We’ve got a first for the podcast in this episode as we’re bringing on the first ever lawyer to the show but this guest is not just like every other lawyer…she’s a lawyer/web designer!
That’s right, Ann Koppuzha is the founder and lawyer behind powerhouse-legal.com and is also a web designer/digital strategist. So she has a very unique perspective on the legal side of web design which we get into in this episode.
We cover everything from:
What you need in your web design contract
Best practices for images, fonts and copyright laws
How much it costs (on average) to set up your business
Ideal tax setups and liability protection
The difference between attorney’s, advisors and tax professionals
And much more.
The best part is Ann’s approach to the legalities of a creative business. I thought I would feel overwhelmed and a little scared during this conversation but I left feeling legally warm and fuzzy, and I think you will too.
This conversation is great for those of you just starting out and for those who are more established and who might need to refine your contract, legal setup, etc.
Disclaimer: Ann is discussing legal topics on this podcast, but this isn’t considered legal advice and she’s not your lawyer until you sign a legal agreement with her.
In this episode:
00:00 – Introduction
03:52 – Greeting to Ann
05:09 – Being a unicorn
07:32 – Starting out
12:39 – Good rule to remember
15:41 – Contracts
23:51 – Two sections
29:50 – Business entities
34:58 – S.Corp or LLC
40:48 – Start-up expenses
42:13 – Established business
47:00 – Insurance
54:47 – Taking legal action
59:49 – Imitation flattery
1:07:43 – Trademark thoughts
1:09:57 – Finding Ann
1:12:59 – When to take it seriously
Connect with Ann:
Featured links mentioned:
Episode #254 Full Transcription
[00:00:00] Ann: You know, my, my rough estimate I would say to really take all this legal stuff seriously is when you’re making, like if I were to say if you’re making like a consistent income of $5,000 a month, you need to start thinking about all this legal stuff much more seriously. Um, and so for, I think for a lot of people that could be a year in, that could be two years in.
[00:00:19] Ann: Like, I don’t know exactly where that falls, but like those are general benchmarks to think about, um, of trying to think about whether you need to set up an L L C, whether you need to really look at your taxes, like, um, having a good trust and estates and wills plan in case anything happens. Like, you know, something to think about.
[00:00:40] Josh: Welcome to the Web Design Business podcast with your host, Josh Hall Hall, helping you build a web design business that gives you freedom and a lifestyle you love. Well, hello friend. Welcome to the show. In this episode of the Web Design Business podcast, we’re gonna be taking a deep dive into the legal side.
[00:00:58] Josh: Of web design and I actually have a first for the podcast, which is we are bringing for the first time ever a real life lawyer onto the podcast. And I don’t know what your experience has been, uh, in your life experience to this point with lawyers, but all I’ll say is my favorite movie of all time is Jurassic.
[00:01:20] Josh: And in the beginning of that movie, you might remember John Hammond says, I don’t typically care much for lawyers, do you? And if That’s certainly how I felt up until the point that I met Anne. Anne is incredible for a lot of reasons, but she is in short, A lawyer web designer, and I’ve never met somebody who has been in law and is a lawyer, but is also a creative and in the web design space.
[00:01:48] Josh: So, needless to say, to have her on the web design business podcast for this episode is an honor. And I’ve actually got to know Anne pretty well. She’s been a member of my web design community, web designer pro for a long time now. And as I’ve got to know her business, I just realized, my gosh, she is just a wealth of knowledge when it comes to the legal side of web design for things like contracts, copyrights, and a lot of that we’re gonna dive into in more detail, we’ll get into here, uh, the contracts that you need to have in place to protect both you and your clients with your working relationships.
[00:02:18] Josh: We will get further into, um, copyrights. We’ll, we, in this conversation, we really have a pretty wide ranging approach to all the legal side of web design, but we’ll get into a little bit of tax setups and make sure you’re protected. Um, so a lot of good stuff we cover here, but I think overall, I do not want this title to scare you.
[00:02:37] Josh: Because I actually left this conversation feeling very light and empowered and has a great approach to the legal side of web design, which is in short, just get your business going and the legal side will come into play as needed, as you, as your business grows, and as you need more protection and stuff like that.
[00:02:53] Josh: So I’m excited to hear what you think about this episode. Now you can connect with. At her website, powerhouse legal.com, and we do cover a lot of resources in this one. So I’m gonna recommend that you go to the show notes for this episode after you listen to firstname.lastname@example.org slash 2 54. And we’ll have all the resources that we mentioned here over, uh, in the post for this episode.
[00:03:16] Josh: And before I bring Ann on, I do need to issue an official disclaimer, which is this. Ann is discussing legal topics on this podcast, but this isn’t considered legal advice and she is not your lawyer until you sign a legal agreement with her. So there’s a disclaimer. We are talking legal stuff, but she is not l your lawyer until you hire her when you visit email@example.com.
[00:03:41] Josh: And for now, without further ado, here is Anne. Let’s talk the legal side of web design and let’s have some fun.
[00:03:47] Josh: Ann, it is so great to have you on the podcast officially. It’s funny cuz I was thinking about this. I dread talking about legal stuff. This is the kind of thing that just wears, wears me down in business. But I’m actually quite excited. This is the, so I said it to say, it’s the first time I’m excited to talk legal, so thank you for taking some
[00:04:12] Ann: time today.
[00:04:12] Ann: And that is what I want everyone I work with to walk away being like, I am not scared to call you. I don’t try calling you. I’d rather call you with a quick question, clarify it so you never have to call me for like a scary question.
[00:04:26] Josh: And I had that same experience with my cpa. She used to be in my networking group and she’s just awesome.
[00:04:32] Josh: She ma. And same with my financial advisor who is in my networking group, uh, subsequently as well. They are both just awesome people who simplify things and make things relatable and understandable. And I, I get that vibe from you as well. So I think your experience in, in law and in web design and, and legal stuff, I think is really gonna translate.
[00:04:52] Josh: I’m actually really curious, Ann, are you a. Are you a lawyer? I is. Is that in your title or were you previously a lawyer? Like did Oh yeah. No, and the question is, I’m a lawyer. You are a lawyer. Did you, are you a lawyer who does web design or were you a web designer who became a lawyer? Okay,
[00:05:09] Ann: so here’s what happened. Like I did all the legal stuff. I spent 10 years being a lawyer. I went to law school, I went to a top law school. I went to a top law firm. I worked for the Department of Justice. I did all of these things. And then I was like, something, it just wasn’t like, I was like, I’m not excited about work. And so I took some time off and I was like, okay, well what else could I do?
[00:05:29] Ann: It was like pandemic. I was like trying to figure out like what, how, what, what was my next move? And so I was like, okay, I just need to take a break and I have this idea that I wanna pursue. And then I started doing it and it’s been really, really fun. And I was like, oh man, I really like this. But then I kept being like, oh, there’s like, I’m not seeing a lot of good legal advice and this is kind of frustrating.
[00:05:49] Ann: And I was like, and then people kept, I was in Facebook groups and people kept. Asking me legal questions about fonts, and I was like, okay, I guess I can answer these font questions. Like, uh, and then I was like, oh, I wonder if there’s a market here for someone like me who like knows the law but also is really interested in design and supporting small businesses to be able to provide my expertise to this community that I’m like really interested in enthusiastic about. So that’s the, that’s
[00:06:15] Josh: how I, where am you’re, you are such a unicorn. Like, so I’ve been in this industry for nearly 14 years now, since I got into web in like late 2009. I have never met somebody who is in the web design side of things in the creative, like creative side of things and is also a lawyer generally.
[00:06:33] Josh: And you, the reason I say you’re a unicorn is I think maybe the way your mind works is probably unique in the sense of most lawyers. Can’t design for shit basically. You know what I, yeah. And I’m sure you’ve seen that in, in your industry and most creatives really struggle with the numbers and the books and my gosh, the law stuff and legal stuff.
[00:06:53] Josh: I ha I don’t even, I didn’t know where to start. So, yeah. Yeah. I think, I think maybe a great place to start. Uh, I love that you laid the context there cuz we know you are in web design and you love the industry. I’ve seen you come a long way even since you’ve been a part of Web Designer Pro. Yeah. Um, but your background in law is fascinating.
[00:07:11] Josh: Like, I, I guess one of the, the, the initial questions I have is like, if somebody is going to start a business, cuz it, we’re probably gonna talk to people who are starting a business and then who have a business and need to shore some things up. But what are, what’s the basics? Like, what are the things that we need to do to cover our butts basically when we.
[00:07:31] Ann: Well, you’re super in luck, uh, you don’t need much. Um, uh, being a web designer, I think it’s a pretty low risk business and therefore you don’t have a lot of like upfront legal investments. So it should be pretty simple and should be pretty cheap to get started. Um, you the number one thing, okay, so there’s sort of two things I want everyone in this audience to understand to take away.
[00:07:53] Ann: Um, one is have a good contract in place. I can’t emphasize that enough. Um, both for your own project management, just to be like, this is exactly what I’m providing. This is what you’re providing, this is what I’m not providing. This is the deadlines, this is how much you’re paying, this is how we’re doing payment.
[00:08:08] Ann: Like, all of those details to get ironed out and second, to protect you in case anything goes wrong. So definitely, definitely have a contract in place. And the second thing I want everyone to know is to understand copyright laws, how important that is to being a web designer and making sure you don’t get sued and your client get, doesn’t get sued.
[00:08:25] Josh: So let’s start with the copyright laws, cuz I’m not quite sure what that entails. Does that entail like images, like, uh, Sam and what was our approach? Just asked this last night. Cuz you posted in there asking for if anyone had questions. Uh, and I think separately he had mentioned that uh, he’s one of our new members who said, He, he has a client worried about being sued for images.
