So, big news!

Huge news, for me at least. And I think it will be for you at some point moving forward. I have officially moved from Google Analytics, and I am no longer using it. I am now using an alternative tool that is GDPR compliant, and is also compliant with all sorts of regulations from a privacy standpoint.

That tool is called Fathom. I’ve been using it for almost a month now and I will tell you, I love it and really enjoy the simplicity.

We actually reference an episode we did not that long ago with the folks from Termageddon, talking about why Google Analytics is not legal in a lot of countries and the changes that you’re going to see in the future.

With a side note, if Paul’s name rings a bell, it’s because he’s also the author of one of my very favorite books “Company of One”. That’s kind of a previous life for him, but that made me feel comfortable moving forward with Fathom because Paul, as you’ll find out, is such a humble and honest, transparent and just really cool dude. He really cares about privacy and what’s going on right now with the human side of internet activity.

If you go to my link at, you can try them out with the free trial. It really is a super cool too. It is robust and complex if you want it to be but at the core, it’s very simple. It’s like a much more stripped down version of Google Analytics without all the fluff that you don’t need.

In this episode:

00:00 – Introduction
04:22 – Greeting to Paul
07:47 – The process to Fathom
10:59 – Two birds with one stone
15:48 – Simplicity and speed
18:47 – Passion behind it
23:02 – Differences from Google
26:22 – No cookie banner needed
28:46 – Educating people
30:47 – Importing data history
33:06 – Using a global CDN
35:57 – Marketing tactic
40:57 – Reporting with Fathom
42:55 – Future integrations
46:16 – Business approach
49:08 – Web design similarities
52:24 – Thoughts on courses
57:37 – Thoughts on web design
1:00:22 – What problems are solved

Try a Free Trial of Fathom Analytics

Connect with Paul:

Featured links mentioned:

Episode #183 Full Transcription

Josh 0:00
Hey friends, welcome into the podcast. This is episode 183. So big news. Huge news, for me at least. And I think it will be for you at some point moving forward. I have officially moved from Google Analytics, and I am no longer using it. I am now using a Google Analytics alternative tool that is GDPR compliant and is also compliant with all sorts of regulations from a privacy standpoint that’s going on. And that tool is called Fathom. In this episode, I am super excited to bring on one of Fathom’s co founders Paul Jarvis to share more about this tool.

Josh 2:03
And actually at the time of recording this interview with Paul, I had not yet signed up for fathom, but this was the like this was the catalyst for me, you will literally hear me through this episode, have the questions. And to get all the answers I needed to feel 100% confident with using Fathom. I’ve been using it for almost a month now. And I will tell you, I love it. And I really enjoy the simplicity and also just knowing that it is compliant with the privacy stuff that’s going on nowadays. And we actually reference an episode we did not that long ago and 169 with the folks from term again, talking about why Google Analytics is not legal in a lot of countries now what’s going on and the changes that you’re going to see now and into the future.

Josh 2:45
So highly recommend listening to that if you haven’t already after this one. But for now, enjoy my interview with Paul and sidenote, you’ll hear about this. If that name rings a bell, Paul Jarvis, it’s because he’s also the author of one of my very favorite books Company of One. Now, that’s kind of a previous life for him, he doesn’t really do anything with that brand. But that even more so it made me feel comfortable with moving forward with Fathom because Paul, as you’ll find out is just such a humble and honest, transparent and just really cool dude. And he really cares about privacy and what’s going on right now with just the human side of internet activity and all the things that are in play with like tracking and again, privacy and all that good stuff. So I think you’re really going to enjoy hearing from Paul.

Josh 3:29
And as I did switching recently to fathom, if you are interested in doing it, too after this interview, you can go to my link at Josh And you can try them out with the free trial. It really is a super cool too. It is it’s it’s robust and complex if you want it to be but at the core, it’s very simple. It’s like a much more stripped down version of Google Analytics without all the fluff that you don’t need. So I’m really enjoying it. I think you will too. After this interview, go to Josh F A Thom to try it out. And of course, it’ll be linked in the show notes at Josh Hall co slash 183. But for right now, here’s Paul, let’s talk about this Google Analytics alternative that’s GDPR compliant. That is Fathom enjoy.

Paul 4:22
Paul, welcome onto the show, man. What an absolute pleasure to have you on dude.

Paul 4:27
Yeah, thanks so much for having me on the show. Josh. Appreciate it.

Josh 4:30
Yeah, we were just joking before went live. Well, actually, it was not a joke at all. You wrote one of my favorite books called Company of One and I had you on my bucket list to get on to this podcast because of that book and because of your background and web design, and just your your mindset and your lifestyle approach to to creative work and life and come to find out our mutual friends at over a Termageddon, referred me over to this Paul guy behind Fathom and I said wait a minute, Paul Jarvis says and like Paul Jarvis company of wonderful all drivers. So the same guy.

Josh 5:02
Well, how about that, man? I am having you on the podcast, we’re gonna talk about Fathom and stuff. But I definitely want to hear kind of your progression and your journey and how you got to this point. But maybe let’s start out with if you wouldn’t mind sharing where you’re based out of. And then I’m curious when, you know, somebody asks you what you do when somebody who doesn’t know you, when they inevitably asked that? What do you tell them?

Paul 5:25
Yeah, so I live on Vancouver Island, which is above Seattle, and over from the city of Vancouver. The nomenclature for the island is kind of weird, because it’s not Vancouver, the city of Vancouver, the island, which are different things. So I usually just say I live in the woods on an island because it is, in fact true. What was the second question already?

Josh 5:46
Second class, I know I’m bad at given two questions at the same time. Second one is for somebody who doesn’t know you, when they ask you what you do. Now, what do you what do you tell them?

Paul 5:55
Yeah, I’m co founder of fathom. website analytics. Yeah, I guess Fathom is GDPR compliant, simple Google Analytics alternative. So just website analytics.

Josh 6:09
And for you know, like your grandma, or somebody who doesn’t even know what a website is, what do you tell them? Because I’m sure it depends on the room. You’re in. Right? Depending on how Yeah,

Paul 6:17
I make internet’s that’s that’s what I’ve told my parents for years is that I just make it just just I make internet’s because it’s always been true.

Josh 6:25
Can you please make your tagline on your email signature? Can you make that your tagline? Because I love that?

Paul 6:31
I’m Paul Jarvis. I make the internet.

Josh 6:32
I make internet. Yeah, man. So let’s, let’s start, I would love to hear again, selfishly, because you wrote one of my favorite books. I would love to hear just your a quick snapshot of your background. And what led you to this point. I know that’s not really a part of your life. Now, you kind of mentioned to me that that’s, you know, a previous life. But if you, you know, I’d love to hear just a brief overview of your web design journey. And then what what led you here?

