[00:00:00] Hans: The moment you say no is well, yet again, a reiteration of you being honest. Um, but also I am shocked how many times when you decline someone in a sales process, how much more interest did they become in working with you? Because like, and I think what it it just speaks to is just building that trust.

[00:00:17] Hans: When you’re saying no to people, they, and they’re expecting you to say, yes, I’ll do anything for you. You, they’re gonna turn back and be like, did this person just tell me no? Like, now I just wanna work with them even more. So, and, and that gives you not dominance. It puts you on the same level as them where you can respect each other.

[00:00:33] Hans: When you have respect for each other, you have the highest chances of having a successful project launch.

[00:00:41] Josh: Well, hello friend. Great to have you here for this episode of the Web Design Business podcast, where I’m so excited to bring on one of my good friends in the web design and WordPress industry.

[00:00:51] Josh: A repeat guest, Hans Skillrud, who you may know as somebody from behind the tool Termageddon. Termageddon, if you don’t know, is my preferred auto generating privacy policy generator, and it’s what I recommend. It’s what my agency uses. This episode though, we’re actually not gonna talk at all about privacy.

[00:01:11] Josh: We’re gonna shift gears in this one, because I found out more recently that Hans actually has a very interesting backstory and a journey and a path that’s led him Tordon when it comes to sales. And I’ve always appreciated Hans’s approach to marketing Tordon and growing the business. And a lot of that has to do with how he sells, which is just very organic, very down to earth, not pushy, not salesy.

[00:01:34] Josh: So in through this entire conversation, we’re really uncovering how to sell without being salesy. So if you like the sound of that, I think you’re really gonna like this conversation with Hans. Not only is he just such a cool dude, but his past going from, um, being in some companies doing sales. And also, as you’ll hear, I didn’t find out until I talked with him in this episode that his very first sales experience was selling a drinking device for college students.

[00:02:02] Josh: You heard that, right? So I feel like if you can sell that, you can sell anything. That’s exactly, uh, what Hans learned to do, and he really does share some incredible tactics and just easy tips to implement the next time you’re on a sales call or, or at a sales meeting. So, without further ado, here is Hans from Tordon.

[00:02:18] Josh: We’re gonna talk selling without being salesy. Heck yes. Enjoy the episode. I’ll follow up with you at the end of this episode, uh, with some links that I recommend checking out. But for now, here’s Hans.

[00:02:34] Josh: Really, I wanted to have you on because you, well. I love talking with you. I feel like we are cut from the same cloth. Uh, not only are you behind one of my favorite tools in term mageddon for privacy policies, but come to find out, you have a pretty interesting backstory to that you were on. So one of my students, Danny had a podcast, I think they’re taking a break, but it was the People You Should Know podcast, and I saw we interviewed you.

[00:02:58] Josh: So I listened to that and I had no idea that you had such an interesting sales background for like Groupon, right? Is that Yeah, where it started?

[00:03:05] Hans: Yeah. I kind of started, well prior, well, I actually never share this one, but I’ll, I’ll go ahead and share it here. Uh, I patented a drinking device, uh, prior to Groupon. Um, and, and I trust me, I’m a different person these days. But back in the day, I, I had sold a, a novelty drinking device to college kids, which is it? The beer hat?

[00:03:26] Hans: It’s basically that, but for shots and chasers. Um, yeah. Called a shot bong. It was like a beer bong for, it’s like a mini beer bong for shots and chasers. You take the shot, the chaser comes right after all you taste is the chaser. And that was kind of my pitch. Like, you can take a shot of the worst alcohol and chase it with Kool-Aid and you’re never gonna taste it. So. Well,

[00:03:45] Josh: this can also be beneficial too, Hans. You’re quickly becoming, like, every year I feel like I, you become like a better friend because your background is like a interesting onion appeal.

[00:03:54] Josh: Um, so like one of my wife and I had a Irish car bomb. And I love, I love drinks that have a shot that’s not like, oh God, like an Irish car bomb. I don’t know if you’ve had one. They’re, yeah. Delicious. It’s dangerous. Yes. Um, but the glass always like hits you in the teeth. So I’m wondering, like, that sounds like the antidote for, for like not having a little shot glass drilling in the face.