[00:08:44] Josh: Um, so is that in the bucket? Like that kind of thing? In the bucket of copyright? Yeah,
[00:08:49] Ann: exactly. What I mean by copyright is don’t use any images that you don’t have authority to use. So I think in that instance that he was talking about, um, having model releases, so using pictures of customers, but without having them sign releases.
[00:09:02] Ann: And that’s a big nono. Like definitely, definitely have them sign release. If you’re gonna take pictures of, of customers and have them on your website, make sure they sign off and be included in your marketing materials. Um, and then, then it comes down to like, okay, are you, like I, I saw this example of someone online saying that they, they were building a website template to sell, um, and they wanted to use a picture from Glossier.
[00:09:23] Ann: In the template. And I, and that scared the crap out of me because I’m like, Callier is a major company. I’m pretty sure that everything that they do is copyrighted and trademarked and like using an image, uh, from theirs on your website without their, uh, permission is a classic example. Copyright infringement.
[00:09:39] Ann: Um, and so that’s the kind of thing that I want everyone to like be bureau of, do not use images that you don’t have the right to use and do, or not, not just images, but like fonts for example. That’s like another thing that people like, don’t just download a font online, like make sure you have the license to use it, because if you don’t, you could be sued for copyright infringement.
[00:09:58] Josh: And now like themes like divvy that have, uh, hundreds of fonts in them, those are all vetted, right? Like if a theme builder is going to put them in their system, I would imagine as the user we’re covered, just cuz the company’s already done the work of making sure it’s something that can be shared for
[00:10:14] Ann: everybody.
[00:10:14] Ann: Totally. That’s, that is a great point. In, in those kind of instances, the company’s already done all the legal work for you. You don’t need to do anything in those instances. I’m talking about people like, who wanna, like, they wanna use a specific bond that’s not in the builder and then they wanna download it from the internet, import into Canva and things like that.
[00:10:32] Ann: Don’t do things like
[00:10:32] Josh: that. And well, and the images I think are, are the big thing. Like I, I never had any legal trouble, although I will, I don’t know if I want to admit this publicly cuz this is not resolved, but I’m going to, we’ll see what happens. Uh, my band’s third album, I just took an image off of Google and thought it was cool cuz I had just started doing design.
[00:10:53] Josh: This was back in 2009. Yeah. And I was like, Ooh, this image is cool. And I used that for the cover artwork. Yeah. I, that I did not purchase that. It wasn’t a commercial license, I just found its, I don’t even know where I got it from. And then years later I realized like, oh, I probably shouldn’t have done that cuz we sold the album.
[00:11:09] Josh: So hopefully that’s water under the bridge at this point. But I, I guess that’s a good example of when you’re ignorant to these type of things, they can come with a potential lawsuit. And I actually, what’s funny, at that same time I was, uh, this shows you how like ignorant I was to the, the legal aspects of things.
[00:11:28] Josh: Literally, I think that same year I was doing some work for the church I was helping out with and I did some video work and I took some music that I had in my library and just put it on these, uh, it was like instrumental music that I had purchased and I put it on this video for church that we had on, uh, Vimeo.
[00:11:43] Josh: And it wasn’t that long later that somebody in there, the band. Label or organization contacted the church and requested that they come down immediately, or lawsuits would, would, uh, would be coming next. And it turns out like a ton of churches were using that instrumental music just cuz it was, it was really good. So anyway, just a couple examples of how ignorance classic
[00:12:04] Ann: comes into play. Classic example and Josh. Yeah. I wouldn’t, you know, don’t blame yourself, like, things like that happen. It happens to everyone. And honestly, if you’re not a lawyer, how would you know that? Right? That’s, it’s not exactly common knowledge, I think. And so, which is why I’m here. I’m here. Tell everyone, uh, to make sure to prevent yourself from getting into these types of situations.
[00:12:21] Josh: So what would the rule of thumb be, regardless of whether it’s images, fonts, music? Would it just be if you purchase, if you create it, you’re good because you own the ip, the intellectual property. Yeah. Or to make sure if, if you use it, you purchase it from somewhere and purchase a commercial license that says it can be shared. Is that kind of the rule of thumb?
[00:12:39] Ann: Exactly. Yeah. I mean there are a lot of, like, you know, there are a lot of stock photo libraries like Unsplash where you can use images and stuff like that. Like that’s fine. Like as long as you can use it. Just, you just have to read the fine print that says like, this is, you can use this for commercial licenses and there are stock photography clubs that you can join, but like you have to pay in order to get the copyright.
[00:12:59] Josh: Yeah. Yeah. I’m, I’m a little shocked at how Unsplash and Pexels is one of my favorite P E X E L S. Um, those are two of my favorites. I’m a little shocked at like, I don’t know if it’s a business model. I don’t know how that works exactly.
[00:13:11] Ann: Well it’s a freemium business model, right? Like, uh, Unsplash I know has a bunch of free content you can use, um, but they have also have paid stuff, and their upgrade stuff is quite frankly, pretty expensive.
[00:13:22] Ann: It’s like $10 a photo, where I think a lot of like stock photo memberships are like $30 for unlimited photos for a month. So like, yeah, if you wanna download a photo, like it’s, you know, $10 is not that big of a deal, but you don’t need just one photo for a website. You need like dozens. And so if you were downloading dozens, it quickly adds up. So yeah, it depends on what you’re going for.
[00:13:42] Josh: Yeah. You just gave me a flashback and, and this actually is one reason in my contract, which perfect segue to, to talk about contracts is I stated we could do up to, I think I have up to 10 stock images because I just had a monthly unlimited license to, I think it was iStock at that point.
[00:14:01] Josh: I used a couple different ones. Um, or no, it was stock photo secrets or something like that. It was one of those like stock photo sites. But I just paid the unlimited license fee on my end and I just had that as a bonus for my clients. I said, if you need stock photos, we can do up to 10, and if you need more yeah, then we’ll buy one off.
[00:14:19] Josh: And we did buy one off on, on some clients. Some clients, like I remember a, a very niche, uh, construction. They were doing like construction management and they needed exact pictures, so we found like exact stock photos and each photo was like 20 bucks or something. Exactly, yeah. Yeah. So another good lesson, like if, if it, if you isn’t, isn’t if it’s an upsell, excuse me, for clients, if you have a monthly subscription to something for 30 bucks, that’s what a value add for clients cuz you don’t need to nickel and dine them for five to 10 images.
[00:14:49] Josh: Um, so yeah, hopefully that’s a good lesson for everybody. Now the contract, so in my business course I’ve refined the contract that I had in place and that will be refined over time, especially now to include privacy terms, disclosures, accessibility, um, so that’s refined over time like you said. Anne, one thing I’ve also updated that in is not only protecting myself, The client’s deliverables, like to make sure we say you have a role in this too, client.
[00:15:19] Josh: If you don’t get contact or contact, excuse me, within the right amount of time, then these are the rep repercu repercussions. Like the project’s gonna be delayed or there’s gonna be a penalty or, or a fee or something like that. Um, yeah. What are some of the other key areas in contracts that we need to make sure we have As far as like a, a legal type of thing?
[00:15:38] Josh: Uh, Josh, how much time do we, how much time we got?
[00:15:41] Ann: Listen, I wish I could simplify this, but it’s a lot. Like, I just drafted a contract for web designers. I’m gonna put up for sale soon. Um, but it’s like 14 pages and I went through and I was like, I wonder what I could cut of this. And there’s not much I thought was I could cut.
[00:15:57] Josh: So have you looked at mine in the business course?
[00:15:59] Ann: I have not, but
[00:16:00] Josh: uh oh, we need to fix that. We need to rip you that. I can’t wait. I wish we would’ve done it before this, but that’s all right. We’ll, uh, Uh, yeah, I would love to have you take a look at that cause I’m sure there’s a lot that we can add to.
[00:16:11] Ann: Yeah, I just sent Eric my contract. Um, okay. So just so that he has it and because I wanted to see, like, what did he, what did you guys use in Intrans studios?
[00:16:19] Josh: Um, okay. Yeah. He’s, he’s refined it to the services that, and some of the stuff that Intrans is doing now that he’s overseeing. But the, the core and the foundation of what, uh, my agency in transit uses is what I had in place.
[00:16:31] Ann: So, yeah. Uh, which I, you know, that I saw. And so what I liked about it was that it was like very plain language, which is unusual and something that I, you know, my contracts are all plain language so that everyone can understand. Um, but yeah, it’s. What needs to go into a contract. Okay. It, it’s just very detailed. So let me pull up my little list I made here,
[00:16:51] Josh: and I’m gonna pull mine up too just on. Just for everyone’s sake, I’ll just give the highlights of mine. Of course, I’m not gonna read the entire thing for this podcast episode, but I do think it’s worthwhile from a legal perspective, knowing what you should at least have covered.
[00:17:04] Josh: And honestly, for me that’s essentially, that was my mindset is I just want to make sure we’re covered as best as possible. Yeah. So essentially, I. Anyone who has listening to this show for a while, you know, I love threes. So my contract is essentially, while you’re pulling that up, Ann is three phases and I just, the first phase is getting started and it has all the things including deliverables, payment, limited liability hosting, um, review, all that stuff.
[00:17:33] Josh: Phase two is development. Um, so this point of contact and training, there’s project management, there’s file sharing, project turnaround response time delays, and project drag on drag ons. And then there’s completions, there’s the going live stuff, backups, website security, maintenance care warranties, uh, testimonials, which is like a dis uh, release to be able to use testimonials, images, et cetera.
[00:17:55] Josh: So that’s a very, very high level look at my contract. Um, but mine is a very basic and simple contract. But, uh, the reason I did that is it made clients feel at ease, quite honestly. I remember, um, yeah, before I turn over to you, Anne, I had a very robust. Uh, template that I took from some web design template shop years ago, and it like scared some clients.
