If you feel like the words “confidence” and “sales” simply do not go hand in hand, I’ve got an exciting interview for you that’ll help.

In this podcast episode, acting and performance coach for entrepreneurs Tom O’Brien shares how to gain confidence and clarity in sales, calls, coming across like “you” on camera, in your marketing and more.

Sometimes I love talking with people from outside the industry of web design because they have a different perspective on things like performing and confidence when it comes to sales and getting over the fear of being on camera or showing up on any marketing channel you choose.

Let me know how this one helps you out by leaving a comment.

In this episode:

00:00 – Introduction
01:54 – Greeting to Tom
04:29 – What is performance
08:14 – In your own way
10:14 – An imaginary friend
13:25 – Overcome challenges
18:48 – Having confidence
20:28 – Belief into truth
23:12 – Tip before you speak
28:30 – Core desired wants
33:54 – Be in “Doing” mode
36:25 – Become a storyteller
38:57 – Mistakes
42:47 – Build a relationship
45:20 – Call yourself out
49:24 – Calming nerves
55:32 – Facial expressions
59:27 – Unshakeable confidence
1:03:53 – Re-learning in-person
1:08:27 – Quick tip

Coaching 1 on 1 with Tom


Connect with Tom:

Featured links mentioned:

Episode #242 Full Transcription

[00:00:00] Josh: hey friends, welcome into the show. This is episode 242. I’m excited about this one because we’re gonna dive into a topic that is a big time challenge for most all web designers.

[00:00:10] Josh: I had a lot of struggles and challenges with, uh, this topic of being confident and just doing well in any sort of sales situation, whether it is a sales meeting, a sales call, uh, whether it is coming across on camera or marketing myself and not putting up this fake version of myself. I wanted to bring on somebody who can dive into this with a different perspective, and this episode, my guest, Tom O’Brien, is gonna share how to better perform and how to be more confident, particularly in all forms of marketing and sales.

[00:00:43] Josh: And what’s interesting about Tom is he is actually an, an acting and performance coach. So what was interesting though is coming to find out he really does work with a lot of entrepreneurs and online business owners, so, I don’t want you to hear a performance and think that you need to act when you go into a sales call, because I actually encourage you to do the opposite.

[00:01:01] Josh: I want you to, or my encouragement for you is to be yourself, but there is a a lot of things you can do to help perform and help come across more confident and help just be the best version of you, particularly when you’re selling websites for thousands and thousands of dollars. So that’s exactly what I want to help you out with in this episode.

[00:01:19] Josh: Tom was awesome. I recommend going to check him out, uh, at tom O’Brien dot com at the end of this episode, and we’ll talk about some more of his resources that he’s got for you as well. But for right now, here’s Tom. Let’s talk about performance and confidence, particularly in sales situations for an online business owner. Ida Blast, I think you will too. Let’s dive in.

[00:01:47] Josh: Tom, welcome to the show, man. Finally, you and I have had weeks and weeks of, uh, technical issues or rescheduling mishaps, but bye, golly. We made it. I’m so glad to talk to you for a little while here, man. Hi,

[00:02:00] Tom: Josh. I’m so glad we managed to make this work. After a few, uh, steers to the left and the right, we’re here.

[00:02:06] Tom: So I’m so great to be here. I think

[00:02:08] Josh: it builds anticipation. I don’t know of anyone listening, if you like, if you have a meeting that gets delayed or rescheduled or there’s a technical issue when you’re logging in for any reason. It hopefully it builds anticipation for when the conversation does come, whether it’s a sales call or anything like that.

[00:02:23] Josh: And I told you before it went live. It’s interesting because you, I, what is your official title? I mean, your website says acting performance coaching, but you work with entrepreneurs, business owners. What do you that, that’s the question I was curious about. When people ask you what you do, what do you tell them?

[00:02:38] Tom: Uh, it’s, it is a great question because I am a hybrid. I’m not gonna even pretend I’m not. Uh, so yeah, I’m an acting and performance coach, and to dig a bit deeper into that, so I work with actors, entrepreneurs, leaders, business owners, and anyone who has to show up confidently and authentically and present themselves and essentially perform.

[00:03:03] Tom: Now, I think since the pandemic especially, and even leading up to that, there was a requirement or a sort of a need or an ask for people who aren’t, you know, actors and presenters, performers to have to start to show up on camera or speak publicly. I mean, public speaking is something that’s been a part of leaders and business owners lives for a long time.

[00:03:27] Tom: But the with, with the increasing content digitally and online, and especially on camera, Performance has expanded into most people, and even the people maybe who aren’t actually, you know, ha don’t have a business, but maybe have got a point of view from influencers to bloggers. You know, performance has become a part of our lives because I think there is a need and a want from people to connect with people.

[00:03:54] Tom: And that really comes under that umbrella of performance. And that’s what I really do, is I help people authentically and confidently perform, uh, as themselves, as their, as their best selves. So

[00:04:04] Josh: perfect segue, that’s literally what I wanted to ask you right up front is the idea of performance. I would never encourage people to come across fake. And what you said there is exactly, I imagine the, the approach is like, be you. But I guess what does performance mean while still being authentic? Is it just like a better version of yourself, more charismatic, more energetic? What is performance authenticity, I guess. Yeah,

[00:04:29] Tom: absolutely. I, so how, and this is obviously, this is how I see it, others may disagree, but performance is really that moment of sharing what you have with at least one other person.

[00:04:46] Tom: That’s how I see it. As, you know, if you, let’s think about actors who I, I, I’ve worked with, you know, I’ve worked as a theater director and as an acting coach for, well, 15 years, pretty much. And all of those actors have to perform. What are they doing? They are sharing or telling a story. And even if that is, they are playing a character, they are having to dig deep into a place inside themselves that is authentic and true to connect to that character.

[00:05:17] Tom: Otherwise, as you said, it’s gonna seem fake. It’s not gonna be believable. We’ve all watched. Lead a talk and not believed them. Yeah. I’m not talking about particularly leader, I’m just saying we can all think in our minds. Or sometimes maybe we’ve watched an actor and we’ve watched them on, on stage or or on film, and they’re like, oh, I just don’t quite believe them.

[00:05:37] Tom: What is it? And it’s that thing. They’re faking it and they’re not, they’re not tapped into something really true and connected that they believe. Right. So essentially that translates completely to anyone who has to present or talk on a meeting because they are having to bring something that is true from within them and share it truthfully.

[00:06:00] Tom: And like you said, if you are gonna perform in a way that feels not like how you, uh, talk usually, or maybe how you, uh, think you should be perceived, think you. Uh, talk, present yourself, you know, maybe even your voice. That’s something that you are kind of not confident with, you know, speaking out loud or articulating yourself.

[00:06:23] Tom: So then you sort of create a script for yourself that is disconnected from your voice. These are all ways of, you know, disconnecting from yourself and not being able to share who you actually are. And I think performance and getting confident at performing is getting confident at sharing and communicating your message in an authentic way. Is that, is that clear? I hope it, I hope it, hope it is clear. That

[00:06:48] Josh: is clear. Can you say that one more time, Tom? So, performance is connecting and communicating.

[00:06:55] Tom: And sharing your message in an authentic

[00:06:58] Josh: way. An authentic way. That’s good. That’s really good. Because, yeah, when you hear performance, if it’s in the context of like a sales call or a meeting or something, typically what I think of is the, I’m sure everyone can guess or has a picture in their mind of somebody who was like really soft spoken and themselves, but then as soon as there’s a sales situation, they’re like, all right, here’s what we’re gonna do.

[00:07:20] Josh: Say here’s, you know, like, I don’t know that accent’s around anymore, but you know what I mean? Somebody just goes into like sales mode and it’s like sweaty cars, salesmen, like, I don’t even trust this person. They’re so fake. It’s clearly, like you said, yeah, just fake and, and surfacey. So the idea of being authentic.

[00:07:37] Josh: but still performing at some sort of high level I, I think is great. And one thing that I’ve personally taken this to mean was like when I was so terrified of sales in the beginning. and so terrified of speaking in front of small groups, I was more worried about myself and what they thought of me rather than just how I can help them.