[00:04:16] Josh: Sure. Oh yeah. It would

[00:04:16] Hans: totally work with an Irish car bomb. And yeah, I mean, people would do, you know, vodka with Kool-Aid or whatever. I mean really any combination whiskey and Coke. Uh, but all you tasted the chaser and, and the number one response I got was, this is dangerous. And actually I watched, I saw a YouTube video of a guy kind of abusing the shop bomb, like having way too much to drink from it.

[00:04:35] Hans: And I built every shop bomb with my own hands. And from that moment on, I kind of checked out. I was just like, I don’t wanna be like, everyone has so much fun with it, but I know there’ll be that one person that like, just completely abuses it

[00:04:45] Josh: and it’s a lawsuit waiting to happen, I feel like. Yeah.

[00:04:48] Hans: Not to mention, I just, like, I don’t want anyone to get hurt from something I create, like, I, I wanna do the opposite of that. So yeah, I, I checked out mentally and then I went to Groupon and um, that was when Groupon was, you know, At its infancy stages. Like it was, you know, I, I think it was like employee 99, which sounds like a lot, but they got to 30,000, 12 months later, so, um, I wrote that way. Hold on

[00:05:09] Josh: Hans I’m sorry. We have, I can’t let go of the shot bong thing yet. Of all why shot bong to term term again, founder is not on your website. I don’t know. I feel like that needs to be in the story, but also how did you sell that? Like, that’s, that’s actually honestly really interesting. Like, how do you, I mean, you, so before we get into the Groupon stuff, you’ve had a lot of different experience in sales and a very drastic variety of products. So yeah. How did you sell the shop Bong thing?

[00:05:38] Hans: So, two ways, wholesale and direct. Um, so wholesale, um, I got it into like local liquor stores and things like that. Uh, we trade show, we, we, we debuted it at a trade show in Vegas. Um, and it got a pretty good response. Our booth was quite popular because we were giving out free shots and chasers. And, um, Spencer’s gifts ultimately picked it up. Um, it, it didn’t sell well, unfortunately. Um, and I was in my early, early twenties, I didn’t have a lick of knowledge that I had. I was

[00:06:05] Josh: just wondering how old you were when you were

[00:06:07] Hans: doing all this. Yeah, early twenties. And I just had no business sense. Like I just had, I was really struggling with how does this all work? I had no real prior experience to kind of get me prepped for it. Um, but yeah, Spencer’s gifts picked it up. Um, And then direct. So I went to 50 colleges, 200 fraternities over the course of about six months. In a shot bong, mobile. And I would go into fraternities and say, you’re not gonna taste the liquor.

[00:06:35] Hans: I’d have ’em ta take a normal shot of vodka. They’d almost puke cuz I would buy the cheapest vodka they’d have at the store, like Skull or Camp Chaka or whatever your preferred or whatever the college drink is. And um, and they would take a normal shot and just about Vom and, and then they would try it with a shop on and they couldn’t believe it.

[00:06:53] Hans: They’re like, oh my gosh, I don’t taste it. So it was like a, a Billy maze for liquor. Um, I would say like was my, was my go-to. But, uh, yeah, it was certainly a fun time, you know, 200 fraternities over six months. I, I certainly saw a lot. Um, and yeah, that’s how I sold it. So I, I just sold cash. I mean this, um, Like taking cards through your phone was not a thing. Like iPhone wasn’t a thing yet. Yeah.

[00:07:16] Josh: Did you have to do the paper, like the credit card

[00:07:19] Hans: thing? We, we did cash only. So we had some FRA boys like going running off to the ATMs and coming back with like 60 bucks to get multiples of ‘

[00:07:27] Josh: em and stuff. Yeah. I, I remember in the band days, uh, did, did you know I was in a band like travel rehearsal? So this was before, right before Square became popular. This was like 2005, and we had a merchant account with Chase set up. So to take credit cards on our booth for t-shirts and stuff, we literally had to like run their credit card with a little paper thing that’s like, yeah. And it just has their info there and I had to make sure like, oh, is that a seven or a nine?

