Is it just me or does it seem like website accessibility is an endless storm of conflicting facts and opinions?

It’s tough to figure out exactly what makes a website accessible, what the basics are and what you can do to make website accessibility an advanced feature that you can add to your suite of services.

So for the next couple of podcast episodes, we’re going to take a deep dive into accessibility to help you with just that.

And better yet, we’re going to hear from a couple folks who, while they share the same principles of “basic” accessibility, have different opinions on the advanced measures to help you decide what course of action YOU feel is best for your clients to help make their site accessible.

In this episode, Refael Glantz of accessiBe.com joins the show to share what their company has learned in helping make websites accessible from the basics.

Enjoy!

In this episode:

00:00 – Introduction
02:49 – Greeting to Rafi
06:32 – A personable opportunity
08:31 – Building accessiBe
10:28 – What is accessibility
11:56 – Adapting Alt text
13:00 – The SSL of today
15:41 – Disability mindset shift
18:13 – Legal repercussions
22:25 – Tiers of accessibility
26:03 – How it works
32:05 – An option for DIYers
34:00 – Best practices
35:19 – Reporting options
37:12 – Passion from the heart
38:43 – Extra abilities
42:21 – Deep level of accessibility
45:04 – Know the need
50:32 – What’s step one
55:38 – Hockey talk

If you’re interested in giving accessiBe a try, you can use my link at JOSHHALL.co/accessibe


Connect with Rafi:

Featured links mentioned:

Episode #213 Full Transcription

[00:00:00] Josh: And welcome in friends to episode 213. It’s great to have you here. In the next couple episodes. We are gonna dive into a very, very hot topic in web design. We’re gonna dive into website accessibility. And I don’t know how you personally feel about accessibility right now, but before we dive into these, I will share with you my honest thoughts about accessibility. I still struggle with who and what to believe when it comes to making websites successful.

[00:00:31] Josh: And I actually, I feel relieved because over the next couple conversations, we’re gonna be talking with people who are really, I would consider experts in the field of accessibility and they also have conflicting views on accessibility. So I think it’s overall, I think it’s a topic that is being worked out as we speak. There is no true or false or exact right or wrong way to go with accessibility.

[00:00:54] Josh: But my hope for you over the next couple episodes is that you’re gonna hear a couple different viewpoints on accessibility. And you’re gonna be able to figure out exactly what you wanna offer your clients and the steps that you can take to make sure the basics of accessibility are covered.

[00:01:08] Josh: The good news is this episode and the next episode, the common ground between the two is that there are a lot of commonalities between the basics and the foundation of accessibility. So with that in mind, in this episode, I’m so excited to welcome somebody from the company, accessiBe. This is Rafi Glantz who was an awesome, awesome person to talk to, uh, particularly when it comes to the meaning and the mission behind what accessibility is. And the reason for.

[00:01:35] Josh: I know for web designers, it can be so frustrating, but at the heart, accessibility is making the internet applicable and accessible for everybody, which is a very worthwhile venture for us as web designers to take seriously.

[00:01:47] Josh: So Rafi really had an interesting viewpoint on this, and if you’re not familiar with accessibility, it. I think it’s the top tool right now in the market for website overlays for accessibility. So accessibility gives people the option to adjust font, size colors, turn things off and on. I know that’s making a lot of you cringe.

[00:02:05] Josh: Um, that’s kind of the viewpoint of accessibility from an overlay standpoint on top of the basic foundations of, of accessibility. In the next episode, you’re actually gonna hear from somebody who doesn’t care for overlays and has a stance on that, but it’s really worthwhile, I think hearing two different viewpoints on a, on an issue and on a topic. And I think in this case, I hope it gives you some clarity on what accessibility is and how you can apply it to your websites for your clients.

[00:02:30] Josh: So without further ado here is Rafi from access. We’re about to have some fun. And I think in particular, I really enjoyed Rai’s heart for accessibility, why it exists and what the goal is moving forward. So I’m excited to hear what you think about this conversation as well. Here we go.

[00:02:49] Josh: Rafi, welcome to the podcast, man. Great to have you on, even though you’re a red wings fan, I wore my blue jacket shirt today. Not even knowing that, but it’s good to see you. Good to have you on.

[00:03:00] Rafi: Great to be here. Thanks so much. And we’ll try to only talk about hockey for like 25 or 30 minutes of this.

[00:03:07] Josh: Yes. Heads up there are definitely gonna be some hockey. Uh, definitely gonna be some hockey talk in this episode. No doubt. Uh, but yeah, let’s start there off, uh, maybe first off where you’re based out of, and then what’s your role with accessibility?

[00:03:21] Rafi: Sure. So I’m based out of right near Tel Aviv, Israel. I, it, the city’s called Petta Teva, but I doubt anybody will know. Um, I moved out of the big city recently and now have enough space to have a home office. I’m super excited. And I work as a, as partner success at excessive right now I run the team. I’m the team, captain, whatever you wanna take from that. But basically my job is to help agency partners and web designers and coders figure out how best to get customers interested in accessibility and get them to be accessible.

[00:03:56] Rafi: Because I think most of the people listening will know that your average e-commerce store owner is not a web expert. They are hopefully an expert in whatever they’re trying to sell online. And so we are trying to give agencies, developers, everybody, the tools that they need to make accessibility a prior.

[00:04:14] Josh: Well, um, that’s why I’m so glad to have you on it sounds like you’re a perfect fit to kind of share with us the ins and outs of accessibility and look at it maybe from a, you know, a surface level, but also maybe some stuff that’s a little more deep that we need to know. And look, I am known as a web design expert and I don’t even know much about accessibility.

[00:04:31] Josh: Like I’m trying to keep up with what’s going on. The industry of web design just moves so fast. So I, I think it’s why it’s really important to one reason I love having this show is to be able to pick the minds of people who are in it in, in one topic. So yeah, very, very excited to have you. And I have to ask you though, in Israel, how many hockey fans are around there? I mean, how’d you get into the red wings? Was that, uh, was that a previous life or what did that look.

[00:04:54] Rafi: Yeah, there’s, you know, there’s three, maybe even four other hockey fans in this country. Um, I’m not sure where they are, but when I find ’em, I’ll let you know, uh, no, there’s a pretty big expat community here. I’m originally from Detroit. So I was kind of just born into the red wings, uh, life. And I’m very happy about it.

[00:05:12] Rafi: We’re actually one of my most treasured birthday gifts for my parents was a Jersey with my last name on the back. So nice that that’s always gonna be, uh, you know, the, the nighttime outfit, but. I think. You have a really interesting mix here of cultures because people come over from all around the world. You have Mexican Jews and Canadians and Americans and, and people from Spain all over.

[00:05:36] Rafi: So the most exciting part of it is not so much the sports, uh, enthusiasm, but more the food, uh, everybody who comes, brings all of their food expertise. So there is no Israeli food. We’ve just stolen everybody else’s. Made them as little, tiny bit better.