[00:07:56] Josh: And, and I guess once I like got outta my own way and just, but my services, my message was, was in the forefront, that’s what kind of helped me. So I know we could go a ton of ways with this, but like, what are some of the things that kind of help us get to that au authenticity, particularly if we are nervous or stressed or scared?

[00:08:14] Tom: I, I love this question. Uh, Josh, and I love what you just said about how when you were maybe getting in your own way, it was because you were think. Understandably, probably quite a lot about yourself and how you were selling and how you were communicating rather than the other person. And that’s my first massive like tip I always say to anybody who’s having to, whether is let’s look at sales for the moment, because that could be live or that could be on a video, couldn’t it?

[00:08:43] Tom: It could be different ways of basically talking about your offerings, talking about your services. And this is something I’m very good at doing for other people, but I had to learn to do for myself when I, you know, had to become more of a salesperson myself. Um, but what I would say is like, it’s really down to absolute focus and specificity on who you are talking to first.

[00:09:04] Tom: They need to be bigger. In your imagination and in your focus than yourself. Because then if they are bigger, and what I mean, I don’t just mean like literally bigger, I mean bigger in terms of your mind, in what you want to, um, tell them and share with them. That is gonna be the focus and already that shifts focus from you.

[00:09:25] Tom: I am selling, I am delivering to. This person would like, this person is interested, this person is curious. What are the, you know, if the focus can be on them, that’s really important. And actually, even if you are doing a video or a a, a, a, maybe a, an advertisement or something, a video, you know, you need to have that person, your ideal clients or customer in your mind.

[00:09:50] Tom: You have to know who they are. You have to have done imaginative work. We’ve all done that as a kid. We used to play in our rooms and have imaginary friends. It sounds very, um, sort of like cheesy and tweed, but it’s really true. You need to have that person in your mind. There’s lots of speaking talks about knowing your customer, but you need to go a bit further, I think, and create them in, in your mind.

[00:10:11] Tom: And also, yeah, before going onto a sales. Have the feeling of that per what, what, sorry. Have the feeling that you want to feel when communicating that person really present. So if you are, like, if it depends really on your business, but if your, your client, um, or the customer you know, is looking to do something where there’s a lot of money at stake, let’s say you want to get into maybe your mo your most professional mode and you wanna feel your most professional.

[00:10:37] Tom: So how do you do that? How do you cultivate an environment? Is that what you are wearing? Is it that what the kind of music you’re listening to before? Are you creating a bit of calm space? Or maybe you want that client to feel really relaxed because what you offer and your services is something that they need to feel relaxed and trusting and, and more like let, let’s say casual or, or, or, or less corporate.

[00:11:00] Tom: Then you need to get into that feeling before you start and. You know, cultivate that with yourself. So that’s maybe listening to some more relaxing music or making sure you’re wearing something comfortable. And then in your mind you can start to think about the person you are about to speak to and it’s gonna shift away from you onto them.

[00:11:18] Tom: I always use the you, me we approach, which is the, let’s start with you. So the clients I’m talking to, then I’ll share a little about me, and then we bring the we into it. And I think that can really help if you go, you, me, we, it feels like you are building a relationship. You are building a, um, collaboration with the person you’re talking to, and I think it gets you away from salesy.

[00:11:48] Tom: Slimy feelings because it is, comes from a genuine, uh, place of wanting to connect with that person.

[00:11:55] Josh: I love that. The, you, me, we approach is great. I haven’t heard a frame like that, but it makes a lot of sense, particularly in context of like a sales call or a sales meeting where if you start with me, they’re gonna tune out very quickly cuz the, like, they, they wanna focus on their problems and their struggles, but if you put the emphasis on them, come in with some, some solutions, I would say like probably a lesser percentage of me in that context.

[00:12:17] Josh: And mostly we, here’s how we’re gonna work together. I love that. It’s great. Something else you hit on too that thinks really important is, I’ve never thought about it like this, but I actually find it easier to sell something when you are like on a one-on-one call or you know the other person.

[00:12:34] Josh: because you can figure out what type of energy you want to have and what, without being inauthentic Of course. Yep. Whereas if you do like a promo video, or an ad or you’re on social media talking to multiple people, that’s harder sometimes because you just said it, Tom, you do have to like visualize the person on the other side of the screen even though they may be multiple people.

[00:12:55] Josh: So in the case of, for example, if I have a video on the homepage of my website that just shares about me and my services and how we help it is so important in order not to feel nervous to have like your ideal client right on the other side so you know exactly who you’re talking to and there’ll be outliers, but that seems to, to help in, in that regard.

[00:13:15] Josh: Is that kinda how you envision that, particularly when it comes to doing a video that’s gonna be to the masses or to a lot of different people, because that is like a different set of challenges in my mind.

[00:13:24] Tom: Absolutely. And, and you are so right. It’s so much easier when you know who that person is in front of you. But I, I absolutely think that if you have not got a two way. Opportunity, you know, a one-on-one, um, the way you’re gonna be getting energy back or you’re gonna get conversation back. It’s, it’s, uh, that maybe it’s a, a large talk you’ve got to do. Maybe it’s a TED talk, maybe it’s a video to YouTube or like you said, a promo video and advertisement.

[00:13:49] Tom: You have to just speak to your most ideal client. Now, this isn’t a lot of business leaders talk about this a lot, so I’ve kind of taken this idea of, okay, so if you, it’s all very well to say you need to imagine your ideal client, just speak to them. You know, if you’re only speaking to that one person, you are still gonna reach lots of other people who are gonna be drawn, but your message is gonna be clear and specifics.

[00:14:12] Tom: So I really agree with that. But the question is, how do we do that? How do we have them there? So there’s a couple of ways you can do that. And obviously if people who work one-to-one with me, we go really deep into this and, you know, get not just nail down the ideal client in who that person is, but like, How you bring them into your, uh, recording session or even bring them in your imagination into your, your public speaking space.

[00:14:37] Tom: But a, a good way of doing that is have a visual for them next to you. So like, for example, I don’t do this anymore cause I’m quite used to it now. I know who my ideal client is, but I used to have an image of one of my favorite clients right next to me on the screen. Uh, so next to the camera. So I just know who they are.

[00:14:56] Tom: Um, sometimes I might just have their pain points put in front of me as well. So I’ve just really, even though if I’ve, I’m off script or I’ve got a script, but I just know what, why they need me to speak to them and why this message has to get them. Because really what we are doing is when we’re, when we’re sharing ourself on camera or in a public speaking space, there’s there, there’s gonna be quite a few threats to confidence that could come in What.

[00:15:24] Tom: Are people gonna criticize me? Do they, do they, do they want to hear my message? Do they are, are, are other people saying it better than me? Are they saying it clearer than me? Are other people more drawn to me? I’m not a good speaker. I mean, we could go on the list of the, like, intrusive thoughts that come in.

[00:15:42] Tom: So we have to again, blow up and, uh, let’s say make bigger your ideal client. So, No one’s gonna know you’re doing it. Have a massive picture on them, of them in front of you cuz it’s gonna make you smile and it’s gonna make you just feel things. And that’s what we as an audience member or as a customer or a potential client connect to is energy.

[00:16:04] Tom: And even if it is a very corporate, maybe your business is very corporate, people still want warmth. People still want honesty and, and passion and all the things that are maybe an image can make you feel. So that I think can be a really good way of doing that. But I would definitely say focus on that one person because, and I teach storytelling a lot like the, the structures of storytelling.

[00:16:28] Tom: Cause I was a drama tur for years and created lots of new plays and I, I write myself and I always think right, be so specific in the story and the more people will come along on the ride because they’ll be drawn to that specificity. You know, think about all the shows, the TV shows we consume, like. If those TV shows tried to cater to everybody and thought, okay, I’ve gotta make it for every type of audience member in one show, then maybe it would be, the message would be confused.

[00:16:57] Tom: But if you make a show that’s maybe very specific to a community or a story that’s very to community, that community may be so different from mine. But I’m still drawn to it because there’s something in it. So I think we can be scared sometimes of getting really specific and nuanced because we don’t wanna cut other people out.