[00:07:55] Josh: I can’t tell. But I think back like how unsecure that was. Yeah. We’re like, we got this merch box, money box that sometimes there’s like no one behind the booth and there’s just like, A hundred credit cards, their numbers down. Like somebody could have ran with that. I mean like, oh my God, how we did not get into some serious financial trouble back then.

[00:08:16] Hans: I can’t imagine. I bet, I bet. Like, uh, people stealing credit card and stuff during that time period had to have been rampant.

[00:08:22] Josh: It had to be huge. Yeah. Had be, I can’t believe it didn’t happen to us. Yeah. Honestly. Yeah. No kidding. So you’re taking cash. I mean, what’s interesting about that is you went headfirst into some of the hardest sales. Well, I don’t know, do you think. Of all the ways you’ve sold, was that the hardest way to sell, like direct to like stupid college kids who were drunk or something? Or was that one of the easiest ways to sell?

[00:08:44] Hans: It was definitely one of the easiest sales once I’m there. But, you know, traveling to sell, you know, 20 shops to 50 people, um, and doing it again and again and again, like, it’s, it’s not a profitable model.

[00:08:57] Hans: I mean, maybe if you’re like living super scrappy, but like, it wasn’t, it was more to get the attention out. Um, I would obviously do things different in this day and age, um, but y you know, one thing that it taught me was I had to repeat again and again and again what the Chaong was. And I’ll tell you like the first time I tried to pitch Chaong, it was a nightmare.

[00:09:19] Hans: It would take me like six minutes to like get the whole like what it is, you know? And then as the years progress or as the time progressed and I kept saying again and again, that repetition got your mo I don’t know how to say it other than like your neurons must connect and like figure out how to like just effectively communicate value, um, as quickly as possible.

[00:09:38] Josh: Mean, I think that goes with any service. And, you know, web designers, we often do a lot of different things. So I remember the first couple times I tried to say what I do and sold it was like, well, I do like design and conversion and a little bit of copy seo. I also do video and photography.

[00:09:55] Josh: And they’re like, there’s like 33 things here. I don’t know what to hire you for, but when you’re like, I build websites that convert and get results for clients or whatever, the tighter little, you know, commercial is, it’s like sales 1 0 1. How quickly can you say what you do and, and how you help or what results you get.

[00:10:11] Hans: Absolutely. And yeah, I mean, how much cleaner was that second version that you just shared that like, oh, I want that. Like of course a business is gonna want that, you know, versus like Yeah, kind of like, it’s kinda like the what gets you there is what you were previously describing. Like I do photography, web design, you know, those are things that get you the result to the client and, and what clients need to hear

[00:10:30] Josh: is the results.

[00:10:31] Josh: Oh my gosh. If you can, great lesson for everybody. If you can nail down the result as quickly as possible when a tagline or whatever you say, what you do, you’re in. That’s goal. Yes. Like I, I noticed a big shift in my bus business now with josh hall.co when I changed my tagline to say, I help people build web design businesses that provide freedom and a lifestyle you love.

[00:10:52] Josh: Love it. So it was, and actually I refined it even more recently to, I help web designers build six figure businesses. That gave you freedom and a lifestyle you love. So while you build web design businesses, the result is at least six figures. And the result after you build that is to have the freedom you want and the lifestyle you want. So that sounds pretty simple, but it is taking years to, to get to that point. Isn’t that wild though?

[00:11:15] Hans: Because once you get to that, like climactic, just in a few words, you describe it, it’s like, how does it take so long to get there? But it does, it kind of, it sits in your brain for a while cuz you got so much passion and knowledge of the space. It’s, it’s shockingly difficult to come to, to that conclusion. But now that you have it, it’s just brilliant because like, it makes complete sense to me, you know, curse of

[00:11:35] Josh: knowledge and I’ve, I’ve learned from a lot of entrepreneurs who are established, uh, I’ve, on the podcast I’ve had Pat Flynn, Amy Porterfield, uh, Mike Markowitz was recently on, and they all have very succinct answers to what they do.