Paul 6:59
Sure. I mean, I started as a professional web designer in the 90s. So a long time ago, and for the first probably about 15 years, I did websites for clients. And that was my job. I worked as a freelancer basically. So I worked with companies like Mercedes Benz, Microsoft, Shaquille O’Neal, Marie Forleo, Danielle Laporte, I worked with just people are like across the spectrum, I had very focused niches for periods of time, but that changed over time. And then, yeah, probably about 15 years in, I realized, Okay, well, I can probably start, what I realized was that while web design, I liked writing, and all web designers seem to write content for other web designers, and I was like, web designers aren’t paying me money. Why would I write content for them?

Paul 7:47
So I started writing content for people who are hiring web designers. So I started to write articles and books, I had a newsletter that went every Sunday for seven or eight years. Then I started making courses. And then the whole time I was kind of dabbling in software, primarily SAS companies, and they all or half of them kind of work. But they didn’t hit that point where it was like, Okay, this is going so well that I can start to scale back. Other things and with fathom, it kind of took on a life of its own and took off and now yeah, like I said, pre interview, like Fathom is basically that’s the only thing I do not writing books anymore, killed my newsletter, killed my website, killed my Twitter. I don’t exist on the internet, I don’t think very much except through Fathom now.

Josh 8:43
So it was funny. You mentioned that because before we’re alive, I also mentioned this morning, I actually met with Matt Gartland, who is the CEO of smart, passive income with Pat Flynn. And he said that he was a big fan of yours, and that he was under newsletter. And he said, it was funny. Just one day you were like, Hey, this is the last one. This is the new thing now. So yeah, you you went for it, man. And I’m actually curious, what was it about this industry of analytics? That is privacy focused? Like what what is it about fathom that intrigued you and in this whole world, because personally, this is not something that interests me terribly. So it’s why I want to talk to you and find out what the heck’s going on. So I don’t have to read articles about it. What was it about this that intrigued you?

Paul 9:25
Yeah, so I mean, I wasn’t honestly, I wasn’t that interested in analytics before found them either. And it was just kind of the, okay, I have a new customer or client. I’m setting up their website, throw on Google Analytics. Next step. And that was always the thing, right? And then I started to think, Okay, well, Google Analytics. It’s not great, but it works and it’s free. And then I started to think, Okay, well, why is it free? Google isn’t a charity. They’re a multi billion dollar company.

If you’re not paying for the product, you are the product. – Paul quoting Tristan Harris

Paul 9:56
And so I started wondering, okay, what are they doing with all of this data they’re collecting? Hang on, it’s like 75 to 80% of websites on the internet use Google Analytics? I don’t know, nobody knows. And that’s back. That kind of scares me a little bit. And I think it was not the guy who started WordPress who or it was Tristan Harris, from the Center for humane technology. One of those two guys said that if you aren’t, if you’re not paying for the product, you are the product. And I was like, Well, I’m not paying for Google Analytics. So yeah,

Josh 10:28
I think that was a social dilemma, right? I think that was just honest.

Paul 10:32
Yeah. And so I figured, well, this is kind of weird. Like I don’t, I don’t know what’s happening here. And at the same time, I was getting frustrated with every time I would install Google Analytics on a customer’s site, I would have to teach them how to use it. And I just I didn’t want to do like, I don’t want to take a course in learning how to use Google Analytics. And I don’t want to teach others like I’ve made courses before. There are a lot of work. I don’t want to teach people how to use it.

Paul 10:59
So I was like, Okay, well, what if there’s just what if I can kill two birds with one stone here? What if I can have an analytics product that you just pay for? And the business model is simple, like you pay for the thing you want to use? And so privacy can easily be achieved when it’s just okay, well, you’re paying for that we have no reason and no financial incentive to sell that data, because our customers give us money. And that’s how we generate revenue, whereas Google is an advertising company. And then at the same time, I wanted to make something that was just easy, like a single page. Here’s the stats, I don’t know if you I don’t know how old you are. But I don’t know if you remember mint analytics, or I think it was called have a mint or mint. And I don’t remember who created it.

Josh 11:39
No. So I’m 35. I got into the web design world a little later, I got into in 2010. So or at least later, you know, for me, and so my colleagues now. So yeah, I got into it around then I don’t know when mint was.

Paul 11:53
Yeah. So mint was basically it didn’t it didn’t care about privacy, but it was just what it was just simple analytics. It was just, this is the analytics on a single page. I was like, this hasn’t been updated in like 10 or 15 years. And like, nobody is iterated on this idea. And so just for fun one day, I designed a mock up in Photoshop of what I thought analytics could look like, like v one of fathom. And I put it on my Twitter because I was tweeting at the time. And I think like 500 people liked it. And we’re just that fried GIF of like waving the money like, Can I pay for this?

Paul 12:32
And then I was like, Okay, well, I guess there’s an idea here, then we then we, myself and a developer made version, one of it, which was open source, and that was downloaded over a million times. And we were like, Okay, this is great for developers who want to install and maintain and self hosted on like, DigitalOcean droplet or something like that. What about all the other people who just want analytics to work a hosted product? So we made a paid product? And then that, yeah, caught on like wildfire and has taken over my entire life.

Josh 13:03
And I wanted to clarify that too. So that’s great. So you actually had a hand in creating this, it wasn’t something that came across your desk, and you you know, endorsed it and took it to the next level. You actually were on the ground floor of this.

Paul 13:16
Yeah, it was my idea. And I had I went I found a developer to work with he went on and did something else. And then Jack came on board, my current co founder who’s the the technical software engineer wizard, and him and I’ve been working on fathom. Yeah, for I guess, I guess five is probably about four years old. And Jack’s been with a Jack’s been with them for about two and a half years, I think, gosh, oh, yeah. And he’s my co founder. He’s the he’s the my partner. He’s my business wife.

Josh 13:43
Yeah, nice. Well, and it’s interesting, because Fathom really does seem to solve two needs in my mind. One is obviously the privacy aspect, like you talk about, and that quote, we need to reiterate that quote, it’s so great, it’s that if you are not paying for something, or if you’re not paying for a product, you are the product that’s so important to remember in this this digital life now. So that’s a huge aspect. And obviously, our friends a term again, they’re the ones who got me in touch with you. And that’s how we got connected. We can talk about that in a little bit.

Josh 14:13
But the other aspect is the simplicity of analytics. And it’s so funny man, of all my content. My number one most popular piece of content on my YouTube channel, which is now closing in a 400,000 views is a 15 Minute Google Analytics Tutorial.

Paul 14:32
I’ve seen it.

Josh 14:32
So did you see it? You intentionally looked that up? Or did you just happen to see it’s?

Paul 14:36
No, I was looking up Google Analytics Tuts. And that was the one that came up.