[00:17:16] Tom: But I. Get that ideal person, start there, and then you’re gonna feel so confident. And I think as you go along with your video recordings, promo videos, you’re then maybe gonna be able to loosen it up a little bit. But at the start, get really specific. Even if you need, have your ideal client on Zoom or you record, ask them, you know, whatever you need to do.

[00:17:34] Tom: Yeah.

[00:17:35] Josh: Um, I, I love the emphasis on one person. Even if you’re doing a video that’s gonna be seen by many, I’ve had to learn this over the years with doing YouTube videos and podcasts and stuff. It’s like, like this conversation, there’s gonna be thousands of people listening and downloading it, but, I also want it to feel like they’re in the room with us having a conversation.

[00:17:54] Josh: Just three of us, like, and podcasts are personal in that way. And even YouTube videos and, and in most ways are also personal and should be a little more like personal feeling, which I think that’s what’s cool. It’s, it’s a big takeaway I learned over the, the years of doing anything on camera is not to picture hundreds of eyeballs looking at you.

[00:18:12] Josh: No. Because that’s a guaranteed recipe for disaster. But that one person, that ideal client, yes, it’s gonna be seen by many. It’s going to, you’re gonna get the outliers. I I love that you focused on the one because you talked to one that’s gonna translate to many. You, you brought something at interesting up there, Tom, which was confidence.

[00:18:30] Josh: I wanted to make sure we hit on confidence. So I’m so glad you segued into that. Why? Like, what is I so many people who ask me how to get better on camera, it’s usually a confidence issue. So what have you seen are the common confidence challenges for anyone trying to get better on

[00:18:47] Tom: camera? Yeah. So, Confidence is everything.

[00:18:51] Tom: And I actually really, to some people, call myself a confidence coach, um, depending on the environment because essentially I think, yeah, you can’t perform without that confidence. And there is a myth that some people are just naturally more confident. Now, yes, there are some people who are naturally more confident, but I’ve, having worked with some of the top performers, especially in the UK as actors, there are actors you would probably know and recognize who I’ve either worked with or been around.

[00:19:21] Tom: Cause I mean, in the industry a long time, who are extremely under confident and they’ve had to develop that confidence. And the first thing I would say you need to look at it is what are your threats to your confidence? So if you can imagine yourself, and maybe if you are, people are listening back home right now.

[00:19:40] Tom: And, and, and think about this, like when you think of a time you felt the most confident in your life. Maybe it’s when you have closed the sale. Maybe it is when you’ve built a site, maybe where it’s you’ve, you’ve achieved something where you felt really confident. Like how did that feel in your body?

[00:19:58] Tom: What feelings came up and also what beliefs ab in that moment did you have about yourself? So whether it’s, I am, I’m good enough, or I am doing great, or I am fulfilled, or I’m whatever those nice strong words that come up at that time. Now that was a truth. It was a belief you had at that time, but it was a truth.

[00:20:24] Tom: The problem is, and there’s lots of neuroscientists who talked about this, about how, you know, the brain is wired to focus on the negative, the thing. Tends to come up most when I’m working one-to-one is most clients can only remember the, the, the negative moments or the moments where they felt under confident.

[00:20:43] Tom: They made a speech at school and they felt, you know, someone laughed at them or they were in the school play and someone laughed at them or they did a sales call and they, they lost it. And they really, you know, so then that belief becomes a truth about the way they do things. So, I am not a good public speaker, or I am not good on camera, or I am, um, I am weak as a performer.

[00:21:06] Tom: Whatever these, they will come up because you may have found a couple of instances just so I’ve turned that belief into a truth. So what I would wanna focus on is what is the. That is useful for you when speaking to camera and where in your life have you felt that belief to be true? As in I am good enough because you will.

[00:21:26] Tom: Because I do not believe you would have a business. You are a leader. You are doing what you’re doing. Or even in my session or listening to this, if you didn’t have a place of confidence, you can draw on. And that’s where we start. How do we remove the noise there and center the confidence piece that does exist in your mind and memories.

[00:21:47] Josh: and so practically, I would imagine, I didn’t really think about it like this, but you could just, like you have a somebody on your screen or somebody behind the camera that’s like your ideal avatar. You could, in the case of web designers, have a website pulled up that you knocked outta the park and you great project, like, have that up.

[00:22:04] Josh: Just get those feelings back before you dive into a sales call. Just remember, like, this project was awesome. I, I knocked it outta the park on this one. The client’s super happy. They’re getting results. Let me just take this in then boom, go to the sales call. It’s a great practical lesson there with like how to prime yourself without letting the negative.

[00:22:23] Josh: Intrude there, which, I mean, it is intentional. You do have to cut out the negative. And I, one thing I’ve learned personally over in this case is over the past year or so, I’ve been collecting testimonials, which I never used to do, and I’m creating a success stories page right now on my site that’s gonna be pretty in depth eventually here.

[00:22:40] Josh: But those things just remind myself, like no matter what negative comes through the door. No matter if in a rare case a student is unhappy or if someone leaves my membership or whatever it is, it’s like, I am doing good and I’m helping thousands of people and I’m keeping it like top of mind. So I don’t know, I just wanted to share a practical example of how this could apply, like priming yourself with positive, uh, positivity before a meeting.

[00:23:05] Josh: So like, do you have any other practical tips on that? Because I love what you said there, but I would love to hear your insight on it. Maybe Any other

[00:23:11] Tom: tips? Yeah, I’ve got a couple of more tips. I think what I was gonna say, what I think is what’s really important is, like you said, any stimulus for your confidence is what you’re talking about.

[00:23:20] Tom: And, and what I’m talking about is whether it’s an image, whether it’s like read your testimonial just before you go and do your video, have it there in front of you. It’s gonna stimulate a feeling of that, that belief that you need to be confident with. I am, I am good, I am a, I’m, I’m successful, I am a, an achiever, whatever those needs.

[00:23:40] Tom: So that’s absolutely having your stimulus. I would also say really think about going a bit deeper into why you do what you do. Uh, we’ve heard this from lots of people talk about the why is, is the most important thing, but I think it’s something that people don’t explore deep enough sometimes because maybe they just do what they do.

[00:24:05] Tom: Uh, so a practical way of doing that is going, okay, write down three reasons why you do what you do. And then under that, write three reasons why you are the best at what you do. Now, I can already hear people going, but I actually know another web designer who is actually, I think a little bit stronger that me.

[00:24:28] Tom: No, no, no. Why you the best at what you do? And it’s gonna force you to go. I think I am actually really good at this because I do this in a way that other people don’t, and getting all that and doing that as an exercise just before you speak and I’m on about, yes, you can do that, and I’m sure you do that when you are planning your copy and things like that, but doing that just before you speak again brings out the reasons.

[00:24:56] Tom: And it, and, and, and, and unlocks the reasons to start believing more in yourself. Because I don’t think, unless you are the most super confident person in, and I still have never really met anyone who is so confident they don’t have insecurities, um, that you need to dial back, focus back into it. And sometimes we just go onto a call or go on to record something with, yet we’ve got our message, but we haven’t really thought about ourselves and why we are the right person to be delivering that message.

[00:25:28] Tom: Now if in that exercise something comes up and you’re like, oh, I think I’m very good at this, that’s great. It’s a good self explan. Okay. Okay. I won’t mention that part, but it’s about finding out why you do what you do. So it’s a very practical writing exercise. And then another tip I would say is, Before you, and this is mainly for camera, and I think I said to you before, Josh, if I do have a, um, free camera training on my website to speak confidently, authentically, and there’s some tips in there that can really just get you in the zone.

[00:25:57] Tom: But I think the zone is the most important thing in terms of like, no one has to know what you’ve done before that sales call or recording, right? So, yeah. Yeah. What makes you feel the most confident? Is it dancing? Is it music? Is it talking to someone before? Is it, is it, who is the person who makes you feel the best in life or the most confident?