[00:11:49] Josh: And I’ve learned from that. And one thing, one reason I often ask that of guests when I ask them, like, when somebody asks you what you do, what do you tell them? It’s, it’s partly because I wanna know what people are saying. It’s also because I want to challenge somebody to like, say, how quickly can they say what they do? Or is it like a, a six minute answer or what this product is. So it’s a great sales tip right up front to condense what you do or how

[00:12:13] Hans: you help That’s true. And think about the

[00:12:15] Josh: result. Yeah, the result. Biggie. So, uh, the result for selling a. Uh, uh, you know, a bong chaser, whatever. I was like, you’re gonna get trash fast. It’s gonna, it tastes good. There it is. You would’ve had a huge business if I was in your quarter back then. You get trash fast and have fun trade.

[00:12:31] Hans: We actually trade, we trademarked, uh, party responsibly. Um, and Corona tried to buy it from us, but again, I was so. Oblivious. I was like, okay, I want a million dollars. Like, they’re like, okay, nevermind. Like, and then the deal was done like, like gotcha. I was just, you know, loose cannon at that time.

[00:12:49] Josh: So, so when you segue into Groupon in its early stages, what was your role there? Um, were you like a salesperson or what was your, what was your role? Groupon. Yeah.

[00:12:57] Hans: So by that time I was, I had shop in, um, Spencer’s Gifts and I started to kind of get a taste for like, bigger deals and like trying to get some big things closed. And I heard about this company called Groupon and um, they’re this tiny little company in Chicago and I was like, oh, we should get shop on, on there. So I submitted Shop on as a deal and they responded. They le they, I think they wrote lol, no way, but this is, this product is awesome. We’re gonna buy some for ourselves or something like that.

[00:13:23] Hans: So, um, it was sur it was shop that got me kind of an intro and, and they told me they were hiring and we got to chatting. And at that time I was really just sitting back waiting for Spencer’s to order again. I wasn’t doing enough with my business and I just kind of, um, The conversation just kind of carried on.

[00:13:38] Hans: And before I knew it, I was applying to be a salesperson. Um, and then that is where I really learned the basics of how to communicate sales, because like naturally, I like to help people. I think every agency owner, it, I feel like almost every single agency owner I’ve met to date and I’ve, I’ve manually interviewed over 6,000.

[00:13:56] Hans: Um, uh, they fundamentally just wanna help people. And, and, but, but sales in my opinion is just like taking that and kind of giving a framework to it so you can effectively communicate what you have to offer. Um, a lot of people think of salespeople as bad people. I, I, sales, sales is not, or it’s people, sales is not bad nor good. It is people that decide to be good or bad, and they use sales to communicate that message. And obviously I think most of us only just wanna work with good people. So

[00:14:26] Josh: I love that you mentioned that because I, I wondered that would come up like, why. Why is sales viewed as slimy? Is it because of like the used car salesman that we typically get in our mind when we think of sales?

[00:14:39] Josh: Or do you think of like, The, the classic like fifties like hustler who’s like, ah, you gotta buy this and this is gonna, you gotta buy this time, da da da da da. Or like the, the whatever. Like, that’s why is it that sales feels just, ugh, icky?

[00:14:54] Hans: Yeah. You know, I don’t have a great answer to that. I, but I do know it exists. Um, especially I feel like before. The internet or something. I feel like back in the day it was even worse. Like you thought of a salesperson’s, like icky or, or trying to take advantage of you. And I think probably movies and television took advantage of that and like kind of portrayed an image that doesn’t technically exist.

[00:15:14] Hans: I do think there are slimy people that use sales to take advantage of people, but the vast majority of people I’ve met on this earth actually just wanna help people out. And they use sales to help them, like to help. Understand what their problems are and understand if your, what you have to offer is a good fit for them.