[00:18:18] Josh: Some clients were like, I’m afraid you’re gonna sue me, man. Good lordy. Totally. And then I learned to try to marry the best of both worlds. So
[00:18:26] Ann: this is what I, that’s better buddy. So this is what I, I don’t quite understand like why all of these contracts. So here’s what happened. Like I had a client, or I was sending her a contract and I just, I hadn’t like, written my own contract cause I was like, whatever, I’ll just use whatever the system has.
[00:18:42] Ann: I just wanna, like, I, I don’t care that much. I’m just gonna send this to her. Um, cuz once a client like is interested, you wanna like turn around a contract really quickly. Um, and so I was just like, I’m just gonna send this and I’ll figure it out later. Um, and then I read the contract and I was like, I can’t send this, this is gonna be like really unfriendly.
[00:18:59] Ann: And what if she doesn’t book? And like, you know, I put so much effort into all the messaging to like my website and then to the, to the client call, like all of the stuff. And like, I don’t want it to fall apart in the last thing where I send her the contract. Um, and so this is what made me design my own, drop my own contract and to realize that like, oh, I wonder why like other people don’t do this.
[00:19:20] Ann: Why you don’t build a legally robust contract that’s also friendly and then you, it’s just people can read it and understand. So I just had someone give me feedback on my contract and they said, what I love about this is one that it’s, um, designer specific, and two, that I’m not afraid that my client is gonna get scared off when they see this client, when they see this contract.
[00:19:37] Josh: That’s beautiful. So yeah, that is kinda the, the, the hard part of contracts. Yeah, for
[00:19:42] Ann: sure. Yeah. But it doesn’t have to be like, there’s no good reason. It’s just that like, it’s always done a certain way. It’s always written in like specific language, but like there’s no really good reason that it has to be written in that language.
[00:19:54] Josh: And I know, um, as I was just scanning mine, I didn’t really think about it, but one thing I’ve realized is my contract is a lot of it is basically FAQs. Like it’s a lot of exactly what happens. Exactly. If the client doesn’t give content in time, uh, is there a penalty? What happens if, what? The payment schedule, what, like how are you available for a certain amount of time afterwards? What happened if I don’t do your maintenance plan? Uh, it’s basically an FAQ section. A lot of it.
[00:20:21] Ann: Yeah. And Josh, I know that you, we, you’ve talked a lot about on the podcast about like the story brand and the concept that you are the guide for your client. Like it is their story. They’re, you’re, they’re the hero and you’re just there to like guide them through.
[00:20:34] Ann: And so the contract is another one of these tools to help you do that. To say this is exactly what this project is gonna consist of. Like, you don’t know anything about web designs. I’m the expert, so let me tell you all the parts about this in plain language that you really understand. So you trust me so you feel like I got this.
[00:20:51] Ann: And I’ll show you exactly how we’re gonna end up, where we’re gonna end up. So that’s what I love about the contract. Like I know that everyone like demonizes it and they’re like, Ugh, contract is so scary. But like, what I love about it is because it clearly align it. Everything on expectations about like what you, what the client is gonna get.
[00:21:07] Josh: So, so that’s how I urge people to, I love that approach. What a great challenge to make the contract warm and friendly. Like le you know, you gotta cover your, your business and cover your end of things. Yeah. But also make it empowering for the clients because it’s also just as much for the client as it is for us.
[00:21:26] Josh: Like, they wanna make sure they’re signing off with somebody who is not gonna disappear halfway through a project and then they’re gone, which has happened to many a client. Yeah.
[00:21:36] Ann: Um, so it, you know, there’s, there’s a, the things, the basic things I should think you should have in a contract, just the high level, specify what’s included and specify what’s not included.
[00:21:48] Ann: Your client has no idea about website. They are coming to you cuz you’re the expert. Do they know what domain is? No. They don’t know what domain is. Do they know what hosting is? No. They don’t know what domain hosting is. Like explain everything to them so they know, Hey, I’m gonna build this website for you, but you’re in charge of the domain and hosting, you have to purchase it.
[00:22:05] Ann: Like, you have to walk them through these things because they’re the hero on the story and you’re the guide. So like, spell everything up. They don’t know any web photos. They’re like, okay, well I just hired you to build the website, so you’re just gonna build a website. They don’t know that they have to provide you content.
[00:22:18] Ann: They don’t even know what content is. Like, they assume they know nothing. Like if you go to the average person on the street and you’re like, what’s a website? And they’re like, they’re really not gonna. Be able to explain it, I think. Yeah. And you know, to be fair, like that’s not their job. Like how would they know?
[00:22:32] Ann: So you just have to like really specify what is included and what is not. Like your example for stock photos. Great. You specify stock photos. I guarantee you they don’t know what stock photos are like. So you have to talk, you break it down for them.
[00:22:42] Josh: Dumb it down to like a 10 year old. Right. Like if you can explain it to a 10 year old, that should be good for clients.
[00:22:48] Ann: And not in like a, oh they should know this, but they don’t. Kind of condescending way, but just to explain it because it’s not their job. If it’s not your job, like you’re not gonna know.
[00:22:56] Josh: Yeah, great point. Yeah. Yeah. So that, that’s great. The copywriting, the contract stuff, I mean that’s a, I would imagine that’s a bulk of, of the legal stuff. I love that you made that point about what’s included and what’s not. Because then some clients nowadays might wonder. All the extra things like accessibility, um, yep. Whatever, whatever the case is. Or when it comes to marketing and, and strategy seo, for example. Yep. I can’t tell you how many clients I had before I did some SEO work.
[00:23:25] Josh: They would say, Hey, we launched our site last week. Why aren’t I the first on Google? And I’m like, hold on, we didn’t even talk about that. And Right. Like what term? You know, like what term are you search? So that’s probably an area that I wish I would’ve gone back and been a little more clear about with a lot of my clients, is the difference between the website build and the design versus like, ongoing work, SEO copy, like all those type of things. So I love that point.
[00:23:51] Ann: Right. Um, so, you know, a good contract, there are two sections really. Um, there’s a section that outlines exactly what we talked about, project expectations, like, think of it as like project management written out what’s included. The, what’s the timeline, what’s the fees, what happens and what somebody wants to cancel.
[00:24:07] Ann: All of those kind of things. Just the like nuts and bolts of what you’ll deliver, when you’ll deliver it, and how much it’s gonna cost when payments are expected. Like, all of those, like, think of it as like this is the project management. Right. So that’s the first phase. The second phase is a lot more about, um, like the legal stuff that you wanna cover.
[00:24:25] Ann: For example, it’s making, it’s uh, putting in a point there that um, any material that the client gives you, any kind of contact, whether it’s fonts, images, whatever, is complies with all copyright laws so that it is everything they have, right. They have a right to use that. Um, you wanna make that like, you know, web designers don’t even think about that.
[00:24:44] Ann: So I guarantee you clients aren’t thinking about it. But it’s a good point to point out to them and be like, Hey, I’m gonna need like a certain number of images and like, you’re gonna have to provide that from me from a source that is legal.
[00:24:54] Josh: Yeah. Cuz they would still, in that case, they would be liable, right? Like if they send you a stock photo that they didn’t pay for, they would still be the one at fault, not the web designer hosting the.
[00:25:04] Ann: Exactly. So that’s why like you need legal provisions like that and you need a provision like, uh, it’s called a limitation of liability to say, okay, something goes wrong if for something like, you know, God for, um, if we make a mistake or something happens, like your liability is limited to whatever the price of the package is.
[00:25:21] Ann: Like they can’t come after you for four times that amount or five times or whatever. It’s specific to the price of that package. There’s a lot of like legal clauses that also need to go in there, and that’s like the second phase of the contract.
[00:25:33] Josh: Okay. And I do wanna get into maybe some business entity set ups and stuff like that at some point here. Um, I do have a question though in regards to the contract because I never customize my contract per project, what I did. Because I spent so much time doing that manually, I was like, okay, there’s gotta be a better way. I don’t wanna have to do this every project, especially for smaller pro jobs, if they’re gonna be pretty quick.
[00:25:58] Josh: So what I did is in 17 hats, I have a workflow to where when I put a proposal together that’s based off a template, I just customize it with the project details that sends to the client. And if they okay that, then that takes them to the contract. Now my contract is boiler plate as far as like it’s, it’s the same for every project.
[00:26:20] Josh: However, what I say is I just say, uh, instead of like having the project amount and everything in there, I just say, please refer back to the proposal or deliverables project. Maybe too late. I did that for years. Is that okay? Because that made, that sure as heck made my life easier to, to have a, a standard template for a contract that I didn’t actually go in and customize every time. I always just said, refer back to the proposal for project details, scope, deliverables, et cetera.
[00:26:47] Ann: Yeah, no, I think that’s brilliant actually. I think it’s a great way to have something that you need to specify and then keep it outta the contract, which is all the legal change that none of the legal stuff should ever change contract to contract.
[00:26:58] Ann: That should all be the same. Um, and it’s the, you’re right that it’s the project information that really should change and get specified. Um, that is okay as long as your client has to like, sign off on the project material. Uh, the project expectations like what? The proposal you called it. So as long as you have them like check something or sign off and say, yes, I agree to these terms, and that’s fine. It’s essentially like a two-part contract. Yeah. Um,
[00:27:20] Josh: no, that’s a good way to think about it. Never thought about it like that, but wow, that is genius because that’s what it is in 17 hats. They have to sign off on the proposal saying, I accept. They basically accept the quote and then you accept the contract.