Josh 14:42
How about that? Wow. So the reason this is so funny, and mainly is because that’s all I know. I am not a Google Analytics expert. I never go past that first layer, like a little bit. I can dive down a little bit further, maybe layer two, but that’s it. A lot of people ask me can you do like a big advanced course on Google Analytics? I’m like, listen, dude, all I know is in my 15 minute tutorial. That’s all I that’s all I need to know, I just want to know page views, bounce rate, basic stats, little bit of it. For me, I don’t even really care about device or any of that stuff near as much or behavioral flow as much. I just want to know pageviews and bounce rates and basic stuff.

Josh 15:22
So that seems to be the the second knee that you guys fill. And again, the reason I say that is not sound boastful. But I think that tutorial that I had no idea would catch on, solve the need to, I think people wanted to just know the basics of what was going on. They didn’t want a big course, they didn’t want to have to explain Google Analytics over and over. So I think people found that tutorial. And there it is, that’s what happened.

Paul 15:49
I think you’re not alone. I think 99. And what we found running Fathom now for many years is that 99% of people only need that surface layer. And all the rest is just complexity that exists in the software and is getting worse. Now with GA four. And Universal Analytics being retired, they announced that today, as of us recording, I don’t know when this is being released. But we’ll probably announce that Universal Analytics is not only going away, but that data will be inaccessible at some point. So all your historical data is just gonna get canned.

Josh 16:23
Splendid. And the true irony about this is yeah, we’re recording this in mid March, this will probably come out in about a month in April. I just in February, released a new version of that tutorial, not realizing that this was the case. So right after I released that, then I saw the news that that entire thing is going to be scrapped. So yeah, I’m trying to think what to do. But maybe I’ll move into making Fathom tutorials after this because I go very looking forward towards a simplified version, because again, the complex stuff, sometimes it’s nice to have, particularly for ad sets and advanced marketers who need to get into the analytics.

Josh 17:00
But for the average business owner for the average web designer, we don’t need to know that much like just the basics. And I’ve found, and I’m curious to see what you’ve seen with this. And in your experience, Paul with clients, I found that clients often say they want all the stuff. But then two months later, they’re like, oh, just give me the snapshot. Like they don’t you know, they may say they want all the analytics, but they never do two months later, they just want to know pageviews. And that’s it.

We built software that kind of reflects the need of other folks like us who make websites. – Paul

Paul 17:27
Yep. Most people want trends. And that’s why we built fathom the way that we built it. Because we aren’t analytics nerds ourselves. We know how to build software, I know how to design and write for software. My business partner Jack knows how to develop software. But we’re not we don’t spend our all of our lives in analytics data. So we built software that kind of reflects that and kind of reflects the need of other folks like us who make websites for ourselves and for other people to just get that snapshot of this is what’s important. I don’t have all day, I want I’ve a minute of time, I just want to look are trends going up? trends going down? If they’re going down? What can I fix? If they’re going up? Then how can I celebrate?

Josh 18:09
Gotcha. That’s no, the well said. So I would love to hear from your perspective, how you feel about what’s going on with Google and the privacy issues. And I will say we don’t need to dive into this too far. I think Hans and his wife Donata, with trim again, did a really good job recently of kind of hashing this out in Episode 169 of this podcast. So I do recommend for anyone who wants to really hear about what’s going on for about an hour in depth. Go back to that episode. But what’s your take on this, Paul? Because I’m sure this has a lot to do with, you know why you’re so passionate about fathom, but what’s your take on what’s going on with GDPR compliance and Google and all the things?

Paul 18:47
Yeah, so I’m glad they covered it. Because that’s not my forte, I’m not the legal part. We have a privacy officer Re and that’s her job. And Jack understands the technical side of things. I’m just a guy who makes it look nice and writes about it. So from my perspective, I wouldn’t want to I think it’s a risk, right. So using Google Analytics is illegal in the EU, and it’s illegal for anybody that has visitors from the EU, to their website, how that’s enforced. It will see it already has started to be enforced in Europe and in France, Austria, and I think maybe one other place, but for myself, I wouldn’t want to take that risk. I wouldn’t want to risk if I’m a company in Canada or America.

Paul 19:33
The likelihood of somebody suing me over this seems like an unknown but if there’s another option, I would probably just want to go with that right especially when that other option has unlimited data retention, and UAE Universal Analytics is being can next year. It’s also complicated. It also blocked like Google analysts. doesn’t give you most of the data one a data samples a lot. So it doesn’t give you accurate data. And two, it’s blocked by anybody that uses an ad blocker, which is half of the internet. Right? So that’s why we have a solution to get around ad blockers.

Paul 20:12
But I think the whole privacy thing is just, if there is an option to respect your visitors privacy. I would, I would, I would take it. And I mean, given how fast our customer list is growing, like, more and more people are starting to feel like okay, well, it’s just, it’s just easier to derisk in this way, by just switching to a product that does respect privacy. Why don’t we just do that? And I agree, like some people need much more complicated analytics and Fathom isn’t right for them Fathom isn’t right. For every, every person. I don’t there’s no software on the on the planet that’s right for every single person, but for the folks who just need that. This is the high level of how my website is performing, how the contents going, how referrers are working, tracking UTM for marketing campaigns, and conversions through events, then that’s then then it’s a good fit, right? So

Josh 21:10
Do you guys have plans to make it more robust in the future for people who do want to use fathom, but do want another layer back of advanced reporting for ads or anything like that?

Paul 21:19
Yeah, I mean, for now, we do track like, you can track ads through UTM. And you can track conversions through events. And we are adding features like this year is after q1 is like feature feature feature feature being released. But the plan is never to be and I was talking to a to our SEO person today. And she was like, I have to take a course to learn how GA four works. And it’s going to take about a month to do. And I told you if Fathom ever requires a course to learn how to use Fathom we have absolutely failed, right?

Paul 21:56
So we are adding features, we are making the product better. As we get more customers, we will learn from more people, right? So we’re always iterating, making it better and adding things that people want. But there is never going to be a point where Fathom rivals the functionality of Google Analytics. It’s just it’s just never going to happen. Our software is always going to be focused on simplicity and what the majority people need. That aren’t analytics experts that they just want to run their business or run their blog kind of thing. So there’s always going to be more and better features, but never going to be all of the features kind of thing.

Josh 22:31

Paul 22:32

Josh 22:33
So I’ve been sitting on this question for about a month and a half. Because when I interviewed Hans and Donata, with with term again, I asked him, What’s the difference between fathom, and Google Analytics? Like how are you guys looking at stats and traffic? But how are you staying compliant? He said, I don’t know. You’ll have to talk to Paul. So here we are, I finally get to ask the question to you, Paul. What is the difference between you guys with Fathom and Google Analytics? How do you stay compliant?