[00:15:30] Hans: Like, and I feel like that’s a great way to find a good salesperson from a bad person is like when they’re advising not to do things like, Hey, I don’t know about you. Like whenever I get like work done on my house, whenever I have a contractor coming in and I’m asking about somebody, he is like, no, that’s too expensive.

[00:15:45] Hans: You wanna, you should consider this. Like that honesty is like what wins people over. So that’s why I think sales is a good thing. You just gotta make sure you work with the right person who like does care about, like what matters for you.

[00:15:57] Josh: So yeah. And maybe that comes from like the consumer boom and like the forties and the fifties maybe when, I don’t know, as I think about it now, have you ever watched Mad Men?

[00:16:09] Josh: The show about? Oh, just a few episodes. Okay. So the further it gets into it, one reason I love that show is because it really gets into like the, the business of advertising through the sixties and how it evolves and changes. And it does go from the like fifties consumer where like everyone’s at home, they want nice new things and people just start materializing more than they had in the previous generation.

[00:16:32] Josh: And then, and people had money, quite frankly. Whereas like in the thirties, it was very different for the average American. And then at the tail end of the sixties, you can see like a younger generation being a little burned out by that, and things shift a little bit. So I just kind of wonder if like, what happened in those days we’re still feeling the rippling effects of, of like, you just need to buy this and you need to buy it now.

[00:16:51] Josh: You’ll be happy kind of thing. Um, yeah. Yeah. I don’t know. That’s a good, I don’t wonder if there, yeah. I don’t know. And I’m just thinking out loud as to why sales, because I feel this, all web designers feel this in particular. So I think this is a thing for creatives. It’s like, I wanna build something. I will, I wanna build websites.

[00:17:08] Josh: But if you’re not gonna be the person to go out there and sell them, you’re gonna have to sell them. But like, yeah, you’re gonna have to do it unless you’re gonna hire somebody. So sales is a very important part of being able to be a web designer. Um, but to your point, one, the way I look at it now, I look at sales as.

[00:17:27] Josh: Education like the more, and the guys from Base Camp talked about this in their book, rework. They out educate their competition. They don’t sell hard, they just out educate, share ideas. And it’s one of my tips for my students when they go to like networking groups or they’re in an online virtual meeting or something, is if you can just share ideas and inspire people, you’ve already, that’s it.

[00:17:47] Josh: You’ve done the hard work of selling. You don’t need to be like, you need to buy this package and you need it now kind of thing.

[00:17:52] Hans: Yeah, I completely agree. That’s exactly how I ran my agency, which was just be as transparent as humanly possible because the reality is they are talking with you because they know you have expertise that you don’t, they don’t have.

[00:18:05] Hans: And like just lay out what they need to do to be successful and be like, you know, I’d be happy to help you with this if you want my help. And it’s like, Okay, let’s do it. You know, and it’s sometimes just as that easy. It’s like you just listen to the problem and you really gotta get down to the root of the problem, because how many, how many times have we had clients come to us and say, I want the prettiest website in the world.

[00:18:24] Hans: But until you, once you drill down enough, you find out no, they want more leads. And if they dump all their money into their new beautiful website, they’re gonna have $0 to spend to drive traffic towards it, for example. You know? Yeah. And, and that’s such a good example of like, you know, getting down to the root of the problem.

[00:18:39] Hans: And so, and it’s just like doctors how, like patients will come to doctors and think they know what they need, but it’s a doctor’s job to actually diagnose and identify what symptoms drive. Like where is the original issue residing, and how do I fix that?

[00:18:53] Josh: Um, that’s a good point. I never thought about it like that.

[00:18:56] Hans: Yeah, it’s a, and I think that’s a lot like web design. It’s like a lot of people think they know what they need and. Do you kind of need to be that helping hand to either validate that fact or, or maybe provide some alternative ideas on ways to think about things, uh, with, with regard to the website.

[00:19:12] Josh: And I found that in sales meetings too, if you, if you listen first and you’ll get all the pain points and challenges and you find out like, oh actually they think they want this, but they actually want this.