[00:27:34] Josh: The reason I love, I love this even more now as, as we’re really getting into the weeds on this, is because I’ve seen a lot of web designers have proposals and contracts mixed together, and I think that’s where clients really get scared off is if they see the project details and deliverables mixed in with all the legal stuff, and then they see a big price and then they see like, you know, limited liability, a warranty and all this stuff.
[00:27:59] Josh: I feel like that’s where it can be a little. A little, um, repulsive for clients sometimes if they’re like, oh my gosh, this is just like, this is making me nervous. Whereas if they see the deliverables, the proposal, and they’re like, yes, that looks good, then here comes the fine print, here’s all the details.
[00:28:14] Josh: Most clients aren’t even gonna look at it, but the few who do, they’ll be like, okay, the bases are covered, and then they move forward to the invoice and payment. That’s, that was my system.
[00:28:23] Ann: Exactly. I think that, I think that’s a great system.
[00:28:26] Josh: Awesome. Well, I’m glad because if you said that’s not good, then I’d be like, crap, I’m gonna have to Reba my business course. But I do, I can’t wait to look at your contract when you have that ready, Ann, because I think we’ll probably add a lot of, uh, I’ll refine mine, which at the time of recording this, I actually just started on, uh, version 2.0 of my business course.
[00:28:44] Josh: I’m gonna revamp it with, tighten some things up, add a few new lessons, and, and do, uh, some new videos. Um, so yeah, the perfect timing. When is, when is that coming out for you? Do you know when that resource is gonna be available? Yeah.
[00:28:56] Ann: Um, contract. Yeah, I’ll, I can send it to you today. Uh, okay. Eric has a copy, but like, uh, you know, I’ll put it up for sale on my website in a few weeks.
[00:29:05] Josh: Oh, I’m so excited. I’m so excited. Yeah. If you’re a new listener, by the way, and you hear Eric, Eric is my c e o who took over my web design agency back in 2020 so I could teach full-time. So if you ever hear Eric, uh, that’s, that’s who we’re referencing. So we talked about like business entities. I’d love to shift maybe towards when you set your business up.
[00:29:25] Josh: I’m trying to even remember when I did in Transit Studios back in, I think 2010 is when I made official October, 2010, I believe. I just went to Chase Bank and I set up a business account, and then they sent me a, they sent a form to get my name officially, officially registered with the state of Ohio. And then they gave me a e i n number. And I think that’s, that was all I did. I mean, is that basic? Is that the basics? Pretty much,
[00:29:50] Ann: yeah. You know, I have a take on this that’s a little different from a few other people I’ve heard out there. Okay, cool. I’m excited. Hit me. Yeah. I don’t think your business entities is the most important thing going it, like getting to started.
[00:30:03] Ann: Like, I’m amazed at you did that. Um, I don’t, I think most people don’t do that, and I don’t think most people have to do that. Um, so when you start doing business on your own, just like, you’re like, okay, I’m gonna open up a cake shop, or a cupcake stand, or a web design business. You’re automatically a sole proprietor.
[00:30:19] Ann: So what that means is the government sees you and your business as one thing. You don’t have to do anything additional to get started. Like whatever you make, you’re gonna get taxed at the same rate as if you run an individual. And so the benefit of that is that it’s really easy. No forms fill out, no nothing, no registration.
[00:30:35] Ann: Like you can use your bank account like you can do. It’s the same thing. Um, but the problem is, say a few years down the line, you get sued for copyright infringement and a judgment is entered against you. Meaning a judge decides that you owe like $10,000, for example, for infringing on someone’s copyright.
[00:30:53] Ann: Um, that means the judge can come out for your personal assets as well because you and the business are one and the same. So if you have a car, they’ll be like, okay, well you can sell your car to pay off that debt or whatever. Um, so that’s the downside of it. Easy to get started, but potentially legally, um, difficult.
[00:31:10] Josh: Um, and, and I should say too, like I didn’t have like a divine epiphany saying like, I should get my own entity. I, I think I, somebody I had talked to, I had a couple mentors back then to where they were in different businesses and they were just in my professional network and I just let them know. I, I was doing freelance for nearly a year or actually about a year and a.
[00:31:29] Josh: Okay. As just it was going into my personal account and then, uh, that’s when I was like, oh, okay, I’m actually starting to make some money. Uh, and then one of them told me like, what if you get sued? Like they can come after your legal, like your stuff too. Just what you said Anne. And I was like, oh, okay. And I think they even said like, just go to the chase and you can just open up like a, a DBA a different entity for that.
[00:31:49] Josh: Because at that point, I don’t even think I was technically, gosh, I don’t even remember. Yeah, I don’t even think I had set up as an L L C or an S corp at that point. That was later on that I eventually became an S-corp. So I was a sole proprietor for the first several years.
[00:32:03] Ann: Okay. That makes a ton of sense. Uh, that’s what I recommend. I think that as soon as you start making some consistent revenue, and you know, I, I put that like at, if you’re making like a thousand to $2,000 a month, I would start the process of forming an L L C. Um, and the only reason I say that is because the l l C takes just a little bit more work.
[00:32:24] Ann: Um, you have to pay a fee on it in every state. It’s different. Uh, it can range anywhere from a hundred dollars to like a thousand dollars. Um, where I live in California, it’s the most expensive at like a thousand dollars a year. Um, but so if you’re starting out, you just don’t need that expense until you can, are really making money.
[00:32:41] Ann: And so that’s why I say you don’t, it’s, I, I’m a big proponent when people get started with their businesses, like they should just get started with their business. Yes. Focus on getting clients. Good point. I forget where we, Joshua was a podcast episode that you did, and there was somebody that came on and they said like, you have like different levels of priorities and your first priority is about building profit.
[00:33:02] Ann: Um, and like that’s the first most important thing. And then after that you can sort of develop your systems and things like that. And then focus on, I think the third point was like legacy, um,
[00:33:12] Josh: Michael Kaz, he was just on recently. Yeah.
[00:33:16] Ann: Yeah. And so anyway, so that’s something that I’ve always thought about, which is why like, I’m, I’m always like, okay, well first focus on getting clients and then once you have like a steady stream of clients, then, then go into sort of the legal hassle of setting up an L L C. Not hard, but still annoying to do. And I know most people don’t think setting up, uh, legal entities is their definition.
[00:33:35] Josh: I am so glad you said that, and this is why I was so excited to talk with you and why you make me feel warm and fuzzy about the legal stuff. Because how many lawyers say, just start making money and then we’ll worry about this.
[00:33:46] Josh: I feel like most lawyers are probably like, well, we need a five year business plan and we need to get all of our ducks in a row. Like I, I’m sure there’s that segment of the, of the industry that, uh, like you can literally prepare, prepare and plan and plan and plan and just never make a sale. And you’ll be able to business, you’ll be outta business before you even get your feet off the ground.
[00:34:04] Josh: So, uh, yeah. Yeah. That’s a great sentiment. And, and I do wanna say too, one thing I was just thinking. I didn’t know I was going to really start a business. You, you know, most of my story, like I was just doing work on the side and I thought it’d be nice to get a job one day as a web designer or a designer, and yeah, it might be nice to do freelance for a while, but I had no intention of making it an actual business, which is probably why I took baby steps.
[00:34:31] Josh: I, I had everything funneling into my personal account and then realized, okay, I need to have some sort of separation here. So I did the DBA sole proprietorship, and then I think it was a, maybe two years later, I. 2012 was when I became an S Corp, I’m pretty sure. Uh, maybe 13. And that’s when I, that’s when it was like, oh, we’re going, we’re going for it now.
[00:34:49] Josh: Cause 2013 is when I made the decision to like, go for it and go for six figures. So yeah. So I say like, it might depend right on, on the. Where you’re at.
[00:34:58] Ann: Yeah. So for whatever, for everyone listening what Josh said about an S corp, it’s an election that you could take after L l C and you do it for tax reasons, to save more money on tax reasons. It only makes sense after you’re after at like a certain income level, which I can’t figure out exactly. I don’t remember what it is off the top of my head. So totally makes sense, Sasha. Like I want to be, I wanna hit six figures, I wanna get be an S corp, so I pay fewer taxes. Um, so that’s definitely not something you need to worry about until you hit that six figure.
[00:35:27] Josh: Yeah, so, and I, I’m trying to remember in the beginning, I thought I went straight to an S corp because I was Oh, really? At an income level, because my in transit was never an llc. Josh hall.co actually started as an llc, and then we just la a couple years ago switched it over to an S-corp. Um, which I, that is not my area of expertise.
[00:35:46] Josh: I am so thankful that I have a CPA who really knows the tax law as well. And this is state dependent, so this is gonna depend on the, the state you’re in and the variables. So I don’t, should, do we need to issue a disclaimer here and do we need to say like, uh, everything that I’m sharing, it may not work exactly for you, depending on where you are in the world, but, uh, the basics are the same, I would imagine.
[00:36:09] Ann: Yeah. Uh, it, it’s very, it, it, it’s very, uh, dependent on state
[00:36:14] Josh: Yeah. And country. Like certain countries have, like, we have e i n numbers. Most countries, I think outside of the US have VAT numbers. VAs, when I first saw that, I was like, what in the hell is that? Somebody sent me an invoice, they were like, I need my VAT number on here. And I was like, what? What is that? What is a, what is a vat? I have no idea. Uh, I
[00:36:34] Ann: also have no idea. I draw my line of expertise at US Law. Like I don’t really know much about international law.
[00:36:41] Josh: Gotcha. So, wow. What a, what a, uh, potential area for you to be able to make some connections with, uh, lawyer, web designers and the EU and, and elsewhere. That could be kind of cool.
[00:36:53] Ann: Yeah. Um, yeah,
[00:36:55] Josh: definitely. So, S corp, L l c, uh, we don’t need to dive too far into that because how, what, I guess what’s the difference between what a lawyer would do and a CPA would? Um, really when it comes to, to setting up those entities?