[00:26:21] Tom: Is it your partner? Is it your a sister, brother, family member, friend? If maybe if you are doing something quite big like a, a recording, a, a video for the first time, or you’ve got quite a big meeting or whatever, can you schedule in a moment to speak to them beforehand? Because that’s gonna ultimately, and you can say, look, I’ve got this thing, I’m.

[00:26:41] Tom: Really worried about it, and I’m feeling this. I just need to talk to someone. You know, you need to create the right environment to put yourself in the most confident place if you are not used to feeling confident as a speaker, a performer, and a

[00:26:55] Josh: communicator. That’s a, that’s a great point. I remember.

[00:27:00] Josh: unintentionally. I started applying this when I was really involved with a networking group, a local networking group. because I’ve learned about myself that I tend to draw my energy from other people. So if I sit alone and I’m writing or planning, that’s really good for me, but I’m not necessarily like my best self right afterwards.

[00:27:17] Josh: I’m not usually like super energetic and charismatic. It’s typically after an interview or after talking with people and being more like interactive that I’m like jazzed up. So I learn. Interestingly enough, that group used to be Friday mornings first thing in the morning. I would often do proposal videos in any video things right when I got home, cuz I was like primed.

[00:27:38] Josh: I was in my like state, no, on Monday morning when I cleared my schedule, when I would go to a coffee shop. I really enjoyed that time, but I wasn’t necessarily like in the best frame of mind to do a kick ass proposal or sales call. So that’s just what worked for me. I just share that to say like, With what you just said, Tom, I would recommend everybody figure out and be very self-aware, what gives you energy, what drains you and align your sales calls, proposal, videos, things like that around that, because that’s the time to do it when you’re, when you’re feeling jazzed up.

[00:28:11] Josh: And, uh, sorry, do you have any other thoughts on that? Cause I wanted to ask

[00:28:13] Tom: one thing. Yeah, no, absolutely. I, I just completely agree with you. I think it’s about we under, we underestimate or we forget how e external factors really can shake our internal world. And really what, what we’re I’m asking you is to bring your internal world and make it external.

[00:28:30] Tom: Right. That’s why I’m saying, which is that I am good at this, I can do this, and we’ve gotta go further. There’s so many different ways, and obviously if you work with me, we’d explore them. But another thing that I do get to do is work out what are your core desired, um, Wants and also your core generalized beliefs.

[00:28:50] Tom: So your desired wants, what do you want from this video? What do you actually really want? I want to, maybe it’s as simple as I want to communicate my message, or I wanna actually get specific about this particular thing I wanna talk about. I wanna make sure I’m clear they’re your desired wants. And then also your core generalized beliefs.

[00:29:09] Tom: The beliefs that you have about yourself, people, and life. And that can sound a little bit general, that’s why they’re called that. But our beliefs about ourself are beliefs about people and our beliefs about life on that day or week that you are having to show up most confidently are probably unconsciously weaving into your message in a way that we might not want.

[00:29:35] Tom: So we have to bring awareness to that. So I’ll get, um, clients to kind of not necessarily journal, but we will like, uh, I, I put it word vomiting where we play a game of like, okay, life is what today. Yeah. Let me just ask you, Josh, what is life today? If you had a few words, I’ll put you on the spot here, but what is life for you, for you today?

[00:29:53] Tom: life

[00:29:54] Josh: is what? Life is awesome, but a little, uh, exhausting just because of my, we had told you before it went live. My family’s sick. So I’m like, you know, it’s, I, if I were to do a sales call, I would probably have to be very intentional about being aware of all that because I feel rundown right now. So life is a little bit rundown right now.

[00:30:16] Tom: Just today. Just today. And that’s it. Remembering that it’s just today. So what we’d wanna do is we want to, we’d want to turn up that belief of awesome to shrink the belief of exhausted. Because if we are starting to think about, well, why am I exhausted? Why am I okay, here I am. So we need to say that we’re wanna leave that.

[00:30:33] Tom: Okay. What’s a useful belief to have? life is awesome. That’s true. Now, if you are writing all your beliefs down and they’re all really negative, low energy, it’s probably the day not to do it unless you have to. And then you’re gonna have to go, how do we flip a belief? Okay, what is the energy like, for example, anxiety.

[00:30:49] Tom: Like I, I am anxious if that was your belief about yourself. Like I am. I’m not saying it’s yours, but if it looks just hypothetically, it was Okay. What’s the feeling of anxiety? Tingly. Shaky. Okay. Could we trick ourselves into believing it’s excited? Can we do that? Yeah, I think we can actually. So how do we, and it’s, it sounds quite abstract, but actually just by words are so powerful, I don’t need to tell people in your.

[00:31:19] Tom: You know, your audience that you create, like websites that have words on them that are there to evoke and elicit emotion. It’s the same for ourselves. We need to look at what words are useful or what are the words, what is the, the beliefs about people, myself, I am or others that I need to have every single time I do a video.

[00:31:43] Josh: And then, yeah. That’s great. I love that. I love that. Yeah, because, and it does, like you said, it does depend day to day, depending on where our moods are and everything. But again, I, I’ve. One thing I’ve learned is typically you can, everyone can, can schedule their weeks around the activities that, again, fill them up or bring, like, you’re gonna have to do work that’s boring and you don’t enjoy sometimes.

[00:32:05] Josh: So like, do that on a day where you’re not gonna do a sales call right after. But there are those times, like me personally, today, I’m feeling sick. Little rundown, but I didn’t cancel this call, uh, number one cause I didn’t wanna reschedule on you again. But also similarly, like I just, I, I can say as a practical example, before this call, I looked at your website and I thought about. When I started and when I was struggling with the sales aspect of web design, what were my biggest challenges?

[00:32:32] Josh: And it was feeling confident it was getting on camera in the beginning. Those were the kind of things I brought to to, to my mind to, you know, get your insight on today. So I love that because if it is a situation where you got a sales meeting, you can’t miss it today, it is gonna be that intentional step to like put those words and phrases in front of you and, and get outta your own way again.

[00:32:53] Josh: That way, like maybe they don’t even need to know you’re sick, you just get outta your own way and make it about them. And I did wanna ask you too, Tom, you mentioned a little while ago that a lot of people just think there are really confident people. I’m sure you’ve learned. As most everyone’s learned, confidence typically comes by years, months, or a long time of stewing something.

[00:33:14] Josh: Um, a lot of people tend to ask. , how did you get so good on camera? Or how are you so good on camera? I wish I was as good as you. I’m like, look at my videos like five or six years ago. You’ll see. Very, very different Josh. Now I’m still me. I still show up authentically. I’m just a better version of myself on camera now than I was when I was nervous and again, picturing hundreds of eyeballs on the other side.

[00:33:36] Josh: So what are your thoughts on that with just helping people realize that it’s okay to be bad in the beginning. Like you gotta, you gotta work through it, right? I imagine it’s the same with acting, performance, entrepreneur, sales. You’re, you’re not gonna be great in the beginning and anything when you, when you start.

[00:33:52] Tom: I, well, first of all, and I think, I mean, I obviously watched a lot of your videos and I think you are so engaging on camera and Josh, so like, I’m like, I wanna. From you because I feel like you bring all of those things, which you, you elicit trust and I think you can only elicit trust in your audience if you are confident in your message and you, and the thing that is gonna help you, like you said, is doing.

[00:34:17] Tom: I loved it. You said, I’m saying being, doing mode constantly in everything we do. Be in doing mode. Yes. We know we have to process. Yes, we know how we have to plan, but if you can be in a doing mode when you actually need to really do, as I call it, I was like, when it’s, when it’s time to really do. Sales call a podcast, a Ted talk, a video to camera.

[00:34:41] Tom: You are gonna be so used to doing the thing. It’s not gonna feel as big. So I say it to actors, are you reading a play a week? Are you getting together? Are you in co, are you being coached? And that’s what I create a space for as a one-to-one coach with entrepreneurs is an opportunity for them to practice their doing.

[00:34:59] Tom: Uh, whether it’s, and you don’t just need a coach list. You can do this with other entrepreneurs, other friends. Maybe there’s a few people that you know you wanna get together, said, look, can we just practice our pitches together? Can we, or can we, um, have a conversation about what we do just to get used to it on Zoom?