[00:19:22] Josh: If you share that and you share why, they’re like, oh my gosh, I never thought about that. Suddenly the trust factor has grown tremendously cuz you do, before you convert, you do need to build trust. You need to connect some way so they’re in the sales process regardless of what it looks like. You do have to build some sort of trust and authority and then before you actually convert them.

[00:19:44] Josh: Agreed. Um, which we can dive into that further. I’m actually kinda curious real quick though, with Groupon. What was your sales training like? Like did they teach you that process or did they teach you hard selling cold calls? What did that look

[00:19:55] Hans: like? It was straight cold calling and Oh. Um, and granted, you know, I have my reasons for why I left Groupon.

[00:20:01] Hans: It’s probably how people currently remember Groupon, but I remember Groupon very differently at the beginning. When it first started out, I felt like it was far more special. It was 24 hours. There has to be a minimum amount of people that all join in. I felt like it was a very social, a great social experiment to drive traffic and awareness of your brand, and it was only, it was a small deal.

[00:20:21] Hans: Um, and so that’s what I’ve been into. That’s what convinced me to go work there. Um, again, that changed over time, but, um, but yes, the sales training, I call it a world class sales training. What I was given because I was given a script that I had to basically memorize, which sounds like, oh, boiler point, this is so sketchy.

[00:20:37] Hans: Yeah. What the script forced me to do was kind of take away from my confidence levels. Cause I was confident that I knew how to, you know, talk to people and like help them get set up with things. And it, it forced me into like learning the dance of sales, which there is a dance and you kind of just acknowledge it.

[00:20:54] Hans: It’s like the first part is listening. Like if you don’t know what you’re offering, if you don’t know how to help someone, what’s the point of talking? Like, you need to understand where they’re coming from and like what, what their pain points are and how to acknowledge those pain points. Um, it was, um, acknowledge, respond, ask.

[00:21:09] Hans: That was the three things that I was taught. Whenever someone, when you’re talking, you’re sharing your thoughts and then a prospect comes back and is like, well, you know, I’m not really interested because of this, this, this. Your first job is to acknowledge whatever the response was, you, you need to let acknowledging ensures that we are, you validate that we’re both on the same level.

[00:21:30] Hans: We’re both talking about the same thing. Because sometimes you’ll acknowledge and they’re like, no, that’s not what I meant. So you, you wanna first make sure you’re on the same page and you do that by just basically reiterating what they just said. And then you respond and you give them perspective on ways they may not be seeing it currently.

[00:21:47] Hans: And then you ask, meaning you bring it into their hands to care, keep the conversation going and like, yeah, ask some questions that keep them engaged, wanting to keep talking with you. And if done correctly, and by correctly I mean like if you’re genuine with it, like if you like genuinely don’t understand where they’re coming from and like you, you’re trying to get down to the bottom of it, you’re gonna win trust. Um, because you’re acknowledging, you’re responding, then you’re asking, well, no

[00:22:10] Josh: wonder you’re successful with term again. And so fast in the grand scheme of things, because you did like the two hardest. Sales journeys, experiences right up front. You did like in-person, boots on the ground, probably not ideal customer type, non-profitable business selling with a actual product and then you went into cold calling. So I imagine sales, after all that probably felt like a bit of a piece of cake. Yeah,

[00:22:37] Hans: I will see Termageddon, sales has been a lit, quite a bit different from my other co uh, careers. Um, and that’s just because with term, again, I just wanna create something that was bothering me. Like it was, it, it was just painful working with the other generators out there for multiple reasons.

[00:22:52] Hans: And I was just like, I’m just tired of copying legal documents for my clients, you know, and, and turns out I’m not the only one doing this. This turns out this is like an industry-wide issue where web designers are copying legal documents for their clients and just pretending all is okay. And I’m just like, this is a ticking time bomb waiting to drop.