[00:37:08] Ann: Yeah, it’s a really good question. Um, honestly, a lot of this is something that’s a lot of, when we were talking about like different entities.
[00:37:16] Ann: Um, the reason like, as a lawyer, I can tell you, you know, it’s probably better to have an L L C if you’re making steady income because you’re going to be, um, you could, it pro it protects your assets in terms of a conflict in the future with a potential client or something. So that’s how I’m like, you should form an llc, an accountant or a CFO O would say you should get an LLC for tax reasons.
[00:37:38] Ann: It’s gonna save you a lot of money. Um, there are attorneys that are tax attorneys and so they specialize in that specific area. And so they’re kind of a, they don’t, I don’t, they don’t do the actual math they could tell you or to, um, but they can tell you how to set up the entity for tax benefits.
[00:37:53] Ann: So, that’ss the difference, like I can be like, this is for a legal perspective, this is why you need an L L C, and, uh, a cfo, F O or an accountant will tell you, okay, let’s. Tell, look, you can save money too on taxes if you do it.
[00:38:06] Josh: So a tax attorney do. How far do you venture into the tax realm then, Anne? Do you consider yourself a tax attorney or is tax strictly CPA kind of stuff?
[00:38:14] Ann: I think taxes, it’s strictly c uh, cpa. Yeah,
[00:38:20] Josh: it’s kind of like web design Two. Those things change so much. Like Chelsea, my CPA is always telling me like, Hey, there’s something new going on in, uh, in Ohio. Or I know for a long time I could not have an affiliate account with Site Ground because Ohio had some sort of online.
[00:38:36] Josh: Sale tax for affiliate products makes, it was like, this makes sense. Line item because I tried to sign up for site ground and they were like, we can’t, that’s not available in your regions. Um, it’s different now, but it’s interesting. Like those things do, do play a part in how we sell things online potentially, even if we’re selling all over the world.
[00:38:54] Josh: Um, right. So that’s a good distinction. So tax versus like CPA versus a lawyer, tax accountant that again, it kind of all blends together. I mean, what are the fees, like let’s say realistically, cause I’m sure people who are getting started or maybe are early in the journey are like, okay, I need to firm this stuff up.
[00:39:11] Josh: What are we looking at? What’s the investment for like, I don’t know, that’s tough to say exactly, but what would be like a ballpark range to be able to get web design business set up? Correct. Legally,
[00:39:22] Ann: the, the number one thing you need is a contract. Um, and you can look, you can get a contract from, uh, like a legal template shop like mine or, or there are others as well. And so that should run you a couple hundred dollars. Um, and you know, that’s should be enough for you to get started. Um, and you don’t need to do anything else. Uh, you don’t understand intellectual property laws. Uh, you can Google around or maybe I’ll make a YouTube video soon about it.
[00:39:46] Ann: Um, and so that is all, you know, that’s free and you can figure that out pretty easily, which is the baseline is don’t use any images, content, font, anything that you don’t have the right to use. So you don’t need, it’s not that complicated. Um, so that is that. And then if you want to have an attorney, you can hire an attorney on a per project or per hourly basis. I always recommend hiring attorneys on per project. Just try to negotiate with them if they’re open to it to say, Hey, I’m not gonna do.
[00:40:12] Ann: Hourly thing. I feel like that co, that creates a lot of client mistrust, I think when you’re being billed hourly, cuz then you’re like, oh, well how much is this gonna cost? Versus if somebody gave you Yeah, the upfront flat B flat fee, you’re like, okay, fine. I know exactly how much it’s gonna cost. I can afford it or not, and I’m moving on with my day and just, yeah. I feel like it reduces a lot of stress for clients.
[00:40:32] Josh: So very, very beginning contract with all that in place. Yeah. The next level of, if you wanted to start a bank account, get your, uh, name, like your business name registered with the state and set up an L L C or an scor, probably start with an L L C. What would that on average?
[00:40:48] Ann: So that really varies State, state, it could be. Yeah, I would say it could be a couple hundred dollars to, up to like a thousand. Um, depends on where you are living. Um, like I said, in California it’s pro, it’s about closer to a thousand. Um, and in other places I know it’s closer to a hundred, so it really varies. Um, but again, I don’t, I don’t think you need to do any of that until you are, you have at least a thousand to $2,000 in consistent income every month.
[00:41:15] Josh: Ah, thi I did not think we were gonna go here with this conversation. Ann, I actually love your approach. I was, I was thinking like it might be like you need to have this and this and this and this and this and this, and I didn’t wanna overwhelm everybody, uh, particularly those getting started. So what a breath of fresh air this is.
[00:41:30] Ann: Yeah. Um, you know, if you really wanted to be diligent, super diligent, you could take your contract template and have an attorney take a look at it. And, and see if you wanted to customize it. Um, that would, that should also cost like a couple hundred dollars for them to review it and make sure everything is, looks good.
[00:41:45] Josh: Gotcha. Gotcha. What about, uh, more established business owners? What are the things that we might need to refine? Like are there gaps that you typically see with business owners where there’s like a big liability? I mean, I would imagine the contract track thing is probably pretty common. Like, um, yeah, I haven’t looked at my contract in 10 years.
[00:42:06] Josh: Probably time to refine that and, and look at that. But are there any other gaps that you see that are missing typically for established business?
[00:42:13] Ann: Contracts. So you want contracts, both of your clients, um, any kind of employees you have, um, you want contracts with like, uh, contractors, like any, like people who do work for you, things like that. That’s something you should have in place. Uh, second like business structures for tax purposes to see if there’s any way you could be saving money on taxes.
[00:42:31] Ann: That’s like really important. Like if there are any new laws or any new structures, like these things change all the time. Um, and so it’s just important to keep abreast of those kind of things to save you money.
[00:42:41] Ann: And the third thing that I think is under discussed, but equally relevant is wills, right? Like, it’s important to think about like what happens to your business. Like if something happens to you tomorrow, you know, what happens to your family? Like remember to think about all of those things as well. I don’t do trust in the states, which is what Wills is, but that’s, I think it’s something to think about.
[00:43:00] Ann: And, you know, I’m, um, Josh, I think we’re the same age. We’re both uh, 30. I’m gonna be 36 next month. Oh. And so Oh, awesome. I’m 36 now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, I just remind all of my friends, especially when they’re having kids, like, do you have a will in place? Uh, and I just think it’s something to think about because we’re, honestly, we’re getting older and like anything can happen.
[00:43:20] Josh: You know, it’s so funny you mentioned that how timely, Anne, I literally just last week had a talk with my financial advisor and we’re getting some of that set up not only on the personal front, but for the business. Um, this is where it’s tricky with a personal brand because it’s not easy for somebody to take over.
[00:43:36] Josh: Like, I’m Josh, there’s not another, there’s not another Josh Hall. Now what I am working on in full transparency are like entities under my personal brand that I could scale up and bring other people on if I wanted to or could even be sellable. For example, web Designer Pro, the one reason I made that an entity of its own is it’s, I am the founder.
[00:43:56] Josh: I run it, it’s, I’m doing all the work in it, but it is something that could evolve over time. So it’s a good lesson learned, like even if you have a personal brand, perhaps create services that are like entities or have something that you can have some, you can do something with in the case of death or in the case of retirement or selling or whatever it looks like.
[00:44:17] Josh: The reason I mentioned it was interesting that I just talked to my financial advisor is because she shared with me a story that was like devastating for, and this was true to my heart because I, my wife is a stay-at-home mom. She doesn’t, you know, she couldn’t take over the business, but in this case, her client passed away and he had a, I think it was a dentist, he had a dental business.
[00:44:36] Josh: The wife took it over because she had like the, all the shares that he had in the business, but she can’t, she couldn’t run it. And then they essentially had to sell it. And because no one knew, like the, the, all the, the, the legal things involved with it basically sold super cheap. And she didn’t get, like, barely any money after a lifetime of work of, of this guy building the dental practice.
[00:44:59] Josh: So Right. Timely reminder to get that stuff in place to make sure, I mean, that can, that’s a whole separate conversation, I’m sure. But, uh, what talk with attorney to make sure you have your will and, and a plan for what happens in your business if you’re not here kind of thing.
[00:45:13] Ann: Yeah. Protecting your legacy.
[00:45:15] Josh: Yeah. Mentioned, that’s what Mike Mcit just talked about, uh, a couple episodes back. It’s you profit, you build the systems and then Yeah. The legacy. Like what, how far is business gonna go? What’s the plan? What’s it gonna do if you’re not here? Yeah, yeah.
[00:45:30] Ann: Um, so anyway, it’s, you know, when you’re a business, when you’re, especially when you’re a small business, it’s so entwined with your life, literally on a day to day basis. And in the grand scheme of things, it’s just very different than if you’re working for someone and you work for a corporation, then you don’t have to think about succession planning for your business. It’s fine. But like, when it’s your business, you do have to think about it.
[00:45:50] Josh: Is succession planning, is that the official term for
[00:45:54] Ann: Yeah, it just is trust and estates and wills. That’s essentially what it’s called.
[00:45:59] Josh: Gotcha. Trust and states. Gotcha. And I imagine that’s very different for states, right? Is that different for state? Yeah, it with all the legalities with that?
[00:46:07] Ann: Right. Especially, um, it if affects questions about different states handle marriage and money that comes in through marriage differently and so it’s important to think about.
[00:46:18] Josh: Gotcha. Um, something I’m actually, I just took a look over in Web Center Pro you, you had posted, uh, in there recently just to see if anyone had questions. Austin, actually a really good question that I wanted to, to bring up here, which is what about insurance? Versus, I mean, I think pretty much everyone should at least have personal insurance, but what about business insurance in the case?