[00:05:51] Josh: So it’s, it’s like New York across the pond. Like it’s just every other nation and country, all their food, you know, a melting pot of different foods.

[00:06:01] Rafi: Exactly. Uh, it’s great though, because it’s always super authentic. Like there’s a guy in the shook, uh, the, you know, open market. He, I ended up having a conversation with him. He only moved here from Mexico city a couple of years back with his family and in Mexico city, he was aro, he was, he was making tacos and here in Israel, he’s making tacos. So , we, we really just get the best.

[00:06:25] Josh: That’s awesome. How did you end up moving there? I’m just curious. Was that, did you travel or was it, yeah, what, what did that look like?

[00:06:32] Rafi: Uh, when I was 18, I really wanted to, you know, be a Navy seal and my mom was not thrilled about that. But my dad is a Jewish clergy person. He was a can now he’s a rabbi. And I knew that they couldn’t really object to me coming to Israel to do the army here. So that’s what I did. And then I ended up just staying here afterwards because as it turns out, college is not for everybody and it wasn’t for me.

[00:06:58] Rafi: In Israel, if you have good English and you’re relatively personable, which I like to think that I am, uh, you could get a job in high tech just by virtue of that without a degree. And so I kind of took advantage of that and didn’t want to have to go back to the states at, you know, 21, 22, then go to school for four years and then maybe get a job.

[00:07:17] Josh: Yeah, well, you’re in good company here, cuz that’s my mindset. I did not do well in traditional academia, which is why I’m so passionate and excited about web design because it is an industry where you 100% do not need higher education to do some awesome stuff.

[00:07:33] Josh: Um, so you, you are very welcomed with your, with your mindset and your, uh, your background here. So how did access, like how did you get, uh, LinkedIn with accessibility and, and into web design? Just to give us some context before we talk about accessibility,

[00:07:47] Rafi: For sure. Well, I’d been in high tech since I started working out of the army. I was doing, uh, FinTech stuff and got into the blockchain world. And from there I was realizing, oh, well, you know, JavaScript is just solidity. It’s not, which is the Ethereum coding language. It’s not different. And I started learning more about it and realized I really want to get into the sAS side of things and sort of understand software better.

[00:08:11] Rafi: And it was just a very serendipitous interview that I got offered. Um, I will share this as well. Uh, One of the companies that I had worked with and had friends in, in the blockchain world, uh, offered me sort of an interview. I went there, turns out it wasn’t a great fit. I was a little bit hurt that, that they didn’t hire me.

[00:08:31] Rafi: Uh, but you know, now I’m a grown up, so it’s okay. But, uh, it, you know, feelings. Turns out two weeks later, I have the interview with accessy. They hire me guess who are invest early investors in accessy the guys who didn’t hire me it was very serendipitous, but that that’s how I got to accessy. And then at that time we were a very, very small company. We had seven people total, including three founders. So it was not a big operation. Um, I’ve been with them for now.

[00:09:00] Josh: And when was that? When, when did that?

[00:09:02] Rafi: That was. About three years ago. Okay. So the company itself officially started four years ago. Um, but really didn. Come onto the scene and didn’t start selling in the us until three years ago.

[00:09:14] Josh: So like 2018 is when it was founded. Is that

[00:09:17] Rafi: Exactly. Yeah. And then in the years, since we’ve just been growing really, really quickly, we now have a New York office with 40 people in Israel office about a hundred. And we’re continuing to grow to really rapid pace because so many everybody needs accessibility, but they don’t know that they need it. So we just have to make sure people understand and then they’ll buy the.

[00:09:39] Josh: Yeah, well, it’s great. I think there’s a lot of great things about it. I mean, I, I think that the, the term accessibility is essentially in the name, which is awesome. Anytime your, your target issue or challenge can be in a, in a brand name is that’s a win because you Google it you’re gonna find that.

[00:09:54] Josh: I had noticed over the past year, like 2021 into 22, there, there was more and more and more chatter on all the interweb channels about accessibility and accessibility always came up. So it’s one reason I reached out and wanted to have you on to, to really chat about what you guys obviously provide.

[00:10:13] Josh: But just about accessibility in general, you kind of hit it. A lot of people don’t know that they need it. So let’s start there Offy, like what, I guess, what is accessibility for those who maybe brand new into web design? What, what is it? And then maybe we can talk about, you know, why we need it.

[00:10:28] Rafi: For sure. So accessibility is usability, right? Because for somebody like you or me who doesn’t have any disabilities, we can use the internet as it is right now. You know, you can move around a mouse and you can click things and you can type things, no problems, but. Accessibility means being accessible by all different types of people.

[00:10:50] Rafi: Some people don’t see, some people are colorblind, some people have seizure related disorders, so you need to be able to stop any animations on a page. I could talk about this for the next four hours because the guidelines for accessibility are the web content accessibility guidelines, the only internationally recognized set of guidelines for it.

[00:11:10] Rafi: It’s a thousand page long guidebook. It’s ridiculous. There’s so much that goes into being accessible. It’s not really possible for a single person to know everything that needs to be done. The best way to go about it is to give everybody the opportunity to customize your website to their needs. Um, and then that way you for you or me, we might not need to make any changes to use that website the right way.

[00:11:35] Rafi: But if somebody who is using a screen reader, which is a technology that people who are blind or severely dyslexic might use to read out the content on a screen to them, uh, audibly, they, a lot of times you don’t have adjustments for that to give you a, a very small example, you know, and probably most of your listeners know an image requires alt text, right?

[00:11:56] Rafi: But not, it’s not a bad thing, but 95% of people who are writing alt texts are doing it for SEO. They’re not doing it so that somebody will be able to understand what the image is, if they can’t see it. Yeah. And so a lot of times the SEO alt text you write is not so descriptive and more just keywords. So

[00:12:16] Josh: GT that’s definitely that’s, uh, guilt. I’m holding my hand up in pure guilt there. Yeah,

[00:12:22] Rafi: it’s, uh, it, it’s very common. And this is the thing that I have to talk about with partners all the time that like, look, man, you didn’t know about this a week ago. It’s really, uh, not necessarily your fault, but once you know about it, you have to do something because this is a very similar situation to SSL.

[00:12:42] Rafi: I don’t know if, if you are around 10 years ago, and that was really a thing. I was not in the industry back then. I was just coming outta high school, but I’ve talked to a lot of, uh, agency owners who were in the game at that point. And it was very similar. There were a lot of agencies that didn’t really know that you could have this, uh, secure website.

[00:13:00] Rafi: And there were a lot of customers who said, well, then nobody’s trying to hack me. I don’t need this. Why should I pay you an extra $30 a month? Right. Then Google starts getting involved and says, well, we’re not gonna list you if you’re not secure and we’re not gonna let people go to your pages. And that’s now what’s happening with accessibility.