[00:23:10] Hans: And, and so I think I would turn again, I just got lucky where, turns out the problems that I was trying to solve for myself are, were like global problems. I, I don’t have any other way to say that. I just feel lucky with it. So. Well, and I

[00:23:22] Josh: will say one thing I’ve always appreciated about Hans, with how you sell this, the, your services with Termageddon and the privacy policy auto generating updaters is, or auto updating generators is you could 100% fall into the like, fear monering. Yes. With that. Yes. You could be like, you could get sued. So protect yourself now and now would ha

[00:23:44] Josh: I would probably not want to have you on, but yeah, you have come across it with a very, like, we just wanna help people. And you’ve said yourself, I think we, you’ve been on the podcast, uh, that twice now, and I think both times you’ve said, we just want to respect people’s privacy.

[00:23:58] Josh: And we wanna make sure that web designers are safe and their clients are safe too. Like we wanna make sure it’s a win-win, win all around. So, absolutely. I, from what I gather, it seems like your sales approach has so perfectly led you to run term mageddon and, and sell it in like a nice, genuine, warm way versus cold again, like the fear of mony, like you could get sued if you don’t have this product, you’re probably gonna get sued.

[00:24:22] Josh: It’s the same approach that I took with maintenance plans. Instead of telling clients, look, if you don’t pay me every month to update this, you’re gonna get hacked. Yeah. Do you wanna get hacked? If you don’t wanna get hacked, then pay me every month. That is not the way, and I teach this in my maintenance plan course.

[00:24:36] Josh: You do not wanna sell like that. You wanna say, look, these are like real issues that can come up and we have seen clients get hacked. That’s why we wanna be in your corner. And there’s a much more warm way to go about and focus on the, the good. Um, acknowledge what can happen. And you guys do, you do same?

[00:24:52] Josh: Websites are getting sued, businesses are getting sued. Fine. Yeah. Fine. Yeah. Is there a difference between fine and sued? There

[00:24:58] Hans: is, yeah. Fine means the government finds you and tho that’s currently actively happening, uh, primarily in the EU right now. Um, but sued is like when a consumer. Just literally sues you. And that is being proposed on a per state basis where, you know New Yorkers will be able to sue any website owner for collecting as little as an email address on a contact

[00:25:19] Josh: form. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. I didn’t realize there was a distinction there. That’s great. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:23] Hans: But no, no, you’re, you’re on the same, you’re on the right, yeah. You’re talking my language here and, and I appreciate it. And, and you know, just to kind of echo tho those thoughts a little bit like. We actually, we always say like, if your client can hire an attorney to draft policies and keep ’em up to date over time, awesome. Nothing beats having an attorney do this stuff.

[00:25:40] Hans: Like I’m the first one to advocate for that. It’s just like if your client doesn’t have those types of funds that, you know, we would love to be considered as a potential solution, uh, to keep ’em up to date. But I just don’t, I feel like the, the line in the sa I feel like since we last talked, the line in the sand that I’ve mentally wrapped my head around recently is that I just feel like web agencies should no longer copy legal documents for their clients and pretend all is good or think to themselves, my client’s too small to have to comply with privacy laws cuz like there are one person companies being fined.

[00:26:09] Hans: So like why make that decision? Like, you know, we have our waiver, as I’m sure you’ve talked, we’ve shared. To this community many times. But like things like a waiver can just educate clients so they understand it’s their responsibility to comply with laws and let them make the decision if they wanna have policies or not.

[00:26:24] Hans: And I always say it’s okay if they don’t want policies, they’re a business owner, they get to make that decision. Um, but web agencies shouldn’t make that decision on behalf of the client, cuz I don’t think that’s gonna be a good long-term strategy for the agency. And I guess, I guess I’m selling right now, but it’s just because I genuinely believe this. And that’s, that’s why I think,

[00:26:41] Josh: and that comes through selling, that comes through even with what you said right there, that did not sound like a sales pitch. Yeah. You, you could view that as selling, but it was like an honest. Integral. Like this is, this is why, and this is what I’m feeling. I also think it helps that you came from the world of web design.

[00:26:56] Josh: Yes. And you were an agency owner. Yeah. Um, you talked about re relatability a little bit ago and making some sort of connection. And when it comes to web design in particular, I think most everybody has probably at some point got a quote for a web design. Or maybe you haven’t, but most people, uh, like weren’t a web designer and they’re like, what A website’s $3,000.