[00:46:40] Josh: I mean, I, I’ve never had an issue, but I guess this could come into play, I would imagine with a lawsuit. But even if there’s like, uh, a loss of information or, uh, a breach of co like contact details and, and stuff like that, privacy laws that gets into that. Like what, yeah, what, what’s your thoughts on insurance for business?
[00:47:00] Ann: I’m gonna classify insurance with things that I think you can get. Um, like I don’t think it’s something that you need immediately just because you’re probably, if you’re just starting out, then you probably don’t have a lot of assets to protect yet. Um, but once you start making consistent income, and, and, and certainly when you hit six figures like it, Definitely started to think about business insurance and just like an example of why, what business insurance is, it covers you in the, in the event of like a lawsuit or some sort of natural disaster.
[00:47:28] Ann: Um, my parents are entrepreneurs. They run their own medical practices and we got hit by the hurricane this past, uh, fall. And so they’re, you know, my dad’s office is like pretty, uh, was almost destroyed by the hurricane. And so business insurance kicked in to help him pay for all the renovations. And so in that kind of case then, yeah, business insurance is really important.
[00:47:48] Ann: I don’t think it’s important immediately, so you don’t have to worry about that. But you know, definitely something to think about as you progress in your career. Um, business insurance is definitely something like a financial advisor could help more about, or like an insurance broker, you can get quotes from them about how much everything should be. Um, and so that’s, that’s not as much legal as it is a business, strategy choice.
[00:48:09] Josh: Gotcha. You know what? I just had the sign. It’s funny. I used to always, like, clients used to drive me crazy when they would think I would be the social media guy in the digital marketing and I would be the videographer and do all these other things, but I kind of relate to them in this sense and feel for them because when I think about financial advisor, tax attorney, lawyer, I, they all blend together in my mind too.
[00:48:32] Josh: So I don’t really know like where it’s, I, I have much better feel for that now. But in the beginning, my gosh, I had no idea if I should talk to a lawyer or a CPA or or a financial advisor. So it does seem like on the outside those all tend to blend together a little
[00:48:45] Ann: bit. Yeah, and the best way I can explain it is that a lawyer will help prevent you from getting sued and deal with a lawsuit. Uh, tax professional, like a CPA, will help you save money in taxes and the financial advisor is there to really figure out, okay, how to invest whatever you’re making from your business or your job and how to grow that wealth through investments.
[00:49:06] Josh: Gotcha. Great distinction. What a great little, what a great little distinction. We’re gonna clip that one out cuz that’s a, a perfect visual for the, for the three different buckets there. Um, yeah. Yeah.
[00:49:17] Ann: All important. But there are different jobs and I don’t recommend that the, it’s very hard for the same person as I’ve never met someone who does all three, because all of those are pretty detailed areas of expertise, so it’s hard to develop that expertise in all of them.
[00:49:31] Ann: Like, you know, I know, I know something about taxes, but like, I don’t know that much about taxes. Uh, and I know, know, I know something about investments, but not, nothing like super detailed.
[00:49:42] Josh: Yeah. It’s got, it’s like a, like a web designer. It’s like, well I know a lot about copywriting, but I don’t know that much about seo. So we’ll do the basics, but talk to an SEO person to, to really go to the next step. It’s kind of the same, uh, yeah. Yeah. A lot of parallels there. Right. Uh, and web designer pro as well. Dan had asked another great question, um, which we’ve al we’ve already talked a lot about. Examples of mistakes to avoid, I think in some cases in regards to contract, copyright, images, things like that.
[00:50:11] Josh: Um, do you have a real life story about a company that was hit? If you have a web designer story, that’d be amazing, but are there some examples of like how some of what we talked about or they don’t have it in place, how that’s actually come back to, to, to be a lawsuit or something? Because I don’t personally know anyone who’s been sued as a web designer.
[00:50:29] Josh: And I did have a client threaten me once, which I’m happy to share about. He was kind of an idiot anyway, but. It was a cheap threat. Like there was no grounds for him to actually sue me for something. So Do you have any stories about like, lawsuits for creatives or designers or anything?
[00:50:44] Ann: I don’t have any stories. Um, I was listening to Elizabeth Mc Gravy. Uh, she. Was on your podcast a few episodes ago, and she has her own like, uh, web designer course. And so we, I was listening to that course and she talks about how the instances when she had to confront people who she felt was like copying on, uh, copying her designs.
[00:51:05] Ann: Um, and so what was interesting about that is that in a lot of those cases, people were not intentionally doing it, but like whatever they produced looked very similar to, um, her work too. And so she had really good advice. You know, first of all, take it to someone who’s objective about it. Like show them the two things and say, Hey, do you see a similarity or am I reading a lot into this?
[00:51:25] Ann: And then two, approach it from a level headed manner and be like, Hey, I don’t know if you realize this, but like, this looks like it copied a lot. And so, you know, make it in a friendly way and just be like, I don’t assume that they don’t know that. That they copied it, uh, or like, they assume that they don’t see the similarity and it was inadvertent.
[00:51:44] Josh: Um, so, and would that be just a cease and desist, like a, a letter with like a.
[00:51:48] Ann: well, Elizabeth was explaining that it would be like a, an email that she sent that was like a friendly email. Um, you know, and if things need to escalate, you can escalate from there. Um, but start from the premise that this is more of an accident than and than anything.
[00:52:03] Josh: So can I sue all of my students and everyone at Web Designer Pro for building websites that are made off of my designs? Do I have legal? I’m not gonna do that. Of course.
[00:52:13] Ann: I was about to say, Josh. I don’t think
[00:52:15] Josh: That’s a little different for like course creators if it’s like, Hey, use this template right.
[00:52:18] Ann: Yeah. If if you, if it’s used as template, then you absolutely cannot. Yeah, that’s, but if it’s part of the course, no.
[00:52:25] Josh: If it’s like, wow, you really ripped that one off, didn’t you? Because there is, I mean, all knowledge is borrowed, all design is borrowed in a way, but it’s, um, who said that recent, I think it was Chris Doe who recently said, who’s a great follow on Instagram if anyone hasn’t followed him, trying to get him on the podcast, by the way.
[00:52:42] Josh: Um, but he had something where he said, best, the best designers don’t copy a one design completely. They take like the best aspects that they like of multiple designs and make it their own. And I wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment. Like, yeah, you can look at a site and be like, Ooh, I like the buttons there, let me use that on this.
[00:53:01] Josh: And then if you make it your own and use some other elements, it’s gonna look completely different. Um, but it’s that like, bla and actually, funny you mentioned that. I, I remember, I think it’s still up there. If you search manually, migrate WordPress, Um, there was some guy who made a video that looked awfully similar to mine.
[00:53:20] Josh: Oh yeah. It’s literally, I, he literally, I, it’s still on there. Um, if you searched Manly Migrate WordPress, now I changed my artwork a while back, but he literally took the exact design of my thumbnail, uh, like yeah. Font and everything. Uh, so I guess I could, I mean, that’s not something I charge for, so I don’t know what the legal grounds would be for that, but I guess I would potentially probably have the right to say like, Hey, you ripped off my artwork almost completely here.
[00:53:46] Ann: Yeah, you definitely do. The question I would ask you, is it worth your time?
[00:53:50] Josh: Um, yeah, I was just gonna say, I’m totally not gonna do it cuz it’s not worth my time. But, um, it is interesting like the, I, I guess. What legal stance we have in certain cases. It’s like, when are you in the right? And then I guess the question is when is it worth it?
[00:54:07] Josh: I mean, I do think there’s a certain type of person who sues and I don’t know if I’m friends with those type of people unless there is a very, very good reason for it. Um, cuz there are people who just tend to sue because they just, it’s like part of their income streams from, from what I’ve seen. I, I know some people like that.
[00:54:26] Josh: Uh, and I know they’ve been known. Like I, there were somebody in the music business when I was a part of that. He was kind of known to like sue artists and he was a scumbag basically. Like, um, yeah. So anyway, I don’t want mean to take us off on a tangent, but it’s kind of interesting to know, like, when do you have the right to potentially take law, law, action, legal action, and when do you just not want to waste the time?
[00:54:47] Ann: Yeah. It, you know, it, I think it is a really good point and I, I think something I wanna make clear is that there is a distinction between. Legal choices and the business strategy choices. Like, I’m always encouraging people to build their businesses, to make sure legal supports business, um, and don’t put legal front and center.
[00:55:07] Ann: And maybe that sounds kind of strange, but like, you know, I want you to make money and I want you to make profit first before you think about like how you’re gonna spend that money on legal fees. Um, and so yeah, Josh, maybe, maybe you do wanna go after the guy. Maybe you wanna hire a lawyer and send a cease desist letter.
[00:55:21] Ann: Or maybe you’re like, you know, I don’t really care. I don’t really think this is taking away from my revenue that much. I have better things to do. I, you know, I could use that time to actually make more money. And so why is this a good use of my time? So, I don’t know. It, it’s, it’s a hard thing to, like, some people are like, on principle, I wanna challenge this.
[00:55:38] Ann: And like, if that’s what’s important to you, then go for it. But like, it is something to think about, like everything in business, like there’s an opportunity cost to every hour we decide to do something. So saying yes is something, means saying no to something else. And. What do you wanna do? You have a limited amount of time in every week.
[00:55:54] Josh: Now, this does bring me to an interesting case study that I had happen a couple years back when, uh, my business course got ripped off. Somebody purchased the course, ripped it off, and distributed it online on one of these networks that just kick out. I mean, basically, this is one thing I’ve learned as a course creator, so heads up, if anyone creates a course, it is probably going to get ripped off.
