have like a passion project that you’re also doing along with other stuff, it can be really tricky because you only have 100%. And then you’ll find yourself kind of given half assed work on everything. And then after a year, it’s not really going anywhere.

Josh 2:45
So this coaching call was a really interesting chance to get to talk with Chris, who is my complete competition. But if you know me, you know, I’m all about coopetition. So I was happy to do this for Chris, and I want him to succeed even in his web design courses. What’s interesting, though, as you’ll hear, even though Chris and I are competition with each other, we partner up with a lot of stuff. And there’s no reason that this that what Chris and I are going to do. And as you’ll hear through this episode, what we’ve kind of figured out together, there’s no reason that you can’t do that with your local competition as well, particularly, if there are like digital media, media agencies that do different services than you do. And you can partner up with them for referral.

Josh 3:25
So all sorts of good things we talked about in this episode, and in this coaching chat about pivoting or quitting. So I’m really excited to to see how that helps you.

Josh 3:34
Now before we dive in, I will say two things real quick. If you’re interested in Chris’s courses, his upcoming courses that we talked about here, let him know go to his website at self made web designer.com. Go to the contact form, shoot him a note, he told me he would be happy to answer any questions or get a feel for maybe what you’re interested in if you like his stuff, and you’d like him to teach some things. Um, you’ll hear about what his course offerings are going to be. And he would love to hear from you. So go to self made web designer.com Cinema contact form, let him know what you might be interested in and let him know your thoughts after hearing this conversation and if it helped you as well.

Josh 4:13
And this should go without saying but if you like this and if you would like me to personally coach you. I do that in my coaching community, where we do group coaching and what you and I will have a private messaging thread. And just like I helped Chris here, I can help you strategize and help you in your business as well. So you can find out more about that at Josh hall.co/coaching. But right now, here’s my man Chris, let’s talk about pivoting or quitting and I hope you enjoy this. This kind of open ended coaching session

Chris 4:45
I always try to be as transparent as I possibly can even when it comes to stuff like that, you know, to be like I I’m thinking about quitting and I think we’ve all had those thoughts. You know, and so let’s talk about it because nobody talks about it. You know,

Josh 4:59
Yeah. That’s very true. Yeah. So where are you at right now? Like, so? So yeah, give me the lay of the land. So you’re still, you’re you’re doing self made, but you’re still working?

Chris 5:08

Josh 5:09
Are you still working full time?

Chris 5:12
So, I’m, I’m working as a, a, well, it’s like a UX slash web designer slash web developer slash Community Manager for a company called Show it. And so and I love it, like, it’s a great, it’s a great company, they treat me really well, they pay me well, like, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s a fantastic place to work. So then I started selfmade, just to kind of help people, you know, like, that’s, that’s a huge part of my heart is like, you know, I was a worship pastor for, you know, 13 years, and then I moved into the tech field, and I was like, I really want to, like, have some outlet where I can help people and help build them up and teach them how to do web design stuff.

Chris 5:57
And so that’s when I started self made. And that that started going and, you know, obviously, it’s been, it’s been slow going, like, we I’ve seen some good, you know, some good success. But, you know, it’s, it’s just been tough to put stuff out there. Like, I put out a course that that did well. But it took it, you know, took a lot of work to get that course ready. And I know, it’s like, it’s like the first one. And so it was a learning curve. And so like, I’m sure, like, the next few courses are going to be a lot easier to do, but it was still like really hard. And then, so in the middle of that, while I was building the course, when I was building selfmade, I was also doing freelance work. And so you know, I mean, freelance work slowed down to a halt. But at the beginning of this year, once I launched the course, I said, Okay, I’m open for business. And all these people have been waiting on me to do their website, like, I’m like, Okay, let’s do it. And, and so now, it’s just like, a floodgate is open, and we’ve got tons of work.

Josh 6:57
And so you’re getting a lot of work in opportunities freelance-wise.

Chris 7:00
Yeah, exactly. And so my wife kind of jumped on board with me and has been helping, you know, but she’s, she’s not really a designer has a lot to learn about web design. And so she’s been doing more, you know, like project management, doing some content stuff, like organizational stuff, like going over the the things that I’m designing and just checking for flaws or things like that, and then setting them on saying, hey, this isn’t working, right. And then I go back, and, you know, like,

Josh 7:29
What a dream what a dream role for your wife, right? Like, Hey, honey, tell me what I’m doing wrong. She’s like, I’m on it.