[00:13:16] Rafi: So Google is starting to say, they’re gonna start ranking based on accessibility scores and things like that. And, and counting it more towards SEO. And that’s coming at the same time, uh, in 20 20, 20, 21, it’s at the same time as this sort of social movement, right? Where you have the, the BLM movement together with all of larger inclusion has tended to leave out people with disabilities.

[00:13:41] Rafi: We’re generally talking about, you know, equality for this race or this, uh, sexual orientation or whatever it may be. But, and that’s a great thing, but we’re leaving out people with disabilities. And so both of these things are coming together, Google starting to rank and the social movement. And I think that’s why we’re seeing so much more chatter about it now than before.

[00:14:03] Josh: Gotcha. Well, that makes a whole lot of sense. And it is kind of wild. I mean, I, I guess I would view accessibility as the new SSL. Maybe that’s a good title for this episode, cuz I got into web design in 2010 and so it was right before SSL certificates and security really started to kind of formulate and then become its own thing. So yeah, I, I saw a little earlier on and I definitely see similar. You know, murmurs and, and things that are going on now with accessibility.

[00:14:31] Josh: And so you make a good point. I mean, it’s really all about including the people who I guess, and it, it’s interesting because I don’t really have anyone in my life who has dealt with these type of things. So I don’t personally see it. Um, although my CEO of my web design agency, Eric, who was a student who eventually took over my web design business.

[00:14:52] Josh: He is legally blind. So he has a lot of, uh, he has some exper I probably should have brought him on with this too but he has a lot of, uh, he has a different take on accessibility because of his vision and stuff and, and the way he sees colors and different things like that. Uh, although he is a great designer for, for his eyesight difficulties.

[00:15:09] Josh: So shout to Eric, but so I say that to say, For me, I have to take like an intentional approach and perspective on this because I don’t see it day to day. Like I don’t have a family member who struggles with this. Do you think that’s another issue too, is a lot of people, particularly in tech and web design, we’re probably dealing with people who are used to being on screens.

[00:15:28] Josh: We’re used to the people we’re hanging around. We may not, we may not see the people who are having challenges with this because they’re just not in our circle or in our, our zone of, of people. Do you, do you think that’s kind of an issue that a lot of people. Or facing right now?

[00:15:41] Rafi: A hundred percent. Absolutely. Because I’ve never had a conversation with somebody about accessibility, where they said, you know what? I don’t like blind people. I don’t want them on my website. Right. I’ve never, never had that happen. I’ve had a couple of people make jokes where they have like a car dealership or a gun store.

[00:15:57] Rafi: And they’re like, I don’t know if we should be letting these people onto this website. And I’m, I, you know, you giggle a little bit and then you explain that it is the law. Nobody has any malice in their heart, towards people with disabilities. Nobody wants to exclude a potential customer, but it’s just not something that they deal with in their day to day life.

[00:16:15] Rafi: I will say though, there’s a lot of really positive reasons beyond the fact that there’s a legal obligation to do it. That there’s Nielsen data showing that the community of people with disabilities is by far the most likely to give you repeat business and referrals mm-hmm and depending on your industry, that’s how you get the absolute best business.

[00:16:35] Rafi: An example that, uh, on international data, people with disabilities a few months back, we had a bunch of speakers who had disabilities come to the office, and one woman happened to be blind, told us a quick story about she was out with 11 of her friends. So a 12 person group at a re. She asked for our brail menu so that she could, you know, read and make a choice.

[00:16:56] Rafi: They didn’t have one. And she says that the waitress was a little bit rude about it. So she and her 11 friends got up and went to a different restaurant, but she was very clear in saying, look, if they’d handled that differently, not only would we have made a big order and had a great time, we would’ve come back for.

[00:17:15] Rafi: And that’s at the end of the day, that’s the feeling that you want people to have about your website or your business in general. You want them to feel welcomed and included and you want to be able to do business with everybody.

[00:17:28] Josh: That’s great. So I want to get into some specifics on maybe from a you know, surface level, what we can do for basic accessibility and then maybe dive in deeper to that. I think it bears starting with though. Uh, you mentioned it’s the law. What are the legalities behind this? I was gonna talk about this later, but I I’m really just too curious about like the legalities. There’s a lot going on right now with privacy and Google and all sorts of different things. I actually recently switched over my analytics from Google analytics to fathom.

[00:17:56] Josh: Which is GDPR compliant analytics. So I would imagine accessibility is in the same type of, um, sphere as far as like the legalities. What does that look like? Like if my website isn’t accessible is the SWAT team gonna come and grab me? Like what, what what’s what’s that look like?

[00:18:13] Rafi: So the SWAT team is only if you get a warning and don’t do anything about it. No, but who boss. Not yet. Don’t worry. But the real penalties are. Reputational. So to go to go with the legal side for a second. You can absolutely be sued for not having an accessible website. You can get a demand letter for not having an accessible website and that can sometimes be even worse because you’re negotiating with a law firm that really just wants a settlement out of you.

[00:18:44] Rafi: They don’t want to take it to court because that costs them money. They really just want you to acknowledge fault. Pay them five grand and then go with some consultant that they recommend. And God knows what the relationship is between them and that consultant. Who’s gonna charge you 15, 20, $30,000 to make your website accessible.

[00:19:02] Rafi: Um, There were about 300,000 of those demand letters sent to US businesses last year. And about half of ’em were in New York, uh, the rest, mostly in Florida and, and California in, in particular, Southern California, the reason being in California, you have the unre act. So anybody Sue anybody for anything, even if they don’t like do business in California, which makes so much sense to me.

[00:19:28] Josh: Insert sarcasm.

[00:19:30] Rafi: exactly what you need to understand about the accessibility laws are, if you are not compliant with the w C a G guidelines, which we can talk more about a little bit later, um, you’re liable. What that liability means really depends on how you respond to any complaint. Because we have our litigation support protocol where it’s included in the cost of every license actually.

[00:19:51] Rafi: And we’ve helped more than 5,000 customers handle lawsuits without is. We’ve actually never had somebody successfully sued after installing the tool, because I mentioned there’s 300,000 demand letters sent, right? Most of them are sent by the same law firms. Okay. So they all know us by now. And you can think of having our icon on your website a lot, like having the ADT flag on your lawn, so gotcha.

[00:20:15] Rafi: You know, can’t deter everything, but the vast majority will be to give you a couple of easy numbers. If you end up taking this to court, your average settlement can be maybe 25 or $30,000. Um, so it, it is a significant risk, but I said at the beginning, it’s really a reputational risk. And that reputational risk is that as web designers or agencies, our clients rely on us to be the experts in what they need.

[00:20:40] Rafi: And if one. Get successfully sued because you didn’t do the right thing for their website. All of your other clients are likely to get hit as well. And it does, you know, it doesn’t look good. It’s not good for reputation. Yeah.

[00:20:54] Josh: Now from the perspective of a website owner, or even a website designer doing sites for clients, one question I would have is do, I would imagine more emphasis on accessibility would probably be taken if, you know, for sure people with disabilities are going to be looking at the site.