Paul 23:02
Yeah, so it comes down to tracking information in aggregate. And all that means is, we don’t track individuals across a website, we track the totals. So we can’t You can’t see in Fathom that visitor X went to this page, then this page, then this page, they were using Firefox and they converted and sign up for the newsletter and bought this thing. But we can tell you this when people visited this page, this many people completed this conversion event this many people use this browser, right.

Paul 23:38
So we created something we created a way to anonymize data. So it’s not tied to an individual that has now been copied across the industry like any facet does. Yeah. Any company that does privacy focused Analytics uses our method of hashing and then salting visitor data, then recycling those salts.

Josh 23:58
So it’s almost like it’s, it’s almost like group data versus individual data. That’s how I envision it.

Paul 24:05
Yeah, exact, that’s all aggregate is is just it’s grouping data. So it isn’t tied to an individual which gets into compliance and privacy issues. It’s we’re just going to anonymize all of the visitors, and just give you the data as totals which we find and I guess our customers agree with us, because they stick around is that that data is just as useful to make business decisions. Right.

Paul 24:29
So knowing what pages are the most popular, what events convert at the highest rate, what UTM tags are used to drive the most traffic to your site from each campaign that you run, those totals can be just as useful to making business decisions. As I see Person X did all of these things. And then Google probably tracks them to the next site and the next site in the next site and it’s probably why they’re illegal now.

Josh 24:52
Of course, my with clients and then when I did that initial tutorial on Google Analytics, the thing That always got the most feedback. And the most wow factor was the location mapping to where for anyone who doesn’t know, when you look at Google Analytics, you can go to Geo, you can go to location, and you can literally see by country by state, every little dot will pop up where a computer hit your website. And it was it was always a little creepy to me that it was that pinpointed. So I imagine this is less less, much less intrusive. And just more I mean, do you guys have analytics for locations and stuff like that? But it country? Or

Paul 25:32
Country. Country Only. That’s it? Yeah, there’s other products that do city and not but then if you think about it, you’re like, Okay, well, you can, if you can see somebody’s city, the city is not that big, you can see their browser, you can see the pages, you can see, it seems like it’s creating a user profile of that person, which is antithesis to how Fathom wants to operate, because we want to comply with how things like the GDPR. And other privacy laws that are similar are set up to protect that data from people.

Paul 26:02
And it also means you don’t have to have a cookie consent banner, which I think as a designer, I feel like those are ugly. So our biggest thing was Yeah, yeah, so our biggest thing was okay, how can we comply with GDPR and similar laws so that that isn’t needed? So if you use found them, you don’t have to use a cookie batter? Because I think they’re ugly. And I don’t want ugly things on my website?

Josh 26:22
Yes. Between Yeah, especially as a UX guy like yourself. That’s huge. And our friends at Armageddon are also creating a solution for a cookie list, or they’re having some sort of cookie solution as well. I know which I’m sure is going to be awesome if you’re doing different sorts of tracking, because I don’t know how that would work with like Facebook pixels or anything else. I imagine you’d still…

Paul 26:42
Yeah, I can only talk about if you’re using fathom, you don’t have to use a cookie consent banner without them. But yeah, if you have a Facebook pixel, I would assume you have to if you have a Google tag manager or a Google, whatever the thing is, for ads, you still have to have it. But you don’t need one for Fathom side of things.

Josh 27:00
Yeah, that’s awesome. And the idea of this, like location tracking, I’ve, I’ve never ran across a situation for any of my clients or myself, where I needed to know the exact city of somebody. Now, I guess, depending on the industry, maybe that’s really beneficial for marketing. But

Paul 27:19
Yeah, it depends.

Josh 27:20
For me, I never, you know, like, I never needed that. It’s nice to know how much of my traffic is US versus UK or Europe, or Australia or whatever. But that’s definitely all I need to know. So you’re like you’re selling me more and more on every point, because as of as of us talking right now, I’m still using Google Analytics, but I have a feeling maybe even before we stop recording, I might officially transfer it over to fathom, because it’s making a lot of sense. It’s definitely it makes a lot of sense, particularly for me, and for most web designers for most clients.

Josh 27:53
So yeah, that’s great that that makes a whole lot of sense. Now, when it comes to where you’re at right now, I’m actually kind of curious from you, Paul, like what is? What is the challenge that you’re seeing with this? And I guess you could take this any way you want. But with Fathom like, you’re obviously growing at a rapid pace. But let’s address my mindset. I’m hesitant to leave Google Analytics, because of all the things we’ve talked about so far. I do occasionally do some Facebook ads. And my ad guy, Kevin, we look at Google analytics to see who came through the site where they came from what they did. Obviously, it’s not purse, I don’t mean to personally be intrusive, I just want to know like, Is the money I’m investing working? So how do you I guess it’s kind of a tough question. But is that a challenge for you to help people kind of break out of Google Analytics into this new platform?

Paul 28:46
Yeah, I mean, we do, right? We’re pretty passive about, like, we’re not really, we’re not really hardcore sales on it. But we do. I think the way that we sell is the way that I that I’ve always sold, whether it’s was web design, to web design clients, or courses or books is just education. Right? So educating customers on the fact that Google Analytics is illegal, and you are at risk of fines and complaints to you don’t get to see all of your data.

Paul 29:15
So if you’re running campaigns, you only get to see a little bit of sample data, or the data from people who don’t have ad blockers. So with fathom, if you’re running a campaign, you just create a UTM, the UTM is tracked and found them. And if you use a custom domain on fathom, which gets around ad blockers, then you see 100% of your data. We also remove data from bots and crawlers. I’ve seen screenshots of people’s Google Analytics where they have like 20,000 people on their website, and there’s not really 20,000 people on their website.

Josh 29:44
I had one I had one last year I had this huge spike in traffic. And I was like, Whoa, did I get like, picked up by a, you know, a really popular blog or website or something? No, it was some bot thing.

Paul 29:56
Yeah, exactly. So I mean, and then I guess the The third point is just the simplicity is being able to see the things that you want to see quickly without drilling into reports. I think that actually the fourth thing because we’re recording this today, when Google announced that they’re killing off Universal Analytics, one, you can’t migrate to my knowledge universal to a GA for property, like there’s something that you can migrate. But that historical data has to live in. UA, and that data will be deleted, Fathom has forever data retention, every plan doesn’t matter. All right. And so

Josh 30:33
I think Hans talked about this back in 169, when he talked about moving to fathom. But do you guys, are you able to migrate anything from Google Analytics? Or does it start off with a fresh, clean slate, when you sign up with fathom,

Paul 30:47
We’re working on an importer, which should be out probably by the time this airs, we’ll have a Google Analytics importer. So we’re basically we basically want to help folks save their historical data. So if you A is going away, if they’re nuking all of that data, if you import it before, that happens in a fathom, then that data can stay. There API is about as easy to use as their product. So I can imagine being building a set. But remember, though, we have to be simple.