[00:35:15] Tom: Cuz you know, I hate it being honest about it going, I don’t find this com comfortable. Right. And I think it’s about myth busting. I’m being honest about that lack of confidence and that you need the practice, right? That that’s something that you actually need. So to put yourself in doing mode, you can do that with a coach like me.

[00:35:32] Tom: You can do that with, uh, other entrepreneurs or you can do that on your own and just make videos for firms. Start enjoying it. Start using some of the, maybe the exercises I’ve given you here, or the thought of like, okay, I’m gonna do a set of 10 videos each exploring a different thing I wanna talk about just for me.

[00:35:50] Tom: And then by, there’s no way that you’ll have done 10 videos and where it feels slightly better, or you’ll be able to identify where you need help. And that’s where there’s a lot of resources, whether it’s from someone like myself or other people online. I mean, I also think, yeah, like storytelling is everything.

[00:36:07] Tom: And becoming a storyteller, I think can help you in all elements of life. So I want you to get more curious, you know, you, you’ll listen to it more curious about. Your own story, how you came to me, how you came to doing what you do, really tapping into your story and investing in what that is now, yes, it is making it about you a little bit, but you are going to start to feel more confident because you are gonna notice some patterns.

[00:36:40] Tom: You’re gonna notice some key moments, some key events that have led to you to where you are. You’re gonna notice moments where you could have gone in a different direction. I mean, I’ll be completely honest, there is a, when I go back to my story as a 15 year old, my life could be massively different. When I look back to that place and you kind of greatly thinking, well, how is that important for me, getting on camera and talking about how to create the best sales page, or how to design the best opt-in page.

[00:37:08] Tom: It’s about you and you are the person that needs to show up confidently. So go back into your story, not just, and find the times that you were most confident, but also how you came to be here. Because if you’re showing up as an entrepreneur or business person, there are things in your life that have happened to get you here.

[00:37:27] Tom: Being ex intentional and curious about that is gonna just help you feel more confident when talking about yourself, your business, and your message, because it all comes from you. And that is a really a way you can be in also doing mode, exploring your story, structuring

[00:37:44] Josh: it. And I love, I mean, the simplest thing, even if you, even if you do a quick reel, like every week now, like for this episode, I’ll do a little 62nd video or less that just says maybe a point that I remember from this conversation.

[00:37:59] Josh: Say, check out our episode with, with Tom O’Brien. One thing it’s interesting about that is a lot of people think I do those a one take. Sometimes I do, but more often than not, it’s like three or four takes. In fact, my mom of all people was like, uh, honey, I watch your, your story. I don’t, she probably doesn’t know what, what it’s called sometimes, but, uh, she’s like, I, you’re so well spoken.

[00:38:20] Josh: I can’t imagine doing that. Be fumbling all my words. And I was like, well, I do fumble all over my words the first like five times, but the sixth one, that was the one that I used. So that’s one thing that I think a lot of people need to remember too when it comes to confidence. Particularly if it’s pre-recorded, you need to make mistake.

[00:38:37] Josh: Yes. Do the, that was my next thing. Yeah. Make the, get all the bad out. And then take number five is the one. I mean, I, I know in acting, that’s the way it works. You know, not like movies don’t shoot and then expect the first take to be perfect. It never is. Every time it’s the same thing with. Yeah, do like if you do a proposal video and it sucks and you’re like, wow, that was terrible.

[00:38:53] Josh: Lemme redo it. But then suddenly, you know what to avoid. You can tighten it up. That’s the,

[00:38:57] Tom: that’s the deal. I would also just say, so I’d say creating environments to make mistakes are really important because the more you are used to as well making a mistake, the the sooner you are able to move on from that mistake and do a good take.

[00:39:09] Tom: So you need to do three really bad takes to get the fourth one. You actually have to, because you are holding back then so much that you are never gonna get that perfect day from you don’t go, I know that the first three are just gonna be really bad. Like saying that out loud can really help. So, and I would say when you are filming, I loved what you just said there that was so great about the idea that, you know, you’re gonna screw it up and then you have to gonna go back.

[00:39:33] Tom: I always say never watch a video back of yourself until you’ve done at least four takes. I think on my free training, I say five, but I think I start to think if four at least because. What happens is if you record yourself once and then you look back straight away, you are seeing all the mistakes, seeing perfect too soon.

[00:39:52] Tom: Get to the point where you need to at least refined your body. And this is something I would just say. It is all it is, okay? Especially when you’re starting out to have mistakes in your videos, to have ims, to have the occasional, but now if you are IMing and butting all the way through, No, but we are humans.

[00:40:15] Tom: We want to connect with humans. Like I don’t teach people how to be shiny on camera. I teach them how to be themself. Because what, especially in the online marketing world, there is so many video. I mean, you just scroll reels, reels, and people are in these amazing studios and everything’s really shiny and it looks really like professional and presented.

[00:40:34] Tom: And I’m not saying, and that’s okay, but that may not not be your style and that may, you may not feel comfortable. So I think it’s, yeah, about your environment, but also knowing that you need to be in an environment where you can make mistakes when you are recording. You know, sometimes people try and hire big studios to do their first videos and things, and I’m just like, that’s the pressure of that is just too much.

[00:40:56] Tom: You need to be in a place where you can make the statements. Yeah.

[00:40:58] Josh: Well, and I’m glad you mentioned the perfection thing because I, I, I often tell all of my students like, don’t be perfect. Like, We all know perfection is the enemy of progress in anything. So if you try to make a video at 100%, I’ve found, if you can get to 90, cool.

[00:41:17] Josh: Let’s go. Let’s roll. We got stuff to do. That’s, that’s my metric at least, is like, as long as it’s really good. Now there’s been some, there’s even been some podcast episodes I’ve done where I’m like, ah, that was at like 75. I, I could have done a little bit better, but you know, I had, I had to move on. But in most cases, 90% is, is generally what I shoot for, because if you try to get that extra perfect 10, I sometimes it can be unprofitable.

[00:41:41] Josh: I I in the case where like you don’t really need to do that. And then like you said, there’s a human ele element too. I mean, I think the good news now on online entrepreneurship especially, is people are not as attracted to perfect now. Like the suit corporate absolute perfection. Every mage cut out.

[00:42:00] Josh: There’s, you know, you sound like a robot that is not. Resonates with people, thank God now. And I don’t think it ever did. I think it was just like you were supposed to talk like that. I mean, when I started doing video for my business, I just dabbled into it doing. And what I did in the beginning was just to do a video, overviewing my services, and I aimed per for perfection.

[00:42:19] Josh: And I had all the lights and I had my basement, I had this white wall in my basement. I tried to make it perfect and I spent like two days on this. Whereas now I would just shoot at my office even if I didn’t have this stuff behind me and I would just have my computer and keep it chill, casual and you can edit out what you need to.

[00:42:33] Josh: But you know, don’t aim for that. Like absolute perfection. So I don’t know, I just wanted to say that because I think it’s a really, really important thing that people get hung up on is just aiming per, per for perfection. And then you never do. You never agree. I

[00:42:47] Tom: completely agree. And what is it? What is perfection? And also, so how I think of it is another way, and I, I love exactly how you explained there, but I always think if you are, everything is about building a relationship. That means there has to be space at the end of your message, your call for that person to come on board and join you in your message and that relationship.

[00:43:10] Tom: And if we have pre, pre presented something so complete and perfect and shiny, that it’s there, there’s no kind of like space for the person to come on board or to kind of interact with it. that’s how I see it. Because I’m always about, what’s helpful for me think I’m like, well, if I am trying for perfection, you are then pushing away the person because there’s no opportunity.

[00:43:34] Tom: But I love what you said about 90%, there’s, there’s a 10% window where that person can jump on board and go, oh, I can join you. There’s space for me. Does that make sense? Cuz I know like we sometimes all want a perfect product, but if I can’t see how I can interact with it, then. Well, then it’s, then, then, then where do I, it takes away from me.