[00:21:13] Josh: Like I remember year, this was years ago, probably 2015 I did a site for this nonprofit that helped disabled folks get work and stuff. And looking back, I don’t even, again, accessibility really wasn’t talked about then. So if I were to do that now, then this would be 100% something that would be like the forefront of that build. With my brand. I don’t know. Because I’m teaching visual design, stuff like that. I don’t know how many people with disabilities are in my sphere.

[00:21:43] Josh: I’ve never been reached out. Who would somebody who said that, you know, Josh, I couldn’t read the text on your site, so I I’ve never had that problem. So my question would be, are there different levels of accessibility would, depending on who are like website audiences, do we take, you know, again, if we are working with a nonprofit, then with disabilities, of course that’s gonna have to be the forefront.

[00:22:05] Josh: Whereas if you have a brand that. Not catering towards people with disabilities or, or it’s not even something that is gonna be in that realm. Should we take it, you know, semi seriously, the could be the basics. You know what I mean? I guess the question is like, are there different levels of, of in depth, accessibility, depending on the brand and the company.

[00:22:25] Rafi: I, I get what you’re saying. And to some degree there is a little bit of give and take, but there’s a baseline level of accessibility that everybody needs to be at. Okay. Because if you’re not at that baseline level, it’s essentially discrimination. And at the end of the day, the office of civil rights is getting involved directly these days.

[00:22:42] Rafi: Mm. Um, there were a couple of cases recently where I think one was a Rite aid that they provided vaccine information online about COVID vaccines. The website wasn’t accessible. So the department of justice got involved directly and ordered them to spend at least $100,000 fixing that problem. Gotcha.

[00:23:02] Rafi: Even if you don’t think people with disabilities are necessarily gonna be using that website, it does need to be accessible. And I would add, you never know when somebody has one. I had a conversation with a agency the other day where, and obviously I won’t use his name. The owner of the agency and the main designer graphic designer happens to be colorblind.

[00:23:21] Rafi: And of course, he’s not telling any of his clients that he’s colorblind, which is why I’m not gonna share his name because they would discriminate. And a lot of people, I understand why they would have that instinct, but a lot of people don’t feel comfortable sharing, uh, or being super public about some invisible disabilities or partially visible disabilities they may have.

[00:23:43] Rafi: I would also all of us will experience disability at some point in our lives, whether it’s, oh my God, I was skiing and I broke both my legs. I’m gonna be in a wheelchair for a couple of months. Mm-hmm or it’s we’re aging into them at age 85 or 90. We don’t have the same site we used to. So everybody will have to deal with this at some point, not to be too morbid about it.

[00:24:04] Josh: No, no, that’s a good point. And I asked that question and you know, I, I don’t personally feel like that, but I, I, I would imagine a company is, is wondering if there are different levels of accessibility, I guess. So like from a basic level, basic accessibility. Is it fair to say that just good navigation, font and texts that you can read buttons that are clear, like are those basic forms of accessibility? Is that fair to say, just from a design perspective.

[00:24:32] Rafi: So you’ve got those, you also need to make sure that your color contrasts are reasonable. There’s nothing that’s too faint or too difficult to see. Um, Things should be intuitive. But like I said before, you know, the w C a G is a thousand page guidebook. So that’s why the widgets like ours are so popular these days with lower cost websites and websites in general, because a developer could spend hours and hours and hours and hours and hours doing this.

[00:25:04] Josh: I only, I’m not, I am sure as hell not reading that a thousand page.

[00:25:08] Rafi: Right. And by the way, do you wanna update the accessibility manually every time they had a blog post? I didn’t think so. So that’s why are

[00:25:16] Josh: you, are you familiar with aged RAI?

[00:25:19] Rafi: Yeah, they’re actually a partner of ours.

[00:25:20] Josh: Okay. I thought so. So I’ve had them on a couple times, Hans and Dakota. They’re some of my favorites in the industry. It’s just what you’re talking about reminds me so much of what tur again is doing in regards to privacy, to where it is a tool. And it’s what I recommend and what I use with an auto dating privacy policy.

[00:25:37] Josh: So you always have your, your ducks in a row and you’re covered. So let’s talk about accessibility and then maybe we’ll drill down further into some of the accessibility stuff, your tool. I mean, what is it? Let me just like, let’s say, I don’t know anything about it. Cause I’m looking at the website. I know a little bit about accessibility, but does it, what does it cover exactly? Does it, I guess open ended question, but what’s the, you know, the elevator pitch for excess on how that?

[00:26:03] Rafi: I would say, whatever disability you have excessively makes it possible for you to use a website. Mm-hmm whether that takes the form of screen reader, adjustments, or color contrast changes, freezing all the animations for people who might have seizure related disorders.

[00:26:19] Rafi: Anything you can think of accessibility wise, we can do it, but it’s not just that simple. It’s a session tool. So it’s never changing your source code permanently. What we’re doing is giving every user the ability to customize their session to their needs without impacting anybody else’s experience. And this is something that’s not just for someone with disabilities.

[00:26:40] Rafi: Think about your grandma, for instance. My grandmother before she passed away, absolutely loved online shopping. And I guarantee you if she’d had the ability to make the fonts a little bit bigger. Yeah. If she was able to make, you know, add a dark mode sometimes whatever it is, my inheritance would’ve been even smaller.

[00:26:58] Josh: and that’s yeah, that’s a good point. That’s I remember doing that. I remember doing that with my grandpa. Uh, he, he was California and then moved here in an older age and then we set his computer up and he was like, I can’t see the screen. So we just literally just bumped it up to like 130% across all of his browser and it, and he was fine. So, uh, that was like the, that was like the manual Jan version of accessibility before accessibility came.

[00:27:24] Rafi: Exactly. And so we’ve just made it like a lot simpler for agencies to implement that base level of accessibility. And I think that the widget represents the base level of accessibility you need, because it gives, regardless of what assistive technology you’re using or what disability you might have that gives you the basic level of interaction with the website.

[00:27:46] Josh: Gotcha.

[00:27:46] Rafi: There are some companies. Or some businesses, you know, maybe a hospital or a bank or a federal government website that have higher requirements for accessibility. Um, and we have a separate department that does all kinds of manual services, everything from consulting to user testing done by real people with real disabilities.

[00:28:05] Rafi: Um, but 98% of businesses are gonna be perfectly fine with the widget. Um, and they should also, you know, code with best practices. So we keep coming back to alt text. We have an AI that does optical character recognition and, um, image recognition. So it can look at pictures and write down a description in real time, which is great.

[00:28:26] Rafi: Gotcha. And it’s very, it’s very helpful that we have that, that being said, your images should already have alt text. You know, your headers, there should be one header, you know, one H one, one H two, right?

[00:28:37] Josh: Good SEO practices.

[00:28:38] Rafi: Yeah. Exactly. So best SEO practices are generally best accessibility practices, but our tool can automatically fill in the gaps where people aren’t always a hundred percent on.