Paul 31:14
So if we’re building an importer, I’ve looked at other tools, and it’s about 15 to 20 steps to like login to Google Cloud created an API key and all of this and we’re like, we just want to like connect through OAuth and click assign this cites data to this site on Fallon’s data, the end, right, so we’re working on making it very, very simple. So we could have launched this if we if it was a complex thing. But like all of our like, all of our features, right? Everything has to be as simple as possible like that is it goes as far as priorities privacy, if privacy isn’t achieved, we won’t do it, then simplicity, right. So our customers can just do the things that they want to do without having to struggle or learn how to do it or spend hours figuring it out.

Josh 32:03
Would it be possible for me and everyone listening, let’s say, All right, I’m ready at Fathom time, I’m going in. Obviously, we can’t import the old data from Google Analytics yet, but we don’t need to, like close out our Google Analytics, we can just start the new tracking in with Batum. And then would we be able to import our previous data? Like if I lose a month or two, no big deal? It’s not gonna be the end of the world.

Paul 32:24
Yeah, it’s a historical data, the importer is for historical data. So any data you have in Google Analytics can be imported, like if it’s from two years ago, 10 years ago, doesn’t matter, like the importer is going to take historical data. But remember, it’s not going to take all of the data, it’s only going to take data that can be prime matches with your clients that matches up with the data set that we collect data for.

Josh 32:47
Gotcha, gotcha. That’s great to know, especially for web designers. Because again, that I mean, for clients, this is huge. Most everyone listening right now has clients and they’re running Google Analytics. A lot of them are. What’s the other I know there’s one based out of the UK is that Monster Monster insights or something like that?

Paul 33:06
Yeah, there’s a WordPress Analytics plugin, but that runs on your site, so it can slow your site down. Whereas we have a global, we have a global CDN. And we’re one of the while I was gonna say we were the only company and then a couple companies fix, we launched a solution last year, that process part of GDPR is the shrimps to ruling, which means that EU visitor data has to be processed in the EU, by EU owned companies.

Paul 33:06
Otherwise, it can be illegal because the privacy hasn’t denied or might have talked about this, but the Privacy Shield was invalidated, I think in 2020. Yes, so you can’t process EU visitor data in the US or in the EU on us own servers. So what we’ve done is one, we’re a Canadian company. So we have data adequacy ruling. And two, we process EU visitor data in the EU on servers owned by a German company. And then everybody else is processed through our global CDN through AWS or Amazon.

Josh 34:11
So yours, you know if it works in Germany, because this is that’s where everything really started, right? Wasn’t it like as a guy of Austria who there is Maga? He’s friends? Yes, he is like infamous now for being the one who, who spearheaded this movement for privacy. So if it works there, obviously we should be good everywhere else I imagine is the thinking.

Paul 34:31
Yeah, and we are and I guess it’s better than just an EU only analytics company because we can process data fast for everybody outside of the EU and process data in a compliant way for everybody in the EU. So it’s like the best of both worlds where we have a global CDN. We process data faster than anybody else that we’ve seen, but we’re still as compliant as as possible on GDPR and specifically the shrimps to add aspect of GDPR gotcha is pretty, pretty nerdy, but really is just you don’t have to worry about that if you’re a customer of fathom, because we do that automatically for all our

Josh 35:08
Thank goodness, that’s as far as I wanted to go on that. No, but I like your I like your marketing approach. Obviously, I’m a fan of you as a as an author and as a person and your journey so far. So it makes a lot of sense that the way you sell, quote unquote, now is with content. And and it sounds like you take the same approach. I’m a big fan of the guys from base camp. And I remember I think it was the book rework, where they said their goal was to educate their competition. They didn’t really do much marketing, they just out educated made a really kick ass product. And that sounds like you guys have the same playbook as far as writing content producing stuff that is helpful and is going to bring people toward you instead of you know, doing Facebook ads, where you’re like Google Analytics is illegal, go to jail or use fathom.

Paul 35:56
A lot of it, yeah, a lot of its content, a lot of it is word of mouth, as our customer base grows, they are excited to use fathom, and they tell other people, we focus more on support and sales, I would say. So we take care of how we support our customers go above and beyond for customer support, because we know, that’s actually a really good sales channel.

Paul 36:19
So and I knew that when I when I was doing web design for clients, I knew that if I did everything that I said I was going to do, if I was communicative through the entire process, if they saw the results that they that they wanted to see as far not things like if you redesign my site, I’ll make a million dollars kind of thing. But just results of like, the project is gonna take three or four months, you’re gonna get this at the end of it, and this is what you’re gonna be able to do with your website. And then just simply delivering on the things we we we do that with found them where.

Josh 36:51
It’s awesome.

Paul 36:51
Customers know exactly what they’re gonna get. If they have a question, they email us jack or I respond, like customer service is literally just me answering emails, and Jack answering the really technical emails will eventually hire for that because we kind of need to. But we’ll still be like, we both feel that support isn’t just something that needs to be done by whomever, whenever they get to it, it’s that is very, very important. Because like, honestly, that’s one of our biggest sales channels right now is making our customers happy. It’s like, it’s a no brainer to just keep keep doing that.

Josh 37:29
That’s a great lesson to just outside of this topic is if you do a really good job for a few, you know, a handful of customers, that is the most important thing, because I’ve found just complete a silo, I’ll just derail us happily here. As a web design coach, I see a lot of people who just focus on new clients, like I gotta get a new client gotta get a new client. As you know, Paul, on a web design, you don’t need that many clients to get to six figures, if that’s what you need to have a nice life.

If you focus on a handful of clients, or maybe a couple dozen clients at most, and do a really good job for them, you’re gonna get referrals. – Josh

Josh 37:57
So if you focus on a handful of clients, or maybe a couple dozen clients at most, and do a really good job for them, you’re gonna get referrals, and they’re gonna pay you more importantly, over and over and over again, as I think you’ve answered this question, but I was gonna ask, like, has your experience or how has your experience in web design? How was that translated to fathom, and how and how you’re running this and how you’re marketing it?

Paul 38:20
Yeah, retention is cheaper than acquisition. And I learned that more than 20 years ago, and it stuck in my head. Not much does, but it’s stuck in my head. And I just know that if I can continue to keep people happy. And that’s how it works. It’s funny too, because like, when you think about web design, you don’t think of that as being similar to a SaaS company where it’s subscription based. But for me, the problem I had was, it was harder and harder to take on new customers, because I would never lose existing customers, they would keep coming back, they would keep wanting more work.