Chris 7:36
Right? Yeah,

Josh 7:37
Pretty, pretty, pretty common. I mean, your situation is full time. But the thing is, that’s tricky is your almost like, you’re not set up for success, to be blunt, because you got a full time jobs that’s taking up like 80% of your bandwidth. And then you’ve got if you’re, if you’re getting inundated with client stuff, that’s your other 10 or 15%. So then you got like, 5%, for self Ativ, that or you’re going over 100%, and you’re burning out. So I guess my main question would be, and I do I do think this is really common with passion style projects. And of course, I experienced it as I was scaling my agency and then eventually sold it. My question would be what’s keeping you at the full time job? Like, do you think your freelance work could meet or exceed that income?

Chris 8:27
Yeah, I mean, I think that it can, I think there’s some fear there of like, I ratcheted down the freelance work when I got the full time job, and then ratcheted down even more when I was working on selfmade. And so there’s, there’s just a fear of like, man am I am I going to be able to get the amount of clients that I need to get to make the type of income that we need to have with me and my wife and our four kids and our mortgage and all that other stuff of like, you know, show it is, is a really comfortable place to work, and they’re very flexible with my role and to where, like, if I need to bump out for four hours, just to work on some other projects, like, they’re fine with that, as long as I’m getting my stuff done, you know? And so that’s kind of why I’ve been keeping it but

Josh 9:16

Chris 9:16
There’s, there’s, I think there’s kind of two parts of this. There’s, there’s the the practical work of like, okay, I’m practically able to be flexible, but then there’s the emotional work of like, emotionally if I have all these saucers spinning, it’s it’s tough to really, you know, like, like, go full force with productivity to where yeah, when I sit down to one or the other, it’s like, my brain is always off in five different directions thinking well, should I be doing this? Am I neglecting this? Maybe I am maybe well, don’t worry about that. We got to get this done right now. You know what I’m saying? It’s so yeah, like I feel like like what you’re saying is true of like, I I’m not, it’s like everything is moving forward. So at such small proportions that I’m discouraged, and so then that, that halts productivity even more, which slows things down even more.

Josh 10:12

Chris 10:12
To where I’m like something has to something has to go

Josh 10:15
Something’s got to change. Yeah. And I think that’s and I don’t, you know, I obviously, you know, I’m saying bluntly, you’re not set up for success is just the reality of the situation. Because 100%, you can’t succeed in your full time job with all these other two awesome things going on, you can’t succeed in your freelance because you’re pulled in these different directions, and self made can only go so far, because you only have like 5% to give to it. So yeah, that’s where that’s where these changes. And I think it’s cool that you recognize you’re at this place.

Josh 10:45
So I guess the, I think a couple things, if you wanted to keep everything going, there’s probably some options, because we have a flexible job, which is pretty cool. What I would say is on the freelance side, you would probably just raise your rates extremely like only take on one client at a time at a higher, much higher level. Yeah, that way, instead of taking on three clients at the same time at you know, 5000, or 2000, or whatever your price ranges, or add, then just take 1 $10,000 client and, you know, it might look a little different might be scary, but that would be that the easy way to still do some freelance, but on a higher level.

Josh 11:22
And then with selfmade. The trick with that is essentially just to figure out the most like the minimum amount of content you could produce to keep it going. What, so let’s talk less about self made. And again, this is only if we still want to work with all three, if one’s got to go, if one has to go. Personally, I would drop freelance, I would do the full time job and self made, because you could probably make a lot more you already have a lot of experience with freelance or with web design. So you could probably take what you’re learning with the job stuff. And then utilize that because you can always do freelance you can always bounce in and out. That’s like, that’s the easy one of the three. Yeah, that you could pick up and drop, because you’re like I’m taking on clients, or I’m not taking on clients right now.

Josh 12:13
So as I’m thinking about this, because I don’t want you to drop selfmade. Now, selfishly, you’re my complete competition, like it said, Yeah. Chris drop Self Made. I’m like the only web design podcast for freelancers. But I don’t want that for you. So I because that’s where your passion is, I feel like I can tell you’re more passionate about helping people, rather than doing web design work on the side, which is really cool. But again, that is something you can turn on and turn off.

Josh 12:41
So you could say, right now I’m only taking on projects that are, you know, my package like 10 grand, and this is I can only take on one slot right now I’m open and when somebody fills it cool, you’ve got them, you figured out your deadlines. And or you could turn it off completely, you could just say not currently open for clients. And, again, if it was your only source of income, I wouldn’t recommend doing that. But it’s not it’s like something you can you have a little bit of leeway because you can always jump back into the market and say, I’m open for the next three months I’m taking clients is my experience, etc.