[00:43:54] Tom: Right? Whereas if something gets presented Yeah. And perfect, or feeling like the person is reaching, trying to breach perfection, we’re taking it back onto the, the me rather than the you. And that’s why I think,

[00:44:06] Josh: yeah, and I think, I think in the case of services too, like web design, if you come across too polished and too above everyone you’re talking to, there’s a, there’s like an authenticity and trust that is lost there.

[00:44:23] Josh: But if you’re real, and it doesn’t mean again that you need to be fumbling everywhere and you need to use the first take. But. , you don’t have to be 100% perfect. And that does make you more relatable, I think particularly when it comes to services. And I even remember, oh gosh, this is such an important point.

[00:44:40] Josh: I remember feeling like when somebody asked me something and I didn’t know, I felt like I had to know, and I u I would never lie, but often I would just be like, yeah, we can figure that out. And what I’ve learned is to just be upfront about what you know and what you don’t know, and clients respect that.

[00:44:57] Josh: And it boosts confidence because you don’t need to know everything. And in web design you can’t know everything. It’s constantly evolving and changing. So like in the case of a sales call, if you don’t know something, I learned to just tell people I’m not sure on that. But I’ll look into it. If it’s not something we can handle, I’ll find somebody who might be a good fit. Simple things like that. I’ve helped, I’ve found help confidence like on camera and meetings and stuff like that. I love that. And

[00:45:20] Tom: I’m gonna take it even further. And this can be, I think if I’m honest, for people who are maybe. A bit, maybe either further along or they want to try really leaning into their authenticity. They’re like, okay, maybe you are, I’m quite good at speaking on camera. Or I feel okay speaking on camera. I feel quite confident, but I would like to be more authentic. How can you, I always like call it call yourself out. Now what I mean by this is being so honest that you call yourself out. So I think it can be a really powerful thing.

[00:45:55] Tom: I know, I, I don’t think, I know it can be a really powerful, because I’ve had feedback myself when I’ve done this from clients, um, to say what you actually don’t do, like fundamentally I don’t do this and I dunno how to do this, or I’m not the person who does this, or I am not the person who can do this. I almost think of it like you are sort of having a moment where you are put trying to put off the, the customer.

[00:46:23] Tom: Now there’ll be salespeople who think that’s a crazy thing to do and I’m like, cool, that’s fine. I have found it’s really good. Once you’ve done the you approach, you’ve really listened to your client, you’ve talked, and then in that smaller moment where it’s the the me bit where I need to say, well this is what I do and this is how I can do it.

[00:46:40] Tom: By saying I don’t do this actually helps. And there’s lots of research into this. Like because you are being so honest, that honesty of I don’t do this is gonna help that person actually see what you do more because they’re not listening to you do this, you do that. All these positive things have, you can help, which are great, which can sometimes be overwhelming or like, yeah, I do want this person’s services, but which do I go for?

[00:47:09] Tom: But then if you put in that, I don’t do that. It almost helps the other person really see what you actually do, because they may be questioning, I wonder if he does this or she does this, or they do that. Do, does that make sense? By just having one moment where you go, yeah, this is what I don’t do. It brings a humanity, it brings authenticity, it brings trust, and it elicits that, oh, I see that this person is a little bit different because they don’t do that.

[00:47:34] Tom: Now, I wouldn’t wanna focus on lots of the stuff you don’t do, because then otherwise that could be like, um, letting people off of authority. But I think that’s, I think it can be very powerful and I’ve seen it be very powerful, especially in speeches because it, like, it almost disarms the audience. It makes them go, oh, okay, they’re telling me what they don’t do and essentially that’s gonna grab their attention. And you, like I said, elicit trust.

[00:48:01] Josh: So something you said earlier is something that I found out, which is the feeling like the nervous feeling, the anxious feeling. And I was in a Toastmaster’s group for a little while, which was like a public speaking yes. Communication group. And they said the same thing and they were like, it’s okay to feel nervous.

[00:48:17] Josh: In fact, that’s good because you can translate that to excitement and charisma. That way you’re not like a boring, you know, like monotonous type of person talking in front of everybody. My question is, we talked a lot about on camera, which is a different beast than in person in a small group or public speaking.

[00:48:34] Josh: So I would love to pick some of your thoughts on, um, on public speaking. Like we talked about, you know, doing recording five takes and then use number five. But if you’re doing a presentation, you got one take. Now my recommendation is to practice that, whether you’re alone or with somebody, practice that presentation.

[00:48:52] Josh: it’ll be better the more you practice it. But what’s some of your advice on getting in front of multiple eyes when you do look at multiple people and you see literally multiple eyes on you? Cuz again, it’s a different beast. Um, I’m much more confident and comfortable on camera now than I still am probably in a group.

[00:49:10] Josh: It’s been a long time since I spoke to a group. So what are your tips on that? If I, okay, so I hired you, Tom, and I wanna get better at this event. I’m gonna speak out. What would your advice be to me? To, to just calm the nerves and be better in a, in a public type of

[00:49:24] Tom: situation. Great. Um, I can, so I’m gonna answer that in two ways. The first way is what we would, if we were working one-on-one, what we would do is we would start to. Break apart what may bring your nerves to a helpful place when it comes to this public speaking. So we’d go there, we’d face the fears. This is what it’s a little like. This is what I don’t do. What I, what I do will go, let’s confront what’s the worst that can happen?

[00:49:52] Tom: So I think this is something you can all do just on a, on a, on a, in a very, uh, simple way is like, what is the worst that can happen? What, what is your biggest fear? We’d get all your fears out. Then we would see how true they are. What are the likelihoods of those fears, you know, actually happening? Most of them will have gone because they’re, they’re just untruths, but maybe there’s, some of them are real.

[00:50:13] Tom: Uh, so what I would wanna do, I’d ask you, judge, like, why, why is speaking in public, so let me ask you now more scary for you, or bring you nerves in a way that speak on camera. Doesn’t what essentially is a difference.

[00:50:31] Josh: I think for me, always speaking transparently is there’s just something about multiple people watching me talk that makes me feel nervous compared to just one person.

[00:50:40] Josh: Okay. Or even a small group compared to, you know, like two or three people compared to 20 or so

[00:50:45] Tom: going back to your ideal clients or your ideal person that you want in that room. If you are in a room of six to 10 or 20 to 10,000 people that you don’t know, how useful is it having, these are all very different people with very different needs that I’m gonna have to try and make sure I can adjust and, and shift my messaging or talk to No, it’s just not gonna be helpful.

[00:51:11] Tom: And it goes back to the ideal client thing. So what I would have you do is I would have you, I would do an imaginative exercise with you. I would do, um, a breathing exercise with you where just before that you go onto the stage you are able to tap into so that basically you imagine the lots of your ideal clients in that room.

[00:51:34] Tom: Now, it may be those people, mm, who are actually there, or it may be we imagine that they’re there with you and you then speak to them. Now, if you know that those people aren’t your ideal clients, you know, so you actually are like, do you know what? I know those people and I can’t do that work. I can’t do that imaginative work because it’s people I already know.

[00:51:56] Tom: You then have to really think about, okay, what if you know the other people in the room, but you’re still nervous? Like, what is it that I offer that I know that they. Are gonna respond to. And that’s where the confidence, it’s being really specific and intentional about who is in that room. So if you don’t know them, you need to imagine that they’re your ideal clients and you need to cultivate that before you go in, just in the same way as you do with a, uh, a film, uh, sorry, uh, on camera.

[00:52:24] Tom: And if you do know them and you, they’re not quite your ideal client, but you still need to talk to them, you can just make sure that you’re shifting your messages or you can be curious, and I would write down this. I dare them. Not to get something from my speak, I dare them. So it becomes a challenge. It becomes a bit of a game because that then takes you out of like kind of fear and anxiety and into, oops, so sorry, I just actually knocked my camera.

[00:52:50] Tom: Um, yeah, see, um, oh, you’re good. It takes you into curiosity and play and excitement because you’re like, you know what? I know these six people and they’re tough cookies and I’m not sure if they’re gonna hit my message, but hey, I dare them not to. So you trick yourself That’s good into thinking that this is gonna be fun, but it’s, but what you are not doing is you’re not suppressing your nerves.