Paul 38:54
And that’s why I had a waiting list for the entire time that I was a web designer, because I focused on making the current projects and the current people involved in the project as happy as possible. One day would tell everybody and two, they would just always come back to me for more and more work. If you’re not getting repeat customers, you’re doing something wrong in web design. I 100% believe that to be true.

Josh 39:15
That’s very well said. And I think maybe what might be a little bit different now in the landscape of web design compared to when you started for sure. But even on to when you got away from web design is this subscription model is becoming way more popular. And the cool thing is I personally like the hybrid approach. I like still doing a one time redesign for a brand or website but then having the hosting maintenance and recurring services like ongoing SEO copy conversion based stuff that can accompany that. I love that model.

Josh 39:49
And what’s what’s kind of cool about what I see now as a as a web design coach, is I see all the different models and they all work it just depends on you know what you have You want to craft your perfect service. I personally like the hybrid approach. But I’ve got a student right now shout out to Steve, who is purely subscription. And he does all subscription based web design, which is really cool. And I still have a lot of folks who just do one time builds.

Josh 40:15
But yeah, I guess I see the landscape being really open ended, which is actually really cool. For web designers now. And obviously, you know, this is a big part to it, of how we support our clients ongoing because I found one of the biggest keys to selling maintenance plans for me and hosting plans was clients want to know, I was looking after their site. And even if they didn’t care that much about the details of Google Analytics, they at least wanted to know or they at least wanted to see just some a monthly snapshot of traffic and stuff. So that actually kind of leads me to another question I had on on reporting. What are your what is your reporting options look like? With fathom? Do you have basic advanced? Are you going to integrate those with those holes? Eventually?

Paul 40:58
Yeah, I mean, we have, as you could probably guess, very simple reporting. And it’s funny to to to mention the, the packages, I’ve noticed that even though I’ve been out of web design, for for many years now we have a lot of clients, a lot of our customers, our agencies are freelancers who include Fathom in the package that they set, let the maintenance package that they sell, because every Fathom plan, you can have up to 50 discrete websites, and you can create email reports for each of those 50 websites. You can it’s something we haven’t touched on, but I think is really useful for especially the web design crowd is we have free uptime monitoring.

Paul 41:38
So every site you out on fathom, you can just you can turn on uptime monitoring, so you can get a text a Slack, a telegram or an email if a site is offline, which if you go to a client and say, Hey, I noticed your site was offline, but I got it back up for you. And nobody noticed. Like, that’s kind of a big deal. Like that’s yeah, it’s thinking about like, should I pay for this retainer contract and they get that they’re like, No, I’m gonna keep paying for this.

Josh 42:02
Yes. Are you familiar with manage WP?

Paul 42:06

Josh 42:07
So actually funny, Paul, I asked you a text question when you did a webinar with Hons and De nada I was actually on that. I caught about half that webinar I actually came up with what I hope you guys do, which is Fathom getting I think it’s what I call it where hopefully you guys partner up one day and just have this awesome compliant privacy analytics machine. But I had asked you in there if you have any hooks in with manage WP and I know it’s not something you guys have right now. But I the reason I say that is I use manage WP my agency does and I recommend it and my maintenance plan course all my students. But the cool thing is it sounds like you could use manage WP for uptime, monitoring, updates all that stuff. But then you could have a separate report for Fathom or maybe include it in the same email or something like that.

Paul 42:55
Yeah, exactly. We always have like integrations are important. And we that’s why we have a WordPress plugin. That’s why you can see your analytics data, you can see a Fathom dashboard when you’re logged into WordPress as admin. But right now we’re focused on our core product, like there will be integrations, more integrations in the future. And if more of our customers want that manage WP integration, that’s something that we will definitely look at. But right now integrations are on the backburner. But also people keep building integrations for us. So people keep building like theirs. I was looking at Kirby today it says it’s a flat file CMS like WordPress, but flat file instead of WordPress. And there’s two plugins already on Kirby for found them. Like okay, these even come from so that people are making people are making integrations with them. Our API is going to be public this year. It’s an early access right now, which is going to open the floodgates for integrations. So there’s a lot on the horizon as far as that but for right now, because our team is so small, it’s a handful of 1000s a handful of people. It’s probably how you read company of one, you know how I feel about Yes, yeah. It’s always going to be a small a small team.

Josh 44:15
That actually draws me and I think a lot of folks listen and watch and I think we’re drawn to more small teams just like clients are there I worked with so many clients who were who were burned from agencies and they did not want to big agency they want to Josh and a couple team members that was it. So I think that’s maybe what separates you guys from quote unquote the competition right now to is I like that. Like I like knowing it’s you and a few others right now.

Josh 44:40
I realize it’s going to grow and you’re going to scale but there’s also ways to go about that that you can avoid being a massive company that is a faceless you know person, personality list company. Its personality, its personality, less a word. It is here by God it is now makeup over heard on this show. So there we go. And I feel terrible for the folks who don’t speak English as the first language. And they’re there. I just had so much so funny, complete tangent. Last week, a guy from India reached out send me videos that he loves the podcast. And he reads the transcripts of the transcriptions because he’s learning English. And I was like, I’m so sorry, man. I hope I hope it goes all right.

Josh 45:20
But anyway, I love I love that I think that really draws me to the company as well. So it makes a lot of sense to be able to handle that like that. And again, I view you a lot like I view and I say you as an fathom, kind of like Divi, which is the theme that I still use, and I am a big part of their community. It was very similar even back when I started using Divi back in 2014, it was a smaller team with Elegant Themes who created Divi, and they said the same thing. They were like, we’re focusing on the product, we get tons of feature requests, tons of integration requests, those will come some people will make their own plugins like you talked about, but the core product is the most important thing. So that definitely reassures me with with, you know what you have going forward? Did you set out like that? Like, did you is your mission statement? Say you know, a certain thing about that? Or is it just natural? Is it based off of you know, your personality and your approach to business?

Paul 46:16
Yeah, I mean, there’s, I think we just always know that there’s always going to be things that we can do on our core product to make it better, more refined, easier to use, and as compliant as people as we can make it where people don’t have to worry about it, or do a bunch of stuff to make it compliant. Right. So like there’s, there’s so many things with apprentice so fun, to be honest. Like, it’s so fun for the product to be yours where you can make these decisions. Right?

Paul 46:46
Like, sometimes I remember using other products where I was like, Okay, this product is amazing. And then they start to grow. And then they start to go in a different direction. Like this product isn’t for me, Oh, yeah. I like what this product can always be for people like, like Jack and I and for the customers that we have, because we focus on our existing customers and their needs. So as long as you are a customer and we’re listening to those sorts of things, then it’s always going to be it’s not obviously going to be perfect, where we’re meeting the needs of every single customer ever. That would result in a very complicated product. But we try to listen to

Josh 47:18
Google analytics.