Josh 13:13
So my recommendation would be one of those two things with the freelance, either just turn it off right now and crank up selfmade or open it up as like limited spots, higher demand should be or you know, partner up with somebody to take off some stuff. That would be my recommendation. And the reason I wouldn’t say necessarily drop the full time job is because you’ve got a lot more responsibility in a mortgage and littles and it’s flexible that which is really cool. Like if you were commuting, and you’re working eight hours a day and it’s 10 hours out of your day, then that’s a different circumstance. But right. So when selfmade you have tell me about like, the content you have is it just your podcast primarily or what else are you doing?

Chris 13:56
Right? Right so and right now it’s the podcast mainly, but I use the podcast is kind of a double for a blog post right? So typically what I’ll do if I’m not interviewing somebody, then I’ll you know, do keyword research, see what people are looking for. And then I’ll write an article based on you know, the SEO research I’ve done and then do a podcast from that blog post, you know, so essentially where I’m just I’m just saying what the what the blog post is saying, right, that’s beautiful. So so it’s a little bit of a double whammy and then I put it on YouTube but YouTube is like I don’t even I don’t even think about it. I’ve got like 500 subscribers and I’m I post maybe once every month or something you know it’s not a big deal.

Chris 13:56
Yeah, I think for you the bigger bang for your buck with that content strategy would just be blog and podcast. Yeah, YouTube now YouTube is obviously huge for me it’s It’s massive. But my greatest YouTube strength on my channel are the tutorials are like how tos because people are as interested in business advice on YouTube as they are like, I want to figure out how to build a Divi site. So yeah, I think you know, you could you could have a basic presence on you, but would definitely it’s not something I would ramp up until you can do more like visuals. So yeah, blog podcast, that’s where it’s at. Now, the next question with that, so that’s the content strategy, which is great. What does that funnel to? Like? What Where do you want everyone to go to?

Chris 15:28
Yeah, so the original plan was to create a suite of courses, you know, similar to what you’ve done? And then, you know, trying to find a niche within the niche, you know, because obviously, like you said, We’re direct competition, but I’m not, I’d have no heart to steal people from you, you know, so I’m trying to find things that, like you haven’t talked about, and then kind of hone in on that stuff. Right. So that’s why I did Upwork for web designers, right? Because that’s kind of a niche that I found success in early on. And there’s not a lot of people talking about it. And so, so I went for it that that launch went great, you know, like had a had a five figure launch with it. And I was super excited about it. But we and I’m sure you’re familiar with this, anytime you launch a course based on another platform, like, there’s a possibility that that platform is going to change, then you got to go in and redo content. And that’s exactly what happened. Like Upwork was like, Hey, we’re changing everything together. And so

Josh 16:30
Did it happen right after your course?

Chris 16:32
Right after the course. And so what happens

Josh 16:34
That’s how it happens. Yeah, I launched my my Divi WooCommerce course initially, and then they changed a bunch of stuff. And I was like, damn it. Now I have to go in. And that’s the that’s the trouble with with topical courses for sure.

Chris 16:49
Yeah. So So you know, and I mean, the framework was, is there I still just got to go back through and redo the redo some of the visual holes and

Josh 16:58
You don’t have to blow up the whole course just update it with some of that guy. Yeah, that’s what I’ve done with some of my like Divi courses, if when they update things, I just go in and add new lessons, or revamp some of the previous ones. Yeah, I did just do a second version of my maintenance plan course, which is completely revamped, much more in depth, concise on some of the videos. But yeah, in most cases, the topical ones, I just do the same thing. Just update lessons revamp where I need to.

Chris 17:26
Yeah, so that’s so of course, of course, sweet is part of it. Another part of it is is just web design resources to be like a one stop shop for web designers. So creating templates. When it comes to like WordPress themes, obviously, I’m connected with show it so creating show with themes. And then creating some design assets, everything for mood boards, and all that kind of stuff. So try to be that resource as well.

Josh 17:54
Can I give you some like, here’s what I would do advice.

Chris 17:57
Yeah, absolutely. That’s my call.

Josh 18:00
Okay. So based off of what I’ve learned with that is I learned that I’m dropping all of that. Because I thought the same thing I was like, I wanted to do the same thing I like wanted to be where all Divi web designers would go for layouts and templates. And what I realized is there’s such a massive market for that stuff that there’s no way first of all, I could compete. And I’m a pretty good designer, but I’m not the best. Like there are people that I would like I honestly, I would go there for their templates, they’re like, I’ll give you the strategy and the layout. But you know, you can use some of their maybe more advanced design stuff or more advanced templates. For that kind of stuff,

Josh 18:36
You’ll get a much bigger bang for your buck, if you focus on your area of specialties with your courses. Now, if templates and some design stuff are factored in, they’re awesome. Like, for example, my maintenance planning course, I have a maintenance plan layout that is based off of my course. So it was like a perfect add on, it’s like a value add in the course you joined the course, you also get this this layout that you can use to jumpstart your page. That’s how I would include those I would, because you’re just not in a place to be able to manage that. And quite frankly, you probably don’t want to. I mean, I can’t imagine support for doing that at scale.