[00:28:51] Josh: I see. I see. No, that’s a great explanation. That’s awesome. That definitely makes a lot of sense. And it makes me feel better, um, with considering using it, especially because like you said, it’s session based. So it’s, I think a lot of people, particularly in the web design realm are worried, have having a tool that is going to manipulate the code and actually blow up the design or change the site.

[00:29:10] Josh: Whereas this is session, it’s not actually into the source code, messy. Like if, if you turn this on, somebody changed it to dark mode. My site is not actually. Changing for everyone. It’s just for that browser, just for that session. It’s kind of like for anyone who doesn’t know, I, I view this, like when I’m tinkering around designing sites, if I use inspect element and change some of the, the CSS to make it look different, it’s not actually changing the website code.

[00:29:34] Josh: It’s just changing it on my browser. So is that just the, that’s the basic way of how accessibility works, right?

[00:29:40] Rafi: Yeah. And. That’s the conversation about usability, right? Yeah. Because some people out there in the ether on the interwebs will tell you that the only way to make a website accessible is to do manual coding a hundred percent of the way through. And it’s possible to make a website accessible that way.

[00:29:58] Rafi: But like we just talked about it’s really time consuming and really expensive. Having the right code in your source code doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re accessible. The real determining factor is can a person who has such and such disability use this website. And so whenever somebody has higher requirements, I always say, look, get the widget. And then get a user test every quarter or every year. And then this way, if anybody ever comes to you and complains, whether it’s a legal complaint or just a person with disabilities saying, Hey, I’m having trouble using it.

[00:30:32] Rafi: You can respond and say, oh, well, we’ve done the best we can. We, you know, we took the market leaders’ widget and we have this person test it regularly. What’s the issue. We’d love to resolve it. And by the way, because of the AI nature of our solution, if we find an issue we wanna fix it yesterday, because if that issue’s happening with you, it’s happening with the other 200,000 websites that use the product. Right. So we gotta fix that yesterday. Right?

[00:30:58] Josh: Gotcha. Now this is really interesting because there’s so in the web design world, now that everyone’s online, particularly after, uh, the pandemic stuff, anyone who wasn’t online with their business is definitely online now. Like there’s such a mix of companies like fortune 500, whatever. Like I’m looking at your, like, you know, some of the, the, the clients who use accessibility, you got Oreo, you got Fox, you got, um, you got Energizer, you got Pillsbury. Oh, that sounds kind of good. Right now.

[00:31:30] Josh: You got Doby, like all, you know, Johnson’s these major companies, but there’s also. Probably a much higher percentage of DIY sites where this isn’t even like, I mean, people are just trying to figure out how to make a nice site, let alone make sure it’s accessible. So what does this look like in the DIY realm? Like, are there, are any of these, uh, website builders or, uh, builder, like. Like GoDaddy as a builder that I know a lot of people use when they sign up with GoDaddy.

[00:31:56] Josh: Are any of these DIY solutions talking about this or is accessibility or excuse me, necessity. Is that just the option for DIY sites as well?

[00:32:05] Rafi: Well, we’re definitely an option for DIY sites, but the problem is that somebody like WordPress, for example, doesn’t want to take responsibility. For making all of the websites successful. Right.

[00:32:17] Josh: And I am a wordPress guy. I don’t know if you know this Rafi so WordPress Divi that’s that’s the theme I use. Those are my two main tools.

[00:32:24] Rafi: No. Okay. I love WordPress. Like personally, I had a blog finance at a glance. Uh, unfortunately the name was more clever than the article, so it didn’t really go anywhere. But I, I built a WordPress website once upon a time. Um, they’re and they’re great for all kinds of people. The problem is they can’t mandate accessibility across the board and they can’t control what you upload as well, so they could build best practices and they do in a lot of the structures that they come out with. It’s up to you at the end of the day, um,

[00:32:54] Rafi: having our tool, there is probably the best option for a DIY website builder, because you just can’t invest the level of time needed to become a web accessibility developer. Um, and. Generally speaking a website that’s built on WordPress relatively simply with somebody who’s doing it themselves. Doesn’t have egregious new functionalities.

[00:33:19] Rafi: It’s generally gonna be either a standard informational site or an eCommerce store or something like that. And our AI has. So much experience cuz you know how AI has learned. It has so much experience in so many sessions on those types of sites. That pretty much whatever you build, it’s gonna have no problem. Okay. Making that accessible that

[00:33:38] Josh: would you kind of answered as another question I had, which was what if a DIY just builds like a terrible site that is not even legible for somebody without disabilities, let alone somebody who has trouble seeing or whatever. So it, that can essentially, I imagine, I mean, I don’t know how much it could do with bad design, but at least at least would make it accessible. Is that, is that right?

[00:34:00] Rafi: Look, we’re not magicians, but but yes, but yeah. Yeah, we can make it accessible if it’s not accessible, but I always come back to best practices or best practices for a reason. You should have all texts on your images. You should put RA labels on links and logos and stuff. It’s just. It’s there for a reason we can supply them when they’re not there. But one of the things that we just came out with actually in particular for DIY folks is, uh, sort of a detailed reporting function.

[00:34:31] Rafi: Where of course, if you have, let’s say a hundred images, 90 have alt texts, 10 don’t. So if somebody comes onto your website and needs it, they’ll trigger the, the tool it’ll provide all text automatically. If you have the, uh, advanced reporting add on from us, you’ll actually get a report every month of the alt texts that we provide for those images so that you can update it manually if you so choose.

[00:34:56] Josh: Okay.

[00:34:56] Rafi: And then that way you’re always working towards the most successful website you can have.

[00:35:00] Josh: So that was one question I had too was you mentioned like this quarterly check in, but if like, is that something you guys offer in that reporting option? Because like, for myself, I don’t know. Who I would turn to, to, to check this out from a accessibility perspective every quarter. So is that something you guys are able to automate or have a tool for?

[00:35:19] Rafi: We have options for it. Yeah. We have an automated option to get more in depth reporting and to get better audits. We also have manual audit options and user testing by people with disabilities. Um, and we have really, really great engineers that can get on calls with developers and help them understand what they’ve been doing wrong or help them build out best practices for their agency, so that when they’re building websites in the future, They won’t have the same problems. At least they might have new problems, but not the same ones as before.

[00:35:49] Josh: Yeah. And I know one thing I was talking with Eric, my CEO about a while ago was the fact that like with, with my agency, what we’re doing is essentially adding accessibility as a, like, it’s kind of, it’s not an upsell. It’s not an add on, but it’s a benefit. It’s like a lot of agencies aren’t taking this seriously, but we are. And, uh, the fact that he does have some disabilities speaks to the, the type of work we’re doing now to make sure all of our sites are accessible as much as possible again, regardless of whether we think people with disabilities of any kind are on the site.

[00:36:19] Josh: So, um, it’s definite look, the thing, the thing about this is is it part of me as a web designer over over a decade now is I’ve seen the industry just get more and more complex. Which part of me is like, oh my gosh. I mean, I can barely keep up with it. Let my students are trying to keep up with as well.