Paul 47:21
We try to listen to like the overarching themes of like, okay, what are most people asked for, or what is the problem? Like, it’s just like, if a client says, I want the button to be here in blue, it’s like, okay, well, what problem are you trying to solve? And if you get to what the problem is that they’re trying to solve a may not be the solution that they’ve come to, because they’re not web designers. Right? So like, we always try to peel back the layer to like, Okay, well, what are they? What’s this person trying to solve? Like, what do they want to accomplish with this? Because what they’re asking for they they don’t build analytic software, right? That’s our job.

Paul 47:54
So it’s our job to listen to what the problem is, and then figure out if the solution is accurate, because sometimes it could be for sure. Or if there’s a better solution that they just haven’t thought of, because they’re used to their business. And we’re used to the business that we run, right? So like we’re always trying to listen to so we come up with solutions to things that nobody asks for. But they’ve asked for in a different way, and they’ve had a different solution for it. But we’re like, Okay, well, we can solve this for everybody if we do it in this other way.

Josh 48:22
And I think there’s a big benefit with your background to being a web designer, being an agency owner or being a an entrepreneur, and being in these different phases of the web printer world. It’s funny, we were talking about this idea of a web printer, which, you know, you were on the cusp of as an author, and of course, great, I’m actually just personally curious. You’ve sold a lot of different things and a lot of different ways between being a web designer, being an agency owner, being a course creator, being an author, what’s what’s it like being in a SaaS company, cuz it takes a whole different skill set? Well, I’m just curious, like, how do you? Yeah, well, what’s the difference with how you’re, you know, running this between all the different ways you’ve sold and done work?

Paul 49:08
Yeah, I mean, compared to web design, it’s a volume thing. Like I was charging 10 to 30 grand a website when I was doing web design. So I need I need like you said, I needed like, a dozen clients a year and I was like, This is amazing money, like this is just this. And now it’s like, well, their base plan starts at $14 with fathom, right? So like you need is just like what’s selling selling books? I think the book company one costs anywhere from 10 to 20 bucks and as an author with a traditional publisher, I probably get 50 cents to $1 Right so like understanding the the volume and

Paul 49:44
I mean, that’s why we tested things man like That’s why in the beginning Fathom was a screenshot and then found them was an open source project and then Fathom started with, like a single plan for for something that people could pay for, because I knew that In order for it to work out, like I can’t sell 12 subscriptions to fathom at $14 a month. Live. Microphone alone costs more than that, right? So I we needed to test vault we needed to test the fact that there was that there could be volume there. And luckily those tests worked out. But a lot of things are so similar.

Paul 50:24
Like it is like all of the things that we were talking about, like just being being communicative with people being able to do the things you say you’re going to do be able to listen be able to listen to, not the thing that they’re asking you to do, but the problem you’re trying to solve they’re trying to solve. And so I think in that regard, there’s just a ton of similarities. But it’s also fun to watch income compound, right? Because the beauty of sass and the beauty of having things like, like that business model, is that, okay, it’s cool if like, a couple dozen people pay for fathom a day, but that’s only a couple 100 bucks, right?

Paul 51:06
But then like, if you look at that, and you see like, okay, every day, dozens of people sign up for this. And then every day, hundreds and hundreds of dollars are added to the pool where it just keeps growing. And our churn rate, I think is like 2%. Like our churn rate is ridiculously low. All right, so like if our churn rate is almost a rounding error, but our growth keeps compounding slowly, but like still compounding then it’s it’s viable, and it doesn’t take it’s funny because like, when I first started with digital products, I was like passive income. And like I should have watched more of what Pat actually meant by passive income, right? Yeah, it is like this is a full time Fathom is a full time job for a number of people to get that passive income. But so it still works.

Josh 51:55
Same thing with courses, as you know, like, I make the bulk of my income and revenue with courses. I do have a coaching community that is subscription based, it’s recurring, which is cool, it’s very different than the courses because my courses are one time. Similarly, like, it’s it’s not service work, but it’s not quite, you know, SAS style, would you view like, course, in digital product sales is kind of a middle between a service base and a SAS style product.

Paul 52:24
Yeah, because you can get volume, like I did courses almost exclusively for many years. And I would have some months where my income was, like 100 times what it was a month before, because I was just like, oh, this is course launch month. Right? So in that way, but you could still sell like I didn’t have to work with the way that my courses worked was you it’s self paced, so I didn’t have to. So it was different from web design, where I didn’t have to work with that person. Every time somebody bought it. I could sell to 2000 people or 100 people, it didn’t make any difference in my workload. But I still had to do work and strategize to be able to launch it in a way where people would want to buy it. Right. So it would be the 1000s of people instead of hundreds or dozens of P Yeah. Yeah,

Josh 53:10
I found that too. I’ve definitely I’ve sold a lot of different things in a lot of different ways. Now at this point in my career, and courses are awesome, but extremely tricky. And there may be no more sense of a like highs and lows, because you I have experienced you have really good months and really bad months depending on what’s going on, depending on the time of year depending on launches, depending on sales, depending on webinars or other content you’re putting around it. So it is pretty interesting. Yeah, I just I was just kind of curious. I wanted to get your your take on that.

Paul 53:44
Yeah. Yeah, it’s super different. I only had time to open up my courses twice a year. And people were always like, Well, why don’t you leave them open the whole year, I’m like, I don’t have time. Like there’s so much work that goes into these courses, I need to just focus on either launching them or focusing focus on making them better for 10 months. And that’s where I found that the most revenue

Josh 54:03
or supporting them if you want to get ongoing, so that’s that’s why I sold my web design agency in 2020. I was like, I literally cannot support my courses. I have a suite of web design courses. I can support them and do client work. I just can’t I can’t do both at the same time. Otherwise, they’re both going to be they’re going to bid they’re going to be half assed and terrible each one of them and I don’t want.

Paul 54:24
That’s why we have two cheeks.

Josh 54:27
That’s good. Yeah, it’s true. That’s great. Other than that, that’s awesome. Yeah, it’s true.

Paul 54:32
I have so many dad jokes.

Josh 54:34
I love that I love well I have I have two and I think I can say this by the time this comes out we just found out we’re gonna have a third on the way here so I thank you thank you yeah, I love a good dad joke. I have my road casts are with the dad joke drum but I’m not gonna hit that on a podcast. But ya know, it’s really fascinating and it looks I know to for for folks who are doing the again the hybrid model with selling One time service and a subscription model, I tell my students, it does take a different set of selling, and experience and skill or conference, whatever you want to call it to sell, because they’re very different services.

Josh 55:12
I’ve had some people, I had a client who paid $4,000 for a website like that just no problem. I asked him to go on my hosting and maintenance plan. And it was like I killed his dog. It was he was like, Oh, it was I’ll know about that. It was like 49 bucks a month, like you dropped four grand on your website, and you don’t want to pay 50 bucks a month to host it and maintain it. So it is interesting the way people buy you know, certain services are pretty fascinating.