Josh 19:12
That’s one reason I never became a child team creator, a plugin creator, is you have to do that stuff at scale. And you’re getting people in the market who are like just starting out with no budget and they they barely want something that’s you know, I mean, if they’re going to move up from free, it’s gonna be like 10 bucks. So you don’t want you don’t want those people. There’s a ton of other resources for them. I’m not saying they’re bad people. There’s just there’s other sites and marketplaces. For you, Chris. I think in order to grow self made and keep it sustainable, even as a side hustle and balance, double is balanced double word?

Chris 19:51
We’ll make it one it is here.

Josh 19:55
You need to focus on the good, your best students, the ones who you’re going to attract Honestly, you’re fine to bring the people in on the business end of things and I wouldn’t worry about stealing people from me because I’ve learned that even if we even if you had the Christ Mistrek business course, it’s gonna be way different than mine. Sure, because it’s based off of your experience like so I have two of my closest colleagues are David Blackman and Tim strife ler with with Divi life and Divi space. They’re like the big players in the Divi realm. Well, they have a Divi expert business course. And it is 100% Complete competition with me.

Josh 20:34
However, we have a lot of the same students because their business experience is completely different than mine. So the way I do my contract and sales and process is different than their so we actually have a lot of students who go through both and what they like, and then it’s awesome. So yeah, I wouldn’t be worried about that. And I realized that your suite of courses are going to vary from mine. Now what’s cool about that, is you and I can be partners, and I know you’re an affiliate from for me. So like, for example for me, if somebody comes to me and wants to get clients through Upwork, I’m like, sweet, I’ve got a guy. Here’s Chris, you know, he’s got some free resources here, we did a podcast episode about it. Now, here’s his course.

Josh 21:16
And then I’m going to feel it, I can get back and kick back in saying for you, like if you don’t want to do a course, on design or SEO or maintenance plans, you send them to my course it’s a win win. So yeah, that’s how you and I will be able to be coopetition in this like, you don’t have to worry about competing with me. I don’t have to worry about competing with you. We’ll have some overlapping content, but we’ll also have a lot of partnership type of stuff. Yeah. So for you, what is your what is your suite of courses? What do you envision for that? And what do you have now? Do you just have one course? Or do you have multiple,

Chris 21:48
Just one for now. So the Upwork for web designers? Well, and then I’ve got the freebie web designer starter kit course, which is just like, here are the resources that I use to learn everything. And here’s kind of the process that I took, it’s you know, it’s like a four video course it’s not it’s just it is a freebie course in all, you know, expensive purchases.

Chris 22:08
So, here’s, here’s the thought. So I’ve got off work for web designers. A lot of my folks that come to me are like just kicking the tires with web design, you know, so their questions are, how do I get my first clients? Right? And so my next course will be, you know, a much lower price course, but it’ll be, you know, your first $1,000 in web design clients in six months kind of thing, you know, so. So something that’s just like, here’s how you get clients, here’s starting your business. Exactly. Because I, you know, I do I do 15 minute coaching calls, and almost 75% of the coaching calls that I do, that’s exactly what everybody has a question about. So it’s like, okay,

Josh 22:55
But you’ve got to 25% That might be a little more advanced, right,

Chris 22:59
Sure. 100%, you know, so then the, the other part of that is, you know, 75% of that 25% is systems and processes. So how do I, what’s the, what’s the pathway for me doing a web design project with a client. And so that would be the third course that I that I put out after after that one. And that would be a little bit more involved than just like the, you know, 1k You know, first one, yeah, for your business kind of stuff. So those are the two that I have in the queue. No development on yet, because I’m just trying to, you know, I launched the Upwork for web designers, but I did it an open closed model. And so I’m gonna open it again, hopefully, before summer, and then eventually put it on evergreen to where it’s just always open. But for now,

Josh 23:45
Yeah, that’s still what I recommend. I personally, What’s tricky about me with open and closed courses is like, if your course is closed, I can’t refer it as a partner. That’s really tricky. I remember I had a somebody else in the Divi room. Michelle Noonan with Divi soup, I don’t even know she’s still doing stuff, but she was one of the first with Divi courses. And I sent a bunch of people to her CSS course. And they all came back and said her courses close and I was like, oh, man, like what a waste What a waste. And I get the I get the mindset of scarcity. But at the same time I I’ve learned it can be both ways. Like you can have a course that’s evergreen, but then have like launch periods or webinar periods or deals. So that’s the way I would go about it. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris 24:30
Like and and that is like that’s the plan I you know, I there was just a lot of fear of like, man is this course going to be any good is anybody can actually benefit from it. And so I didn’t want to put something on evergreen and like people be signing up for it and not be helpful, you know? Yeah. So that’s why I was like, let me open it up. This first time, pull it down, and then fine tune it and then open it again. Fine. Tune it and then later I get an evergreen subject.