[00:36:36] Josh: But what, what I always go back to is something that Hans from term again, told me, which is that a lot of this stuff while pain in the ass. Sometimes as a designer, it is good for humanity. Like more privacy, better accessibility to include more people who typically, you know, maybe in 2010, didn’t really have many options to, to view sites or to do stuff online.

[00:36:58] Josh: I, I think it’s really good is that like, I get the sense that you’re quite passionate about this, which is really good being that you work for accessibility, but like where is, where do you, are you passionate about this? Like, where’s your, it seems like you have a heart for, for accessibility as well.

[00:37:12] Rafi: yeah, I mean, pretty much everybody in Israel, especially those of us who, who did the military knows somebody who has a disability.

[00:37:20] Josh: Um, that’s a good point.

[00:37:20] Rafi: I have, you know, Not to get too personal, but I have, I have a buddy who, uh, ended up getting through like 17 deployments, unharmed, and then was training people to drive three wheelers at Fort, uh, something or other in the United States managed to flip his at 20 miles an hour, crush his entire hand.

[00:37:39] Rafi: And, oh, couldn’t use like the left side of his body for months and months and went through all these surgeries. He had to learn to use a computer differently. I know other people who have even more severe disabilities. It, it matters to me because it’s a, it’s an opportunity it’s, it’s so much more than just, uh, let people shop at your store.

[00:38:01] Rafi: For example. Um, I had a really interesting conversation with one of our, I guess, you’d call friends, Alicia Anderson. She was, she happens to be in a wheelchair, but she is, uh, a tech executive and she was actually hired for a VP level role in part, because of her dis. because the CEO who is hiring her said, well, Hey, I wanna hire you because you’re in a wheelchair because I know you have to be a good planner to get through your daily life.

[00:38:28] Rafi: I know that you’re gonna have to overcome a lot of obstacles that he doesn’t have to overcome and you, and I don’t have to overcome just to do daily things. So the challenges of being a VP she’s got it. No problem.

[00:38:42] Josh: Yeah. That’s good.

[00:38:43] Rafi: Not enough people see it that way. Like we are now entering an era of social awareness, whatever you wanna say about that, where we can see disabilities, not as disabilities, but as extra abilities that these people have yes. They might not be able to do things the same way as you arrive. But a lot of times you get interesting insights by the way that they find to do things. Yeah. And so we can all benefit.

[00:39:10] Josh: I love that quote, what you just said. It’s it’s not necessarily disability. It’s extra abilities, cuz I didn’t really think about it like that, but you’re right. Like I’m sure somebody could think like, oh, they just wanted some social credit points to hire somebody in a wheelchair. But the fact that he was like, if you. Every day, go through, you know, 10 times more things than the average person has to do just to do basic stuff. So this is gonna be a walk in the park likely.

[00:39:35] Josh: cuz that, that just goes back to, I, I think a lot of times for people who don’t have any hardships in life, They’re they’re often the weakest or they’re the ones who never follow through or never show up on time. Right. They it’s, it’s like the rich kid syndrome that, uh, you know, they’ve just been catered to the whole life where somebody who goes through it and has some sort of hardship, they are the, the toughest and they can, they’re the ones who, who get stuff done.

[00:39:56] Josh: So I love that. I, I really like, I think this is a really important. Um, like approach to, to think about and mindset when it comes to folks with disabilities. And I don’t know if you know this RAI, but, um, so I have two daughters, my oldest daughter, Bria she has some developmental disabilities. So this is, I guess, even though earlier I said, I don’t know anybody right now.

[00:40:16] Josh: She’s so young. She’s only four right now, but this is something I know is going to a conversation for her as we continue to, to work with, you know, where she’s at and, and, and all that stuff. So, um, it is relieving to me like she’s growing up in a world that there’s gonna be a lot more opportunities for her. We a lot is uncertain right now. We don’t, we don’t know what, what things are gonna look like, but.

[00:40:38] Josh: I know that there’s gonna be a lot more options because of, because of all this. So I say all that to say there is heart and humanity behind accessibility. It’s not just a like, oh, one more thing I need to do on my website. I just wanna make sure I hit that home.

[00:40:52] Rafi: Absolutely. And we have to do everything that we can to foster an environment with within tech and within our communities where we can see disability as extra ability, as different ways of doing things and build systems where people are gonna be included and have options to participate, that don’t necessarily look like what you and I need for participation. Um, and I’m seeing a lot of traction in that direction. So things are looking real good for your.

[00:41:21] Josh: No. That’s awesome. I’m really glad we talked about this, cuz I didn’t really anticipate getting into, you know, the heart of accessibility, but that’s why it’s here. It’s not, you know, it’s, it’s not here for any other reason than to help people who, you know, don’t have the, the, whether, whatever type of disability that a lot of us are fortunate that we just, we just don’t even think about., like, I don’t have a problem seeing words on a screen or typing or whatever it is.

[00:41:46] Josh: So yeah, that this is gosh, great stuff. I, I would love to focus on some, I think we’ve kind of scratched the surface on the surface level stuff, but deeper accessibility I don’t know if this would be the case for most DIY sites and my type of site brochure sites, most average websites, but what are some of the deeper levels of accessibility and what have you seen?

[00:42:08] Josh: I, I don’t know if this is just catered to big brands or certain industries, but what’s like deeper accessibility look like for anyone who might get into a situation that is working for like a medical office or something like.

[00:42:20] Rafi: for sure. So you can go as deep as you want to with accessibility as an example, um, let’s take video remediation, right? So a lot of people will put a 92nd intro video of their product on their website. Usually it’s not accessible because there’s no, uh, subtitles on the video, then people think, well, oh, YouTube provides automatic subtitles. Why don’t I just, I frame it in from there and problem solved.

[00:42:47] Rafi: On the surface level. And according to the double, a level of w C a G, which is the real minimum requirement, um, that’s okay. But if you wanted to go above and beyond and really be accessible, you wouldn’t just have subtitles. You would do what some modern governments do the Israeli government does it, the British government does it, you’d have a sign language translation right next.

[00:43:10] Rafi: So it’s, it’s about the degree that you’re willing to go to, to provide accessibility because the functionality of a site, it either is, or isn’t, you know, but the degree that you can go, you can always do more for accessibility, but there’s that baseline that you have to go to. So I, I think that’s a good example. I think there’s another example of, um, constant auditing.

[00:43:33] Rafi: So there are some people that will put the widget on a website and be done and say, okay, well we’ll let us know if there’s a problem. Somebody will Sue us if there’s a problem, which I think is a little bit too less fair, but whatever. Um, and then some people will say, well, what we really want to do. Is have our developers code things as excessively, as humanly possible.

[00:43:54] Rafi: So whenever we find something that the widget is having to do, that we could possibly put into the source code permanently, we’re gonna do that. And we’d love to have a review every 90 days or every however, however often, um, I think more than anything specific code wise, it’s about the attitude of the people who are making things accessible, uh, and how much they’re willing to invest in it.