Josh 55:37
But anyway, I’ve derailed is pretty good. But I think I get a good feel for you know what you’re up to with fathom. I know, we’re getting close on time, lunch is coming around for you on the west coast. So this has been awesome. Paul, thank you so much for your time and for sharing a lot about what you’re up to. I found this fascinating, just based off of your experience and what you’re up to. I have a final question for you. I will say, I’m a part of your viewer affiliate program, so everyone can go to Josh To check it out. For anyone listening, watching. If you’d be so kind do that.

Josh 56:12
I’m definitely I’m saying it public I’m switching over to fathom. So I’m really excited about where you’re at now and seeing what you’re going to do moving forward. Final question for you, Paul. Actually, before we get to that, where would you like people to go? Obviously, they can go to my link that’ll be linked. But is there like a certain resource or a video or something you’d like? Everyone watching to to check out just to get more familiar with you?

Paul 56:35
Um, yeah, I mean, there’s a video doesn’t have as many views as your Google Analytics one. But there’s a video on if you just, I think if you just type in Fathom analytics demo in YouTube, there’s a video that I did that has a walk through. So people are like, I don’t know about fathom, or I don’t know how it works. There’s, I think it’s a, it’s under 10 minutes, and it taught, I talked you through how the entire software works.

Paul 56:59
Okay, we can link that in the show notes. Looks like there’s a couple which one?

Paul 57:04
Oh, yeah, a bunch of one on forgot that a bunch of people have been doing them that it’s for the it’s under the channel Fathom analytics. Okay. So it’s like the the official one. I’m not really that

Josh 57:15
The official. Gotcha.

Paul 57:17

Josh 57:19
Okay, I think I’m, I think I’m on it. Now. I’ll make sure we link that correct one in the show notes for you. Last question, more broad. How do you feel about the landscape of web design? And just, you know, web partnership nowadays? Are you excited? Are you a little apprehensive about anything? Or what’s your general feeling?

Paul 57:38
I think it’s still, I think it’s still a fun place to be like, it’s a fun, I’ve always felt like, creating something out of nothing is the coolest thing in the world. That’s why I like making websites, I made courses, books. Like, it’s just the making static, I just like to make stuff. I’m not as good as making stuff with my hands as I am on the computer. So that’s what I focus on. So I still think that it’s awesome. I still think that being able to help somebody with their business by giving them a new website, or an updated website, or a better website.

Paul 58:13
It’s just like, helping people make money is, it’s cool to watch. And like, I’ve always been super, like, there’s a reason I still keep up with some of the clients that I worked with 15, 20 years ago. Because like, I feel like I have a I feel like I was part of that journey. Right? Like, I feel like I’d seen their success just makes me feel pretty awesome. So I don’t know, man, I’m still pretty excited about that. I still think it’s, I still think it’s amazing. I think the landscape has definitely changed from like, my dream weaver days and, and uploading files to like an FTP server. But like, it’s still, it’s still awesome. There’s still a bunch of complexity. And there’s still a bunch of things that are just fun to fun to watch people do. So.

Josh 58:56
And I meant to ask this earlier fathom, I mean, it obviously you can use any platform Webflow, WordPress, whatever. Do you guys track things differently for different platforms? Or does it software just, you know,

Paul 59:09
It’s on page, it’s one line of code that you add to your header? And it doesn’t matter what it is, yeah, we have a WordPress plug in. So you don’t even need to do that. You just add your site ID in the plugin but and then it works like that for Kirby and a bunch of other CMS is that I don’t even know all of the plugins that exist for fathom, because it’s kind of taken on a life of its own. Yeah, but yeah, we don’t care what software you use, what CMS you use, what framework you use next, next to all of that stuff, all this super nerdy stuff that I don’t even know how that works. It just works.

Paul 59:42
It’s one line of code, you just add it and it works and Fathom starts collecting pageviews instantly. And our dashboard is real time as well, which Google Analytics I think takes 24 to 48 hours. I have I don’t even mean to throw shade at Google Analytics. It just kind of like comes out into that’s really because they spent so much time in the Compare and contrast of, okay, this is how something works for the biggest player, how can we make it work better? So I, I unintentionally throw shade all the time,

Josh 1:00:11
I think it’s fine. And every every shady point you put out here is like, what can go on your website as like, here’s the issue with Google Analytics. Here’s the way we solved it, or here’s the difference. So yeah,

Paul 1:00:22
There’s agencies on our website, I think after we did the termageddon webinar with Hans, and Hans was like, you should make a what you should make a page on your site for agencies because they’ll have all similar questions. And then I looked through all of our support tickets were like, he was right. They all have similar questions. So then they made a page on Fathom for agencies and for agency owners and for folks who work with their own clients. Because they all have similar questions. And so I address them all. Yeah,

Josh 1:00:53
I’ll make sure we have that linked as well. I just found a website analytics for agencies. So yeah, well, we’ll put the demo video and the agency’s link in the show notes for you. Awesome. Yeah. Awesome. And again, everyone can check it out. Josh FATH lm n, then I do you guys, we haven’t talked about pricing or anything. I know. Everything is subject to change. But you guys have a seven day free trial as of right now. Right?

Paul 1:01:21
That’s not changing. Same with our $14 a month plan is the base plan that we have that’s not changing.

Josh 1:01:29

Paul 1:01:30
Yeah, we don’t we don’t want to. That’s another thing that’s kind of bugged me about other software products is like, I pay $9 a month and then it’s like, oh, we just went up to 24 Oh, it just so I

Josh 1:01:40
I know. And definitely $9 Is it Netflix up to like 18 now? Yeah.

Paul 1:01:44
Yeah, I never wanted to do that.

Josh 1:01:47
Yeah, I remember when it was 699.

Paul 1:01:51
Yeah, it was never that price in Canada. Not with our dollar.

Josh 1:01:54
Oh, really? That’s true. That’s true. Yeah, it’s probably Gosh, it’s brutal up there. Yeah. Man. Awesome, Paul. Dude, thank you so much for your time. Thanks for sharing where we’re at with everything I really enjoyed this this chat and getting a feel for you and what you’re up to with fathom. And I’m so old man. Here it is. This was a live case study of me moving from Google Analytics to fathom who knows maybe I’ll start doing some tutorials and and I’ll jump you on the on the on the YouTube. I’m sure you’d appreciate that. Friendly, calm. I look forward to that.

Paul 1:02:26
Thanks so much for having me on. I appreciate it. And then this is a great conversation. So thanks so much.

Josh 1:02:30
Awesome, man. Let’s do it again in the future. This is great, man. Thanks, Paul.


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