Josh 24:58
But yeah, that’s cool. Did you get some good news? Like if you got there, yeah, that’s all the proof you need. So get some testimonial social proof, there you go. So but I don’t want to, I don’t want to glance over this, like 25% of your of your, you know, calls that you’re taking, because here’s the thing, it probably goes back to the most black and white rule that we all know. And that is a 20% of your clients are going to make 80% of your income. So right, that’s who you should focus on.

Josh 25:25
I don’t think you should neglect the people who are just getting started. But you are going to have to do that at scale. And it’s really hard to do that Sure, with the minimum amount of time that you have. So I would do is personally, Chris, I would make your next course the systems and process course for the business, the people who are building it, the people who are maybe making 10 25k 50k, and they want more of your stuff. Now, I have my business course on my maintenance plan course. But again, though there, you might have some overlap in that. But if you’re not going to dive into maintenance plans, and again, that’s where like, in your course, if they want to set up hosting and maintenance plans, you send them to me. And then same for me, I send them to your Upwork course when it’s when it’s evergreen.

Josh 26:08
So I think you and I could really work well with that. Because now you have an offer for the business people who are always going to spend more. And because you’re doing your podcasts, you’re probably bringing in a lot of the business people in there and you may not even realize it. Yeah, because the podcasts it like for me, my top sellers, my most valuable products are my bundle, which has all my courses. And then my business courses, my business in my main is planning course, those are my top three.

Josh 26:38
I can’t tell you how many people come into those and say I came through your podcast, like your podcast has been huge. It just tends to attract the people who are serious about business, some on YouTube, but not as much. So you’ve already got like the pieces in play, I think the the systems and processes would probably need to figure out like a nice, sexy name for that course. But whatever, whatever you do with that, that’s what I would do. I would say to don’t make like a massive robust version of the course do just do like a version one. Do like a, you know, basic processes systems for building your web design business. And then once once you’re able to tap into the you know, the higher because that could be like a $500 course, maybe? what’s your what’s your upward course?

Chris 27:25
It started at 299 or 297. And I think this next go around, I’ll probably go up about $100 You know, just depending on how much more I put into it or or change it or whatever. So

Josh 27:39
yeah, I mean, I that 297 is a good range.

Chris 27:42

Josh 27:42
I would keep it there or 299. Just because that’s for people who are like just getting clients, that’s our that’s a huge investment already a bug. So I personally would use that course just to get more students in in as they get results, then they might upgrade to your like, you know, 499 systems and process course, again, that’s just a start. Eventually, it might be like $1,000 course. But for right now, I would just launch a $500 course. And the thing with that what’s, and with courses, I’ve learned this from Amy Porterfield who have, I’ve actually got coming on the podcast soon, which I’m pumped.

Chris 28:18
Oh, that’s awesome.

Josh 28:19
This Yeah, I’m super pumped about that. But what I’ve learned from him or her is that there are three type of courses, there’s like a starter course, which is more of an entry type course, if it’s paid, it’s going to be like 97 bucks or something. And then there’s a spotlight course, which is more like, like my maintenance plan course, it’s, you know, heavy on this topic. But it might be 234 100 rains. And then there’s like a mastery course, which is like your 1000 $2,000 courses. That’s huge.

Josh 28:48
So I would not go that range yet. And I’m not even at that range. My business course is worth that. But I keep it at 500 because it’s helping people build their businesses.