[00:44:18] Rafi: Because not to go off in a totally different direction. So cut me off if you want to, but accessibility is an investment. The return on that investment depends on how you, how much you invest and, and how you talk about it because I mentioned earlier, the community of people with disabilities is very likely to bring you referrals and repeat business. And they are really enthusiastic when they come across an accessible experience because so few are, so few places are inclusive

[00:44:49] Josh: and I was just gonna say, this is for web designers, listen up, cuz this is probably what the conversation we’ll have with clients. They’re gonna be like, what? Why do, what is accessibility? I, I don’t understand. So yeah, please proceed. That’s I think this is what we’ll probably say to clients. Like it it’s an investment, but here are the benefits.

[00:45:04] Rafi: It’s an investment, but you can really stand out and it’s not to a small group of people. Most people don’t realize 20 according to the CDC. So given the last couple years with the CDC, you can believe their information or not. I, I choose to, but, uh, 26% of American adults live with the disability. 26%. That’s more than a quarter of Americans live with a disability. Now, not all of those people need a screen reader or are really gonna need to interact with your website in a different way.

[00:45:33] Rafi: But even if it’s 5%. Even if it was 5%, I know zero business owners that wouldn’t invest 50 bucks a month into 5% more customers. And I also use another example of, well, Hey, if you owned a physical jewelry store, right? And you have one of those security doors, that’s very strong, but not that wide. You see somebody outside in an oversized wheelchair, looking at diamonds and you can’t get inside.

[00:45:58] Rafi: What do you do? You lock the door and go have coffee. No, you run outside and you try to sell this guy a diamond. And that’s what we’re doing by making our websites accessible proactively. Yeah, we’re saying, let me go, let let’s not wait for the market to come to us. Let’s go to the market because this market is underserved and once you choose to be accessible to them and to welcome them in, they’re gonna keep coming back.

[00:46:22] Rafi: Yeah, because. Just as another example, right? I I’m so sorry. I forgot your CEO’s name. Uh, Chris?

[00:46:28] Josh: Eric

[00:46:28] Rafi: Eric,

[00:46:29] Josh: Eric. Yeah, Eric’s very close. Close enough. There’s a C in Eric,

[00:46:33] Rafi: super close together. but Eric, sorry, Eric. Don’t listen to this podcast. uh, so, but if Eric who happens to be, uh, legally blind is looking for a shoe store online and using a screen reader or something like that, he might have to go through different shoe stores on the Google search results before he finds one that’s successful. Gotcha. He’s never, he’s not going back to Google search next time. He’s just gonna bookmark this. You wanna be the website that gets bookmarked.

[00:47:01] Josh: That’s a great, that’s a really great point. And actually earlier, when you mentioned sign language, one of my students, I hope Nick’s listening to this cuz Nick, uh, he does sign language and uh, I have a web design community where I already coaching and stuff and he’s come on sometimes and done his sign language.

[00:47:16] Josh: And I told him like, that is such a cool thing to have on your site. And I would imagine for him, he could really stand out if he does sign language, alongside service videos or promos and, and maybe has a little, a different. Mindset or at least a more in depth knowledge of accessibility for a lot of his clients.

[00:47:32] Josh: So I, that, that is interesting from a, I hate to say it like this, but from a business perspective, if you, if you take accessibility seriously, you will stand apart from your competition because it, it does, it caters to a lot of people who may not be able to, to use other sites literally. Like they just, they can’t use other sites. So it’s a really interesting take on.

[00:47:54] Rafi: it’s just good business. Like aside from the fact that it’s the right thing to do, and you can get sued. If you don’t do it, we ha you, anybody who’s listening, whose site isn’t accessible yet. You’re not alone. You’re with 98% of the rest of the internet, but you have a chance now to be part of that 2% honestly, it’s, uh, coming from the blockchain world.

[00:48:14] Rafi: I can tell you. This is a very similar opportunity to somebody who’s getting into Bitcoin in 2014 or 2015, when nobody knows about it, it’s not being talked about and it’s less than a thousand dollars. And I guarantee you in a couple of years, it’s not gonna be a choice. Uh, customers are even starting to be aware of it now, people who are having websites built for them, they’re starting to ask, well, Hey, are you gonna make my website accessible?

[00:48:41] Rafi: Because, because of the huge number of lawsuits and, and demand letters, certain, uh, business associations have started sending out letters and warnings to their members. So I know a couple of big dental associations chiropractic. All of those are warning their members, Hey, be accessible.

[00:48:59] Rafi: And it’s something that you would think those communities would already be on top of because so many clients, uh, or patients, I guess you’d call them in the medical world they have disabilities. I had a hilarious conversation with somebody, an optometrist who sells prescription glasses and said, I don’t understand why my site should be accessible to people who can’t see.

[00:49:20] Rafi: And I you’re joking, right? Like what, yeah you sell glasses, man. so you wanna be the place that people bookmark. You wanna be the place that people come to because they wanna work with you. Um, and this is a really great way to build a community around your brand, uh, which is, is something that a lot of people are trying to do.

[00:49:42] Josh: So accessibility, the tool itself, it gives you the, the like little popup widget does that essentially just is, like you said, it’s kinda like the a D T kind of like heads up. We got a security system in place. Is that kind of essentially what it acts as like heads up this site is accessible, we’ve done, you know, we’re doing our due diligence.

[00:50:01] Josh: Um, I guess the question is for web designers specifically, I’m sure everyone’s wanting to know. Okay. This sounds great. I’m in I’m. I totally understand what now, like, and then what is, what is a couple questions with this? What does it initially? Is it just the popup widget that they have the options to control the accessibility options?

[00:50:21] Josh: And then my follow up question would be, are there, uh, is there an option for agencies and freelance? Who, who, who are again doing. You know, multiple sites and maybe dozens of websites for clients or hundreds.

[00:50:32] Rafi: Yeah, absolutely so initially when you install the widget on a website, it’s just gonna show you that little icon, because like we talked about everything’s session based, we’re not permanently changing your source code. That widget just gives every user who comes into your website, the option to customize it.

[00:50:48] Rafi: We do have an option for agencies and freelancers, web devs, whomever. Uh, anybody can join the partner program. There’s no minimums or requirements or anything like that. And you’ll get your own agency websites, license for excessive free of charge. And you’ll get a 20% commissioner discount on anything you bring us. So if you refer a client to us to buy their own license, you’ll get 20% back. Uh, generally that’s about a hundred bucks and gotcha.