[00:56:13] Josh: That’s the unfortunate truth of it. Like almost everybody, there’s these, like, these wild sites that basically if you, if, if your information gets on one, they. Distribute out to others. And then what happened was, I, I took Elizabeth approach initially and just sent emails and said, take this down immediately, or I’ll pursue legal actions.
[00:56:33] Josh: Um, and just kept on popping up on different sites. And then what I ended up doing was I, I hired a company called Take Down Czar for, I think I was using them for about a year. They were essentially the mediary, like that’s what they do. They take down copyrighted, uh, or copywritten material from all these sites.
[00:56:51] Josh: However, it was never a hundred percent. And I w and that’s why like if you Google something and you’ll see like, um, couple listings were, uh, copyrighted infringements or something like that. That was the case for my business course for, for a while, is if you Googled it, there were sites that were coming up on the first page.
[00:57:09] Josh: An SEO strategy. I did, Michelle helped me out with this is, I don’t know if you remember this, Anne, but I, I did this in Web Designer Pro when it was called The Club, uh, last year, couple years ago. I had a bunch of my students who were in that course do a blog post, so shout to all my students who did that for me, cuz it worked.
[00:57:27] Josh: Everyone created a blog post about the web design business course and shared their own personal insights and that literally bumped the scammer sites down to page two and three and four, et cetera. So that strategy worked, but I still had to hire, I mean, that company, I was paying 300 bucks a month for like a year just for that course. Uh, so it’s over $3,000 a year just to get that taken down.
[00:57:49] Ann: Yeah, I mean that, Josh, I think that’s a great example of, you know, using a business. Strategy choice to solve a legal issue rather than just focusing on the legal, because that ultimately the SEO thing was more effective, right? That than it wa would’ve been to like, go after these people.
[00:58:06] Ann: It would’ve cost you thousands of legal fees to actually done it. I mean, you could, uh, potentially do it, but like with the internet, there’s always a risk that your, your IP is gonna get leaked out. I just think that’s like a factor. You need to be like, okay, I can’t control all of it. Like a certain amount is gonna leak and then the rest of it, you try to maximize on getting the profits and through, um, and through like, I think a big value of your club and a lot of courses is ability to be on calls and things like that.
[00:58:33] Ann: I think that’s what people are paying for. I mean, the course material is definitely helpful, but to be able to get on a call with you and do a q and a and to ask, Hey, I have a question about this. Like, I think that’s really valuable and that’s, you know, it, you can rip off the course materials, but like you’re not getting that, uh, strategic advice and support so.
[00:58:49] Josh: Oh yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s so funny you mentioned that. I’ve had a couple conversations about that with people who are, are in similar roles as like coaches or course creators or community builders. It’s like, yeah, people could pretty easily rip off any course, but what they can’t rip off is coaching and, uh, the call, like the live calls and stuff like that, you’re totally right.
[00:59:09] Josh: So I guess that’s worthwhile too. Like what services can you create, even if you go the templated route that can be protected and, and from a strategy sense. So I, I love that you’re making a really good distinction and between business strategy versus just lawsuits. Cuz in my cases I kind of did a hybrid approach.
[00:59:27] Josh: I was paying that company to take them down, although I never pursued legal action. Um, but I did pay a company to take it, take care of that end of things as much as possible for a while and use business strategy to, to, to, you know, to, to try to help mitigate that a little bit. So yeah, I guess there’s a lot of options. If you have something that gets ripped off.
[00:59:49] Ann: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I, I know this is really silly, but I have this account and I have, I have this, I have a relationship log that’s like how I got started in all of this. Um, and I have someone who sort of copies content that I put forward, like, if I do something, then she’ll do something.
[01:00:06] Ann: And at first I was like quite irritated by it, but then I decided that, you know, the, um, imitation is the most sincerest form of flattery. And I’m just like, this is, it’s just part and parcel of the job. Like you have to create. You have to continue to keep a Cree content. You have to build your followers, you have to build that community and keep them engaged.
[01:00:25] Ann: Like that’s the mark that you’re gonna be evaluated against. You’re not gonna be evaluated against the people who are copying you or stealing your stuff. And like, you know, that sucks. But like, that’s like being, that’s learning to deal with that emotionally is like kind of learning to deal with all the haters out there.
[01:00:39] Ann: Like, the first time I got a troll, I felt really important. Like, I was like, finally someone cares about me. Like, finally, finally I made it. But like, that’s, you know, that is a thing that you need to be prepared for. Like, you cannot put stuff out online without expecting, uh, like negative comments or trolls or whatever.
[01:00:56] Ann: And like, just gotta factor that in part and parcel. Keep going. No one cares. You’re not gonna get, no one’s gonna keeping a list of like, oh, Anne got like, so many comments on trolls or whatever. Like no one cares. Like, just continue making content.
[01:01:08] Josh: That’s so funny you mentioned that. Yeah. It’s kind of the, uh, it’s the joke of, of any sort of influencer or any notoriety online. It’s like as soon as you start getting haters. You, you’re starting to make it. Because if you don’t get any hate, then it’s like, well, what do you, what? You know, maybe you’re at a lower level or it’s just not worthwhile, somebody doing that. So in a weird way, it’s a compliment. Yeah. Um, I actually found this out too.
[01:01:28] Josh: I remember. Uh, I was on the Smart Fas Passive Income podcast with Pat Flynn a couple years back. It was the first time I got connected with him and they published this article that was about my story and how some of Pat’s courses helped me. And we looked at it later, not much later, like maybe a couple weeks later, and there was all of these jank sites that ripped the story off, but they would change certain details.
[01:01:53] Josh: So for example, one article, I might look it up cause it might still be live, instead of Josh Hall, it was Josh Corridor. So they would take, isn’t that, isn’t that so stupid? Like they would take the terms like, I don’t know, for you, I don’t know. Um, I don’t know what would go with Cappuzzo, but. It would take like a name or a term and then it would just shift it.
[01:02:15] Josh: Like they, they could choose and some and something like that. It could be like hallway or, or something like that, that would be similar but a little bit different. And I don’t know, I don’t understand these scammy sites. I guess it’s just traffic and clicks for like sense of ad money. I don’t know. But, uh, let me look it up real quick.
[01:02:32] Ann: So wait, what they, they would take that article post on their website and then what? I don’t understand, like what was the, how do they get clicks on it?
[01:02:40] Josh: Yeah, so, so smart passive income is, is where that story was. And I just remember seeing success story, a web design. Okay, so the actual article, let me actually, we’re gonna do a live case study here, Fred. Anyone listening or watching, sorry, here, but we’re gonna do this live to see if this is helpful for everybody.
[01:02:59] Josh: So is a, uh, a web designer who’s changing lives success story with Josh Hall. And let’s see here. I just Googled that to see, I forget what term we found that, but it was literally the same article, just duplicated across a ton of different sites. And then one of ’em, I just remember it said Josh Corridor. Uh,
[01:03:22] Ann: Oh, okay. It’s a straight up copy, content
[01:03:24] Josh: copy, straight up copy. Okay. Images, text, just different r l And they would change a few of those details.
[01:03:31] Ann: Yeah. Uh, Elizabeth was saying the same thing happened to her. People would copy blog posts and people would, um, cop even take her testimonials and just like, change the name Elizabeth and put something else.
[01:03:42] Ann: Um, and so I didn’t realize that it happens. It’s not surprising to me. Um, again, I, I guess my philosophy is, When I think about my work, and this is, this is what I’m thinking about when I think about my work, is that like my job is to like keep innovating. Like their job is to copy and my job is to innovate and like I don’t have time to like sit there and like go after every little, it’s like whack-a-mole, right?
[01:04:05] Ann: Like you’re gonna hit one. Yeah. And there’s gonna be 10 more. Like it’s not the best use of your time. Like it’s annoying, it’s sucks, it’s unfair, like all of these things, but like, that’s not how you make money, right? Like going after these people is not really how you make money. And so just focus on the revenue is my, is my bottom line.
[01:04:21] Josh: That is such a great sentiment there, Anne. I absolutely love that. Yes, it, it does get to the point where it’s like, I think in my case with the business course, it was my number one selling course and it was probably potentially taking a big chunk of income if it’s showing up on Google. So that was one case where I was like, okay, I’ve gotta take some action.
[01:04:41] Josh: The first step was to hire that company, which did help, probably got like 90% of, of the sites, but they just pop out like roaches. Um, the next step would’ve been lawsuit. That’s, that’s, and potentially, I, I guess there’s no exact answer for this, but I imagine it would just depend on like, well, how much is this worth?
[01:04:59] Josh: Is if a bus, if my business course is worth like, $50,000 a year, then it’s probably gonna be worthwhile taking some sort of action if it’s gonna be worth something that’s like $10,000. I don’t know. Can you put that time to better use? Probably. So, uh, I guess it just kind of depends on the
[01:05:14] Ann: Yeah. And lawyer fees, right? Like, lawyers are not expensive. Um, and so, or not inexpensive, so you’d have to hire a lawyer to do all that, and I guarantee that’s gonna be thousands of dollars. And most people don’t like spending money on lawyers. It’s not like a fun thing. And so, you know, Uh, yeah, I don’t, it’s really, it’s a tough spot to be in, but like, but Josh, I think you changed your business model, right? So like, now people aren’t just paying for the courses, they’re paying for the membership. So it’s not like,
[01:05:42] Josh: uh, it’s both as, as of right now, it’s both. You can do the courses one off, but with Web Designer Pro, it’s the community and the coaching along with the courses and moving forward, there’s gonna be a lot of stuff that’s exclusively in web designer approach.
[01:05:55] Josh: Just, and one of the main reasons, there’s a lot of reasons I did, I did a podcast a little while ago on why I made that, uh, shift and, and the reasons for it. A lot of it is also because I want to be able to control the variables more. And a and I just wanna get better results for people. And I’ve found the people who have the big, the three big Cs coaching community and courses tend to get the best results.