Chris 28:58

Josh 28:58
And then more often than not, they buy my other courses. So they’re usually around $1,000 customer. So I say all that to say you got your upward course I would def I mean, unless you feel the need to redo anything, I would I would launch that and go evergreen and then you could do sales periods moving forward. And then I would focus on the the systems and processes more business style course to get your 25%. And in then you could fill in this other course that’s like starting your business. Big the question with like the up work thing versus the other courses. I feel like they might be similar, because you’re still talking about like getting clients and starting your business. So yeah,

Chris 29:43
Well, I you know, my recommendation is not to start with Upwork because you’ve got to have in order to get any traction on up work, you have to have at least a few projects under your belt to show as a portfolio on up work or very there’s very little chance of you actually getting a client But you know, I think you’re right, I think, you know, focusing on the thing that is going to make more money and have a bigger impact on on people who were kind of already in that place of making money is yeah,

Josh 30:12
You might as well you don’t have anything to lose there, you’re already attracting them with your with your podcast, particularly because your brand is self made web design, you’re getting people who are like, motivated and on it, and they want to succeed pretty quick. So yeah, that’s what I would do that because yeah, the natural thought is probably to do like the web design starter course, and then eventually do a bigger one, but you’re gonna get people starting their their web design business, but then you’re not gonna have anything more for them.

Josh 30:40
So I feel like you might as well start with the business course, then they can always get your Upwork course, for more clients, because they’re already past the starter, they’re already past that started place. And then you can have three, you could have your starter web design course, you gave your Upwork course, which is more of a spotlight, like, you know, peers, the massive in depth guide on just Upwork in any one of your systems and processes course. And then that’s, that’s a lot there to, you know, people, you’ll attract the people who are learning web design, or really, they’d be starting their web design business, and in growing their web design business, and they can filter in and out of those.

Josh 31:18
So yeah, because that way, when you do your starter course, you’ll have those other two there that they can upgrade to, which is awesome. The worst thing for, for somebody is to like have a course. And then they they got really good results. They want to pay you more, but you don’t have anything for them.

Chris 31:35

Josh 31:35
So that’s what I would do with those two.

Chris 31:38
Yeah. Okay. All right. Yeah, that’s good advice, man. I really appreciate it. I do you think with those with that suite of free courses, that it would be something that would would be able to replace my full time income with show it? Or do you think like, I would need more than just those three? Or

Josh 31:54
What would be what would be an income goal for you.

Chris 31:58
So I need to make at least 120 If I’m on my own. And so, you know, right now with, show it I don’t make that much, but they cover so much with insurance and 401k. Yeah, all that kind of stuff. So

Josh 32:15
That is the benefit with a job is those things? Yeah, cuz generally, you’re gonna need to, you know, double your income if you’re gonna pay for all that. But the caveat is, yes, you do what you want, and you get your freedom back. So you can do it at scale. Yeah, I mean, I, so it would depend on it would, it would probably just depend on your content cycle and how you launch and stuff. And this is where like, the freelance thing could help if you turn that on and off. But I still think you could probably keep everything as is and get a good feel for the courses.

Josh 32:50
Now, again, with courses, you’ll have like big periods, big launches, and then you know, low periods, depending on your content strategy, but I definitely 10k A month is reasonable with I mean, you figure Okay, calculator time. So you’ve got so Okay, how much would so the upper course, I would still keep that like, 299? Okay, I really, I really think over 300 is going to push it for your clientele in that range.

Chris 33:24
Would you say like when I go evergreen to bump it up to 399? And then put it on sale for 299? Like, like, that’s

Josh 33:31
You could. Yeah, yeah, you I was still I still feel like that’s more of an entry course, just because it’s such a spotlight type thing. So you know, I just don’t think you I don’t feel like you have the need to go past 300 Yet with that, especially if you have your business course your your systems course, I would still I would be more focused on building your student base, and getting them results at a at a lower price range, because they’re going to be 100% more willing to upgrade. So I would Yeah, I would keep it like 299 Personally.

Josh 34:07
And then your business course your systems processes that would totally be worth, you know, a 500 range. Because that’s more business range. And then if you were to have a spotlight, like start your web design journey type thing, that could be another 299 Like you could keep it you know, version one, you could keep that range. So that’s already over $1,000. So 1000 bucks on average for all those courses. Obviously, if you get 10 of those a month on average for everything, then that leads you well over the six figure range, but even if somebody is like half of that, if you got 20 people signing up a month on average, then you still get a get close to the six figure range with those products.

Chris 34:53

Josh 34:54
So that one that’s why I feel good about like, you may not Eclipse your income right away. but you could definitely work up towards getting to the point where your courses are on average, you know, like maybe half of that income. And then if you filled in with freelance work, then you get definitely,

Chris 35:11

Josh 35:12
You could definitely get to that range, especially with the core stuff, if you’re ongoing supporting with keeping your content going. And then what I would do personally for you, Chris, is just do like a monthly call with all students. Yeah, just do it, you know, Zoom webinar, or whatever you want to do and get a feel for, like, where their needs are and what they need help with. And as you answer questions for them over and over, they’ll stick with you. And yeah, and you’ll get more sales that way. But the trick would be first to get those other courses go on just to have that little sweet…

Josh 35:44
Because, again, right now, like, you know, self made, web designer isn’t really making anything because he had one course launch that went well, but then that’s it. So like, right, I mean, they could pay for consulting, probably. But yeah, I would do those those, you know, it’s kind of like a mini suite of courses. And that would be, you know, evolution, one, you would at least have a few courses. And then again, I’ve got my courses that will fill in the gaps. So when somebody asks you about SEO, you could say like, well, here’s some tips, here’s a couple podcasts episodes, you know, but my colleague, Josh has the in depth guide on this, and then you get an affiliate payment.