[00:51:15] Rafi: If you end up. Reselling it to them because a lot of people will have a monthly maintenance package or something like that, that this is really easy to roll into uh, so you can buy from us in bulk, save a little bit of money and then charge your clients. Whatever you think is appropriate to be very transparent. I have some agency partners. That pay us, you know, $35 a month for their licenses. And they charge like $400 a month. Mm-hmm I don’t know how they get away with that, but they do. And some,

[00:51:42] Josh: we don’t do this. We don’t do that much, but we usually get at least nine or 10 or 20 bucks, depending. Like we do that with term again. And that’s one thing I tell all my students with term again. Now I’ll start doing it with accessibility is have this. In your plan and it is, again, it is, it is something that separates you and all your clients from everybody else.

[00:52:00] Josh: And yeah, it’s just, it’s, it’s a little extra, but it, all the benefits we’ve already talked about is what it covers. And then you can just make a little bit of an upsell on it each, each month doesn’t, you know, charge, whatever you want, whatever you feel is fair. But, um, I definitely. It’s something where if you’re gonna add this on all your sites, you do need to be compensated for it.

[00:52:20] Josh: Otherwise, yeah. A could spend 40 hours a week just tin around with accessibility stuff. So, uh, but the trick would be to help clients understand this, which hopefully basically this entire podcast, I’m hoping the timestamps and outline we put together. People will basically be able to use this as the framework to explain it to clients, cuz it’s exactly what we’ve done here.

[00:52:41] Josh: We’ve explained what accessibility is. Why it’s important, the humanity of it, why it helps? Uh, we talked about some basic principles with just good best practices, SEO, but then having a tool like accessibility or accessibility to assist with what you’re definitely not gonna want to do as a web designer.

[00:52:58] Josh: Uh and then some of the other stuff, like if you needed to go further and further, uh, with depending on the industry or the need for the site, so. Yeah, I feel like we’ve really, we’ve covered a lot. And of course I linked to the partner program. I am an affiliate with access B. So anyone who’s curious, you can go to Josh hall.co/access B, um, to, to check it out.

[00:53:19] Josh: Yeah. Awesome. This has been really great RAI. I appreciate your time and your, uh, enthusiasm and transparency with all this one final question for you. But before we go, any last words on, is there anything we haven’t covered, I guess, that you feel like maybe we should dive into while we have a few more.

[00:53:36] Rafi: I think I’ll just leave you with number one in the partner program. If anybody has questions or wants more information, we have two, uh, open demos a month. So I’ll do it. Or one of my colleagues will do it, give a full demonstration of how everything works and we’ll answer questions live. And we do a webinar once a month for partners only. We actually feature folks with disabilities and other agencies that work with us so that you can get the best tips and tricks from. And ask questions there as well.

[00:54:07] Josh: And that might be something I want to do with you RAI. I was gonna mention this after we could start recording, but, um, I know you had initially talked about having somebody on the show with disabilities as well, but just with them not being there with you, I’m just not currently set up to be able to have two different interviews, uh, with this. But that’s definitely something I would be interested in, uh, from my audience. Just having like a workshop to, to really explain this in more detail like that, that could be really cool.

[00:54:32] Rafi: Yeah, we’d love to. And the last thing is, I know the listeners probably don’t know right now if their website’s accessible or not. Um, if you don’t know, ,

[00:54:42] Josh: it’s probably that’s if your question it’s probably not.

[00:54:44] Rafi: Yeah. Right. If, if you’re asked that question, you’re not.

[00:54:47] Josh: I’m glad we didn’t do this live like this isn’t going out live because somebody could have sued me before I signed up for accessibility before we got done with this.

[00:54:56] Rafi: exactly. Well, if you have any, uh, uncertainty about it, just go to accessy.com/ace ACE, and you can scan any website you want. It’ll give you an accessibility report, totally free as many times as you need. Um, and if you have any questions, just let us.

[00:55:14] Josh: That’s cool. Okay. Let me pull this up real quick. And then we’ll link this in the show notes. So ACE. Okay, awesome. Uh, I’m gonna do that right now and then, yeah, let’s definitely, I’ll follow up with you about maybe doing a workshop for, for my audience. I think it would be super beneficial. Um, that would be super cool. My last question again thank you for your time. RA been great is for the, those who missed the last blue jackets and red wings game, do you happen to remember what happened there?

[00:55:38] Rafi: I can’t. Can’t recall, recall? I do not recall because as I , I am ashamed to say that I have been too depressed by the red Wing’s performance to be following them very closely. It seems like our goalie just, he’s not alive. I don’t know what’s going on. He can’t save anything. The last game I noticed, we lost like eight to two. And for those who don’t know hockey, that’s way too many points to lose by

[00:56:04] Josh: that’s pretty bad. Well, I was just kind of kidding. Uh, we did pull it out in OT, but, uh, I, I will say this, I think the red wings, like the blue jackets are, you know, retooling rebuilding a little bit, but I think we’re both gonna be pretty dangerous here in the next two to three years. So. Um, definitely some, some skill on the wings right now. So

[00:56:21] Rafi: we got some good rookies, like Dylan Larkin. He’s he’s got it. Yeah. And I awesome. That was like the dream, by the way, for those who don’t know, he, 18 years old got pulled right outta college to go play professional hockey,

[00:56:33] Josh: Michigan.

[00:56:34] Rafi: In Michigan, he he’s from Michigan and that’s like the dream of every kid that grows up in Michigan. I’m gonna play for the red wings one day and he did it at 18. Right. So good for you, Dylan larkin, if you’re listening. yeah.

[00:56:46] Josh: If Dylan Larkin is listening, hit me up, man. I would love to love to talk. Um, Did you, so growing up in Detroit, did, were you, so I’m in Columbus, Ohio blue jackets fan. So I, I’m not like a diehard Buckeyes guy. That’s the big rivalry is the Buckeyes against the Wolverines. But were you like, were you diehard Michigan hated Buckeyes or was hockey?

[00:57:06] Rafi: Oh, I hate Ohio state. Yeah, something like that. Uh, I it’s all cultural for me, cuz like I was a high school swimmer. I’m not really. Okay. Much into the team sports. Yeah. But you know, you get it by osmosis and, uh, you have to believe certain things to fit in certain places, but I really enjoy watching hockey and red wings are, are the team to watch.

[00:57:27] Josh: Yeah, love it, man. Well, I’m hoping we could do an outdoor game. I think the, the wings in the jackets yeah. For an outdoor game would be awesome whether it’s in the big house or at the shoe here in Columbus. So, uh, awesome. All right. Well, for anyone who’s not into hockey, they probably already checked out, but, uh, we’ll wrap this up. Ravi. Thanks so much for your time. This has been awesome. I learned a lot. So this was super beneficial and educational for me. I think a lot of folks are gonna be empowered.

[00:57:51] Josh: Hopefully not overwhelmed. I, I feel like we laid out a lot of good solutions and obviously I’m gonna fully back accessibility as, as a partner in mine and what I recommend for accessibility. So let’s do this, man. We we’ll talk after this about getting a workshop scheduled and we’ll go from.

[00:58:05] Rafi: Let’s make the world accessible.

[00:58:07] Josh: Love it. Well said what a great line to end. Thanks RAI.

[00:58:10] Rafi: Thank you.

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