[01:06:15] Josh: So, um, yeah, as of right now, they can still do that, but that has already helped. I feel like I, I feel like that’s already just. I mean, you could potentially rip something out from circle too. Um, cuz I think in the case of the course that got ripped off, that was mostly screenshots. I don’t think, like I had it set to where you can’t download the videos.
[01:06:34] Josh: Um, I think in advanced dev could probably get into the code if they’ve used source and find it, but we did have some risk mitigation on that stuff. Um, but yeah, it was like screenshots and stuff. But again, you’re right. It’s like is this worth it? Is my time better spent going after this, or is it better spent? Making something new and helping people. So I, uh, yeah. I love that you shared that thought.
[01:06:56] Ann: And you just changed, like the way you’re changing your business compensates for some of that like IP risk of someone stealing it, right? Like, okay, even if someone steals your, your thing, now your course, like, you have like this membership going and that’s like important to your business.
[01:07:11] Ann: And so that is, people can’t copy that part about it. Like they can’t copy the membership. Like either they’re in the membership or they’re not. So it’s, you know, I think courses are important. I think it’s critical, but like there are also other ways to monetize besides that.
[01:07:27] Josh: What are your thoughts on trademarks? Cuz I have web designer pro trademarked. Um, is that something you do as a lawyer? I use trademark. Yeah. A site that’s similar to like legal Zoom to where I just went through them and, and like what are your thoughts on trademarks and how that works? Yeah,
[01:07:42] Ann: I, I think trademarks is something, again, that’s something a little bit more advanced. Um, you know, when you start your business and when I started my business, I did like a quick Google search and I went into the um, like pet us patent trade office just to make sure no one was using, no one in my industry was using my name because I didn’t wanna get like, years down the line to building a brand and then be like, oh man, someone else already trademarked it.
[01:08:05] Ann: Um, and so you could start out doing, you could start out trademarking yet, but I think especially in your first few years of business, like lots of things change. Like maybe your name is gonna change, maybe your niche is gonna change, whatever. Like, I think that’s why it’s, I focus on get the business foundations fundamentals.
[01:08:22] Ann: Right. And then after that, like once you are like, okay, this is like a solid ground, this is how I’m running. Then go in and trademark things, um, because you have a better sense of how this is evolving and you know, there are trademarking is like a little bit more expensive. I don’t know how much it costs for you to go through trademark.
[01:08:38] Josh: Yeah. Um, but to hire it was like more, it was like 400. It wasn’t too bad, it was only 400 for just us. So I did not trademark it for other countries. Um, so if there’s a web designer pro in Germany, best, best of luck to you. Uh, I guess, I guess somebody could do that, but, uh, stateside at least. Yeah, it was like $400 per country.
[01:08:57] Josh: I think there was some other fus associated with it, but it was, I think it was all together less than 600 or something like that. Okay.
[01:09:03] Ann: Yeah. So sometimes it could be around a thousand. Um, so if you wanna go ahead and do that, go for it. But like, things are probably gonna change like last year, like the name I used was a little bit different than the name I ultimately am going for.
[01:09:15] Ann: And so I’m glad I’m waiting to do that. Uh, just cuz you need to figure out a lot of things about your client and customer and I, I don’t. I think that part of like figuring out who you’re serving, how you’re messaging them, what you’re providing is, um, more difficult than it seems.
[01:09:31] Josh: Yes. Totally agree. Well, speaking of your brand, I’d love to wrap this up by, uh, having you and share like where you would like people to connect with you. I know, um, you’re gonna be speaking of Web Designer Pro here in May of 2023 for, uh, a monthly training, or no, I’m sorry, April. We’re doing it this, uh, next month here in April, 2023. Um, so yeah, where would you, we’ll talk about that, but where would you like people to go, uh, to connect with you and maybe to get some resource?
[01:09:57] Ann: You can find me at powerhouselegalum.com. And so that’s my main legal website. And if you go to powerhouse legal, uh, slash resources, it’ll be all LinkedIn, Josh’s show notes. Um, you can get a lot of free resources. And so one of the free resources I created for this podcast is, um, a list of contract, like three non-obvious, uh, contract provisions that you should have.
[01:10:20] Ann: And so what they are and why they’re important. Um, and so that’s like, I think that’s a pretty helpful resource, but I’m looking forward to creating a lot of resources for small business, uh, owners. Like one is something I’m focusing on right now is figuring out, um, how to price yourself well. So trying to put up a, um, a list of what things you need to think about when you’re looking at.
[01:10:41] Josh: Gotcha. Yeah, I, I just, I just remember that you have two sites, essentially. You have Powerhouse Dash strategy and then Powerhouse Dash Legal. Do you separate those two intentionally to separate things from the web designer? You versus the, the lawyer you
[01:10:54] Ann: Yes, exactly. And also for legal liability reasons, powerhouse Legal, um, is my legal services, and so that’s just very different from my web design work, which I specifically focused on with author podcasters and thought leaders. And so it’s just different markets and different, um, different liability.
[01:11:13] Josh: Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. And we’ll have all those resources linked in the show notes for everybody. Um, yeah. Awesome stuff. Anne, I, again, I’ve really enjoyed this conversation. Uh, I know we’re just hitting the high level stuff, which is why I’m excited to have you do a training Web designer pro, cuz you’ll have a little more of a condensed training that’s visual and then we’ll do a live q and a for everyone who wants to join Web Designer Pro.
[01:11:34] Josh: Um, but yeah, I mean we really covered a lot of good ground here from the contracts, the copyright stuff, some, some personal side of things. I think with both of our journeys it’s kind of industry. Uh, interesting. I also just love your approach to just get business going and then worry about the legal stuff as, as, as needed.
[01:11:52] Josh: Almost like as, as, as it comes along the line because yeah, you’re right. If you just plan and prepare and plan and prepare and never sell, you’re gonna be outta business before you even make any money and pay for the legal fees.
[01:12:01] Ann: And things can change. Things change, yes. When you start getting out there and marketing your product, like I know Josh, you’ve had evolutions. I’ve had evolutions and I have had never met a business owner, any entrepreneur who hasn’t pivoted their business and at least either small way and most often in a pretty significant way. Um, and so it’s just something to think.
[01:12:21] Josh: That’s a great point. Well, and pivoting may be rebranding the name like I did the web designer pro rebranding the offer. It may be selling a business like I did within transit studios. It may be exiting a business if you’re just done with the industry. It, there’s a lot of different things that could happen, so I do, I do feel like, I don’t know if there’s an ideal time to take the legal stuff seriously, whether it’s revenue based.
[01:12:43] Josh: I, I do feel like if you are getting serious about a business, in my mind, my recommendation as somebody who’s not a lawyer, but somebody who’s been in business for 14, almost 14 years, you, you should definitely think about getting this stuff in place a few years in, especially if you start Yeah, definitely some money.
[01:12:59] Ann: I would say, you know, my, my rough estimate I would say to really take all this legal stuff seriously is when you’re making. If I were to say, if you’re making like a consistent income of $5,000 a month, you need to start thinking about all this legal stuff much more seriously. Um, and so for, I think for a lot of people, that could be a year in, that could be two years in.
[01:13:19] Ann: Like I don’t know exactly where that falls, but like those are general benchmarks to think about, um, of trying to think about whether you need to set up an L L C, whether you need to really look at your taxes. Like, um, having a good trust in the states and wills plan in case anything happens. Like, you know, something to think about.
[01:13:39] Josh: We gotta become business adults at some point. I guess that’s the moral of the story. Yeah. And is there is any tagline for you, Anne, you will help people become business adults? Um, there we go. And we’re ready to rock. Well, and thank you so much. This was, Legal, a legal talk that was fun. Can you believe it?
[01:13:56] Josh: Everybody? This was great. And we’ll make sure we have everything, uh, linked to your site over at Powerhouse. That’s legal. We’ll have all the, the show notes linked here for this episode. So, uh, can’t wait to see you here. We’re recording this at the end of March, but I’ll see you here, uh, next month in Pro.
[01:14:11] Josh: So, Ann, thank you for your time. Maybe we’ll have another follow up discussion to get further into some of the, uh, entity stuff or. Or, or whatever you’re, whatever you’re pivoting towards in the future as well. So yeah, thank you for your time today.
[01:14:24] Ann: Thanks Josh
[01:14:28] Josh: well, there we go, friends, there we have it. A fun, engaging and a dare I say, empowering conversation about the legals of website design. Uh, and, uh, I think you’ll agree with me in saying that she is awesome. I just absolutely love her approach. It’s very counterintuitive to the majority of lawyers that I’ve met in my experience.
[01:14:48] Josh: And, uh, I really am so happy and glad that she’s in my corner now as my preferred lawyer for all things web design. So again, we just talked about this, but, uh, she is going to be doing a live pro training in Web Designer Pro, that’s my online web design community, uh, in April here of 2023. It’s, uh, so if you’re catching this right during the week this episode comes out, you can join us in pro to watch that live.
[01:15:12] Josh: If you join after April 18th when she’s doing the presentation, you can always watch the replay. But I would encourage you to join because you can ask her the questions live that you have with setting up your business and refining your business correctly. Again, I recommend checking Anne out. You can go to her website, powerhouse legal.com.
[01:15:29] Josh: You can also search at Powerhouse Legal on the socials to connect with her. Let her know you heard this episode on the Web Design Business podcast. Let her know what you think of it. And we did mention a ton of resources in this episode, including some resources that she’s gonna have for you guys that are free, that you can check out.
[01:15:46] Josh: Those will all be linked at the show notes for this firstname.lastname@example.org slash 2 5 4. So head there after this. Thanks for joining. See you on the next episode.