Josh 36:17
So it’s almost like, I mean, shoot, even if you if you start send over people, to me, it’s a win win, because you might make 500 bucks 1000 bucks a month, that can show in some of that content, too, that you don’t have to create, you know, so because that’s kind of one thing I’m learning like, I was going to make a big email marketing course. And then I realize, my colleague, Pat Flynn, and Amy Porterfield, like they have the robust courses on that I’m just gonna be an affiliate for them. Because I’m gonna teach the same thing. Same with like podcasting. So I’m going to focus on what I do, and just being an affiliate for the other stuff if I can’t, or don’t want to take it on.

Chris 36:52
Yeah, yeah, no, that’s great. Josh, I really appreciate it, man, thanks for taking the time to, to chat through everything, I think now is just sitting down and making a plan and going for it. So

Josh 37:03
Yeah, I feel like you’re in good shape for all that, it’ll be really cool for you to actually have more stuff to sell for self made. And you could always do like, you could do advance consultations, one on one, but those as you know, they get time consuming. And you just can’t do it at scale. But it’s probably really valuable early on, they get a feel for what people need. But again, if you can do that with your students, like monthly calls with your students, you’ll that’s how I learned so much. I learned so much about what the need is, and what their biggest questions are.

Josh 37:34
Yeah, I really think that would be a great way to go. And again, the this this pool and this idea to like, do all the templates and designs, I understand that pull but I would just say include what you need to in those courses. And again, you just you don’t want to you don’t want to be the the marketplace for I hate to say bottom of the barrel, but it is it’s the people who don’t have any budget and 10 bucks is like $10 Yeah, you’ve got a lot of like business principles that you could share with people who are serious about their business, and those are gonna pay 200 bucks, 200 bucks, 500 bucks.

Chris 38:12
The other side to that with templates is show it is just a different place for templates. Like we have some folks who are still in their templates for 1000 $2,000. And, and crushing it and show it does all the support. So there’s a little bit of weirdness with like I work for show it, you know, and so is telling templates and working for it, it seems kind of like a little woodmizer has always been okay with those ideas. But you know, like, that’s, that’s another part of the equation like we have, we have folks who like they don’t design bespoke websites, they just sell templates for show, you know what I mean?

Josh 38:49
That that could work out. If you don’t want to burn that bridge is if self made really starts picking up and you do more freelance. Even if you leave show edge, you could say you guys are my preferred template place. And what a great like, you know, when students who come into your stuff, if they’re like, I want templates and resources, you’re like, well, this company I worked for for a long time. They’re awesome. I’m a partner with them. That could benefit them as well. They may make more sales off you building up self may you may become like their best salesman, you know.

Chris 39:16

Josh 39:17
So that’s always kind of a way I think that could i Obviously I try to think partnership first. And like coopetition because there’s so many there’s so many, like, there’s no need for everyone to compete and worry about stealing people’s pieces of the market. Like we there’s no reason we can’t all work together because Right? Not one entity can do it all. It’s just so you got to focus on what you know, and what you do.

Chris 39:44
For sure. Yeah, well, thanks so much, Josh. I really appreciate it, man.

Josh 39:49
No problem, man. Let’s uh, I guess what let’s just wrap up with an action plan, Sally, because she’s got a lot of good ideas, but we got to nail it down and it’s gonna happen. So I would say the freelance stuff. would jack up the rates and just be more just more limited? And you know, you’re have open and closed periods or like, you know, like to I can take two clients right now kind of thing. I would do that there’s no harm in not doing that or doing that. And then for selfmade Yeah, I would. Personally I would open up the the the five are, yeah, the upward course. Evergreen, if you want to do another launch Sure. Like there’s no harm and do another launch, shoot another launch with results and back students stuff because it’s is it up is up to date, or do you need to redo anything?

Chris 40:35
I need to, I need to redo a few things is just just the like, custom. Like, here’s how Upwork works kind of stuff that intro to Upwork.