[00:53:11] Tom: You are using them. I would also say do something physical beforehand, like just before you go on stage, um, whether it’s just raising your arms, whether it’s shaking out, it’s so you are engaging your whole body. And, um, I sometimes even get people to do. Like literally a five second jog on the spot, because it will just mean that their whole body is activated and the nerves are all over the body rather than in one specific place.

[00:53:38] Tom: Yeah. And actually that’s what happens when our nerves get constricted into our throat or into our head. That’s when the nerves can be, um, really detrimental. We don’t wanna be

[00:53:49] Josh: suppressing them. That’s a great, that’s a great, literally physical aspect of that. I’ve done that before. I’ve actually taken it too far. Uh, I need to get back into doing pushups, but one time I did like too many pushups before a call and I was like, Hey, how’s

[00:54:04] Tom: it going?

[00:54:05] Josh: Ooh. All right. So, you know, like little too far. But that idea of literally physically adjusting your nerves and, and, and tweak, you know, tweaking your, your body to where like it’s not just in throw, and in your mind it’s your whole body’s involved. That’s such great advice because anyone, you could do it, it could be stretches, it could be a quick walk, it could be whatever. There’s so many ways you could literally just get your work flow, your body. It’s,

[00:54:29] Tom: it’s all, um, and, and does, does that help in terms of thinking? Just, I wanted to honor your, your question about does bringing the confidence from the camera to the, the people, when there’s multiple people, does that help you as, as an idea?

[00:54:47] Josh: Yeah, I th I think the idea of having like multiple of the same persona basically really helps. And I, I sure. This goes back to the old adage of like, when you speak to a group, just talk to one person.

[00:54:59] Josh: I know that’s common in any sort of public speaking is just pick one person and maybe they’re the perfect person and talk to them. But then I imagine too, you don’t wanna necess No, definitely not literally look at one person the entire time, but maybe just make eye contact with them and just keep it generalized everywhere else, I would imagine.

[00:55:15] Josh: Yeah,

[00:55:16] Tom: please. I would say you’ve just placed them, you, as you go into that room, you go, okay, there’s five people spread out. They’re my five ideal clients. Hmm. You can do it very quickly. Gotcha. You’re like, especially if you know you’re going to, it’s like, okay, or four. Okay, those four, okay, there’s four I’m gonna do.

[00:55:32] Tom: And it doesn’t mean you don’t take any other people, but they’re like your powerful like lighthouses there that are ready for your message, even if they’re not. And also what I would just say as well, um, do you investigate your beliefs around facial expressions as in like, just because someone isn’t sailing, just because someone isn’t.

[00:55:56] Tom: Uh, looking open and engaged doesn’t mean they aren’t. Find examples of people that you know, that have a resting face or a listening face that isn’t welcoming and go, oh, it’s just like that person. Does that make sense? We need to find the, the, the examples in our lives of people. Like my mum is someone I would say if she’s a very warm person, but she, when she listens or, cause I say she doesn’t say much and she gives, she’s quite a tough cookie, but I know I’m some, I can speak to her about anything.

[00:56:23] Tom: So I think finding examples of people who aren’t, you know, Josh, you are very open, very warm and ease to listen to, but I’ve, you know, I need to, I could be on this podcast and you could be extremely straight-faced and serious and look like you’re hating everything and I have to go. Maybe he’s just concentrating. Yeah. In fact, I have to believe that otherwise I can’t do this.

[00:56:46] Josh: That’s such a great point. I just had this conversation with the last guest I interviewed. I think her interview’s gonna be coming out after yours, but we talked about how women often have the resting bitch face, and then men either have the resting board face .

[00:56:59] Josh: or resting like mean face. But it doesn’t mean that a gal isn’t really interested or a guy is bored or something. It’s just literally, it’s like just natural facial expressions depending on who you are. So I love that because I have learned, number one to work on that, especially doing a video podcast because I do tend to kind of like my face kind of droops.

[00:57:18] Josh: And like you said, it’s not that I’m uninterested or bored, it’s just I’m concentrating and I’m thinking. But you can’t expect everyone to go through a training like that. Like I have some colleagues who are amazing. They’re like, they smile the whole time. When they’re, when they’re listening. And that is such a virtuous expression, like, that’s amazing.

[00:57:36] Josh: I wanna maybe send a personal note to people who do that. Just say, thank you for doing that. Most people don’t though, so what a great reminder in a public situation. Don’t look at everyone’s facial expressions, like they’re bored or mad or, uh, you know, like that’s not usually the case. It’s just arresting face.

[00:57:54] Josh: And what’s interesting too is on this idea of like feeling comfortable in groups, different types of groups, I so vividly remember the difference between speaking at a, in my networking group. I went to like another group and it was a bunch of different business owners from all over, and it was very different feeling.

[00:58:11] Josh: I was nervous because there were only probably a couple ideal clients. And then I spoke for a web design group and everyone was engaged, everyone was writing notes, and that filled me up. I, I, that presentation was so much easier because they were engaged and smiling and like they were going, oh, yep, mm-hmm.

[00:58:28] Josh: Whereas the other group is like the blank stares. But I love what you said there, Tom. My recommendation to myself and anyone in a group where it is a little more challenging is to just do that. Dare I dare them to not get one nugget of advice outta this. I love that because that’s the challenge and it’s like, well, maybe I can. You know, Brian back there who’s given me a scout actually smile with one game. It’s a game. Yeah. It’s

[00:58:53] Tom: fun then. And you’re like, you’re not mocking people. You’re just, you are the one who’s exposed and probably being a bit vulnerable. So whatever you need to do to get you through it. And there’s so many different ways.

[00:59:03] Tom: And, you know, I do like to work, I, I’ve actually got a group program that I’m l uh, launching in, in March. But I’m, I, I love working one-to-one with clients because I love to find out like what gets you. Fascinated, curious, excited about public speaking and it made things you’ve not explored so that you can yet use those tools for those intimidating moments, which are intimidating.

[00:59:27] Tom: I’ve, look, I’m an acting and performance coach who’s worked with actors When I started going into the entrepreneurial world, because I’d worked in, helped, you know, I’ve helped college lecturers do big speeches or I’d help people with their TED talks. And then I started to do that more. And you know, I now help people find what the core of their business is through storytelling like, but I’m from the acting and the world and you know, imposter syndrome and that come comes in, especially if it’s maybe more corporate.

[00:59:53] Tom: But I’ve had to kind of go, look, I’m, I am me, I am a. A unique person with my unique experiences, and it doesn’t mean I’m not ready to learn or can’t learn more and I’m constantly learning, especially in the business and entrepreneur space, but like they’re either gonna be me for me or not. Like, yeah. Oh, I, sorry.

[01:00:12] Tom: I’m either gonna be for them or not as well. Like Yeah, like so that just helps you go. Okay. I think the more work you can do on what makes Utic excited, confident, and also how you can navigate those challenges and do more of that means that you’re just gonna keep improving and building this unshakeable confidence, I call it, which will start to then ripple throughout everything, not just your public speaking, I think your messaging and why you do what you do.

[01:00:39] Tom: It’s, I, and this is just my point, everything is connected. Everything is about what we do, especially as an entrepreneur where we have to put so much work into it. So being really like, Having explored that and played with that and really owning that and embodying that. Really, essentially everything’s about embodying your message, embodying your confidence is gonna help other people trust you.

[01:01:04] Tom: And then the haters gonna hate the people with the misery for faces are gonna, they’re, or you can like, as you said, have a game. I’m this, this misery mic right at the back. Sorry. Any mic’s out there that’s just misery. Mic find a funny was saying, I’m gonna skew a shift there with, I’m gonna, if I can get a smile out of him, and if I don’t then well, well, this is my camera keeps falling over. Sorry. I’ve got a, that,

[01:01:28] Josh: that just how, that just shows how excited you are though, Tom. That’s the beauty. I want my guests to knock their cameras over. They’re so pump listen, you said, but

[01:01:35] Tom: yeah, that’s why I think because we’ve gotta get into that space of fun, curiosity, and exciting about public speaking. Otherwise it’s just gonna get too painful. Right. And it’s just gonna be too stressful, um, over time.