Josh 40:43
So redo that, redo that and relaunch that and keep it evergreen, there’s like get get some more money coming in will make you feel awesome. And then while that happens, I would actually start the monthly calls with students just say like as a part of this launch. And for everyone who’s already been through the course, I’ll be available once a month, you can start taking questions at scale. And then I would start your systems course. And get that going.

Josh 41:07
Again, version one, you can always change it but at least give you a good feel for what works, what type of results you’re getting. And then then work on the next one, which would be the I guess the starter web design course type of thing? Yeah, and, and that’d be a good way you have a little suite of courses. And then as those become more valuable, your income will start to grow with those if they’re evergreen you can you continue to start pushing podcast people there. Occasional sale periods, maybe a webinar slash training type, period. Sure. And that’ll help build that income up. And then then it’s time to you know, go for it.

Chris 41:44
Yeah, for sure. Well, Josh, I really appreciate it. Man. That’s, that’s great advice. And I think I’m going to do that everything you’re saying is just kind of confirming where my head was in where me and my wife had been having the conversation. So I think you’re right on.

Josh 41:56
Sweet man. Well, yeah, I hope that helps. Like I say, you don’t really, there’s not really need to blow anything up right now. It would just be a matter of pivoting where you’re at with everything. I mean, part of me tells you like go just go courses, just go for it. But I think you could do it in a way that you know, still works for everything. Because it’s really valuable to have that stability with the insurance and stuff but also have some freelance experience and then your your course stuff. But, of course, you got a podcast that’s going on what’s your podcast listenership up to right now?

Chris 42:25
I’m getting about 14 to 1500 downloads a week. And so it’s it’s improved, like the beginning of this year, I just saw huge jump. I don’t even know why. And so because he had me on. Yeah, no, it’s it’s, it’s true. So that’s, that’s happening. And, you know, that’s, that’s with like, little to no promotion, right? I’m just, I’m just keeping this thing running. You know, like, I’m not. I’m not like reaching out to other people and trying to get on their podcasts and doing podcast swap like I was the very beginning to grow the thing. And so

Josh 42:58
That would be phase two for that, for sure. That’s kind of what I’m doing. Here is more podcast swapping, and trying to get on more shows that but that is really only worthwhile doing when your business is set up to succeed. So yeah, yeah. But yeah, I mean, that’s cool, too. They’re like, that’s a great number. And I mean, let my numbers are, I tend to get around. It’s not that much more than that on my podcast. I mean, I tend to get usually between 2000 3000 a month, depending, or a week depending.

Josh 43:28
But again, it’s the people it’s, it’s, you know, now I’m making a few 100 grand. Right now, with the entire setup. Of course, I have a membership involved with that as well. But it really doesn’t take too much at scale when you have people that are a $500 or $1,000 annual client. Sure customer, so yeah, yeah, you get some of those. And you’ll be in business man.

Chris 43:51
Yeah. Cool, man. Well, thank you, Josh

Josh 43:53
You love because I know you love the I know, I know, you want to do self made more than anything. So I

Chris 43:58
I do. I do. You know, I mean, look at you know, I spent so much time making this look way better than what it actually is.

Josh 44:06
Well, you got great content, man. And if you if you search, web design, podcast, or web design, business podcasts, you and I are generally the the two that are most active and come up on all those searches. So it’s almost like they’re some other web design developer podcast. But that’s a little different than like web design business, like you and I are what a couple of the only business web design shows. Yeah, it’s pretty cool.

Chris 44:29
Well, and that’s why I focused on that, because I’m just like, Man, I’m not gonna compete with all these people who are doing, like, build a website in 24 hours with me, you know, it’s like I, you know, I don’t want to be the tutorial guy. Plus, I don’t really like doing tutorials.

Josh 44:41
So don’t Yeah, you don’t have to do it. It’s yeah.

Chris 44:44
So that’s why I was like, I’d rather focus on on getting a business running as a web designer versus everything else.

Josh 44:50
I struggle with that too, because I have colleagues who have like, you know, hundreds of 1000s of subscribers on YouTube, and I’m like, man, now it’d be so cool. I only have 25 You know, maybe I should do that. Maybe I should be the tutorial guy. But same point I always come back to. I don’t it doesn’t fulfill me as much. I mean, I like doing occasional tutorials that are needed for my audience but I would much rather have my web design club at my courses and know a lot of the students and know names and hear their results. So yeah, as long as it provides your family and you love doing it,

Chris 45:20
100% Cool, man. Thanks again Josh.

Josh 45:24
No prob Chris Hope that helps.

Chris 45:26
Thanks. It does talk to you soon.

Josh 45:28
All right, man. Cheers.



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