[01:01:48] Josh: Yeah. That’s so good, man. J Yeah. Make it fun and honestly like, Camera on if you’re, if you use your phone for social media, if you’re using your camera or webcam for like presentations, just make it fun. I do feel like, and, and maybe it’s different in the business world because we typically work on our business for web designers, we’re designing and things.

[01:02:07] Josh: Most web designers don’t become a web designer to be on camera. There’s wanna build websites, but then, If you’re gonna build websites, you gotta sell the websites, you gotta work with people. One of the best ways to work with people is to get on camera. So like, it, it does inevitably come into play, but it’s usually, you know, a couple layers back.

[01:02:23] Josh: But I do think that’s why sometimes, and it’s why this is probably my f the like the most passionate, fun topic I love diving into because I know the power of being on camera and I know how I started terrible and I feel like I’m much better now. Way a long ways to go, but I’m much better than I was. And it is just progress and momentum and, and just doing it over and over and over again.

[01:02:46] Josh: And I hope that is encouraging to everyone, that, again, you don’t need to be perfect on the first try. Just keep on doing it over and over because it does pay off and it does build trust like nothing else will do and it’ll help grow your business. The reality is it’s like do you wanna fill your bank account and live a life you love and have freedom or do you want.

[01:03:03] Josh: Keep on being overwhelmed by fear and anxiety, um, on doing the things that you know you should do. That’s kind of what I’ve realized too. It’s like the, the pros of, of the result of this need to start outweighing the, the fear. And I think everything we’ve talked about, building confidence, the practical things we talked about will, will help with that.

[01:03:20] Josh: Because again, I mean, I, I do feel like most everyone should be on camera at some point, or even if not on camera, just a screen recording. Um, because it’s a virtual world and you’re, you, you’re not gonna do near as many in-person things now as I did when I got started in 2010. Uh, they’re still gonna happen and they translate very well.

[01:03:42] Josh: But it’s funny, like I’ve kind of shifted now I’m more awkward in person than I am on camera, on a, on an interview. Whereas before I was much more awkward on camera than I was in person. So I’m sure I’m not the only one who

[01:03:53] Tom: does that. No, that, that’s really common actually. And I know some really big speakers. People who, like you would know in the entrepreneurial world who said, going back and public speaking, the last year has been a lot and they’ve had to work with coaches and, and really like, you know, make sure that they can actually do the things. Sorry, I had to move my camera back up because basically I’m full transparency.

[01:04:15] Tom: My, uh, my hold just is, is started to break on me. Oh, that’s, that’s, that’s pro progress, not perfection. Right. But, um, you know, we’ve had to go back and work on that eve because of this online world has expanded, but the in-person has shrunk. But now actually people are wanting to go in person again. So they’re having to find that.

[01:04:33] Tom: I would also just say as well, it’s like I’m fascinated by charisma and I wrote a piece on this recently cuz most people think, again, charisma what it, you know, those people you wanna engage with, wanna talk to make you feel great that they’re just things that people have naturally and well. Yes. Again, it is a, it is true, but what is.

[01:04:51] Tom: A charismatic person. What is a confident person? Usually it’s someone actually who doesn’t tell you how good they are. Everything. It’s someone who listens. It’s someone who really focuses on you, someone who is passionate, someone who’s a bit playful, someone who is able to say, to make a mistake, all of those.

[01:05:12] Tom: That’s really what charisma is, isn’t it? It’s not these people who are presenting a perfect version of themselves. It’s these people who are curious. Good listeners, a bit playful and have that sense of being really present. That’s charisma. And and I love that. Think everybody has got that within them.

[01:05:30] Tom: They just might need to draw that out and that’s gonna really help them with their videoing especially.

[01:05:35] Josh: And it charisma depends on the room you’re in too. I’ve found. It’s like I can be really charismatic in certain situations, in other situations. Like I remember uh, recently my neighborhood, there was a little hangout and they’re all talking about football, which I’m a hockey guy, I don’t really have too much to offer football.

[01:05:52] Josh: Like I didn’t have anything to offer and I probably didn’t look very charismatic cuz I just didn’t really have anything to say. And they weren’t exactly the. I wasn’t jiving with their vibe necessarily, so, uh, I didn’t really, I probably looked very uncharismatic, whereas in the different context, I’m super charismatic, ideally.

[01:06:07] Josh: So it does kind of depend too, and I think that’s okay. It’s like you don’t naturally need to always be on and always, you know, charismatic it, like, it, it just, I, I, I think in the case of sales calls and be on camera, you can just turn it up a little bit. Mm-hmm. and it happens naturally. If you’re excited about something and you really care and you really wanna help, it happens naturally.

[01:06:24] Josh: So I hope those are all confidence things. So, Tom, before your camera breaks on you, man, I would love to ask you one final question. Uh, but yeah. Where would you like people to go? You mentioned you’ve got a, uh, a free training on three steps to ensure, um, You prefer perform confidently and authentically on camera. So we’ll link that in the show notes for sure. Anything else or any, anywhere you’d like everyone

[01:06:46] Tom: to go? That’s, no, that’s great. I, um, so obviously I work with entrepreneurs and actors, so I try and tailor my messaging and my tips to both. But I, the, if people on Instagram, you can follow me at Tom O’Brien, coach.

[01:07:02] Tom: That’s where I, I, a lot of my videos, I’m actually just launching a new YouTube channel, which will be coming out really soon. And the details of that will be on my website. So that’s, um, awesome. Launching at the end of the month and I’m gonna be doing more. Um, I spoke longer videos than what’s on my. You know, Instagram, but, so follow me on Instagram.

[01:07:21] Tom: My YouTube is launching soon. I am currently working with one-on-one clients as well. So if you are interested or anything’s resonated, you know, from this, you know, you can just head over to my website. All my information’s on there. And also there is actually, uh, like a jo like you said, Josh, just, uh, a free training, a video training you can sign up for.

[01:07:43] Tom: And that will give you, uh, tips, three tips to help you on camera. And I also do a weekly newsletter of tips to help, things you can do to help elevate your confidence. And I’ll also be doing actually a free masterclass in February as well. So I’ve got quite a few different ways of interacting with my work.

[01:08:03] Tom: Um, but, uh, yeah, head to my website, tom hy obrien.com. Most of the, most of, most of all my stuff is on there.

[01:08:10] Josh: Awesome. We’ll have that all linked in the show notes. My final question is, for somebody who is still quite nervous about getting on camera, would you have like a quick tip to help with confidence?

[01:08:19] Josh: Is there like a quick confidence booster that would help? Maybe we’ve already covered one that we just need to bring up again. What, what would be just a quick confidence booster for somebody?

[01:08:27] Tom: So a quick one would be, okay, imagine so first I’ve got two things to say. If you are gonna go on camera and you’re going to say, talk about an offering, think about the person you’ve helped the most. Imagine the only way they could have found you was by one of your videos. So that may, may have not. That may, they may have come to you through a meeting or they come to you through a contact. Rob, what if the only way they could have found you through a video? Okay, now make that video and talk to them.

[01:09:00] Josh: Beautiful. That’s great. Great exercise for everyone. Tom, thank you so much, man, for your time. Super fun chat. I’m so glad we finally got to, uh, to do this. The stars aligned and we made this happen, so I really had a blast chatting about this. Man. It’s important. It’s so important, especially in a virtual world where the people who are comfortable on camera are at least doing.

[01:09:20] Josh: Camera stuff and getting on camera are separating themselves, themselves from the competition. So I, I love this. I think this will be super beneficial and we’ll have all the links you mentioned in the show notes. So yeah, man, thanks so much for coming on. I really enjoyed this.

[01:09:32] Tom: Thank you so much, Josh. Thanks for having me.

[01:09:35] Josh: All right, man. Talk soon. You too.

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