[00:27:17] Josh: Then you become a web designer and you’re like, what website’s only only $3,000? Uh, so, but I say that to say like, that’s so true. When you, when you talk with clients, you can be like, oh my gosh. I know. Like, I remember, like, I remember yeah, feeling like this was crazy, but there’s a lot more aspects to it and here’s why.

[00:27:36] Josh: And, uh, one with this topic of like staying away from things that are too negative or the fear mongering, it is important. To say like, if you don’t do this, here are the potential consequences, but you don’t wanna stay there long, right? Like, yes. I, I don’t know how much you think about this, but you, do you try to make a sales call bright, warm, cheery, and empowering as much as possible?

[00:27:59] Josh: Like what, uh, I guess what’s the balance? What’s the balance between keeping things warm and, but also keeping it real and sharing some of the things that may not happen they don’t have?

[00:28:07] Hans: Yeah, that’s a great, that’s a great one. And I, I guess I just kind of think instantly about like, okay, I get on a call with a new agency partner of Termat and like, I think it’s always, for me, it always starts with where they’re coming from.

[00:28:19] Hans: Like, what’s the tone? How are they talking to me? Are they very direct people? Are they very friendly? Are they funny? And I kind of just like, go with that. Like, okay, you wanna be serious? I’ll, I’ll, I kind of think to myself, I’ll be serious today. I act very direct and uh, and I very, you know, I’m very.

[00:28:35] Hans: Um, I’m not as funny as I’d like to be, but I, I’m like, okay, I gotta, I wanna respect them. Like they, they just wanna be very business-like. And so I would say for me it kind of, it’s like a dance. It starts the moment. They start giving you clues on like how they’re at feeling for that day. And from there where, where I think it is, and I don’t know if this is like too advanced to sales, but like for me, if you like, Stepping back and thinking about it.

[00:28:57] Hans: It’s almost like the moment in agency’s like, oh, I’m gonna make all my clients sign up with term again. I’m gonna force them to sign up with term again. I actually more so try to bring them back to like, Hey, like, and I always started with a joke, like, as much as I would love for you to, you know, force your clients to sign up with term, again, what I really think you need to do here is consider just ensuring you get documentation that you told your clients they need policies and let them be the one to decide that stuff.

[00:29:21] Hans: Yeah. And so like, I, I guess I would say I take ex like when in sales conversations, I take people from extremes, like, and try to bring them into a path that I, I think will be fruitful for them usually.

[00:29:33] Josh: Well, I can tell you this, uh, because in my maintenance plan course, one of the things I share as, as what to put in the packages as a bonus, as an upsell is term mageddon.

[00:29:42] Josh: And the way my students are utilizing it is it is a value add. Yep. So they don’t, like, their clients aren’t signing up, foraged their agency partners with you. And it is a very nice value add because when they sell their maintenance plans, it’s like not only are we optimizing the site, updating plug-ins, caring for it, doing basic updates, but we’re also ensuring that you have up-to-date privacy policies and we take care of that.

[00:30:06] Josh: I e you guys are taking care of that. Mm-hmm. Because they embedded on this. So it’s a nice upsell. So it’s a service. I, it’s a good, I think lesson in that you can take a service and you can make it. Appealing in some way as an upsell or a bonus or something like that. Um, which you could do with a variety of different tools and web design.

[00:30:27] Hans: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, the pricing, when we figured out pricing for term, again, I basically used WP Engines pricing. I looked at how much I pay them and what their like normal pricing is, and like basically did some math and I was like, okay, that’s what that, for anyone that’s interested, that’s why we charged $38 and 40 cents per license. It was just randomly figured out from a, a WP engine calculation I made.

[00:30:49] Josh: Selling, selling as an upsell. A bonus, yes. Okay.

[00:30:52] Hans: So, yeah, I, without a doubt, I built term, again, really with the mindset of, I think a lot of agencies are gonna incorporate this into their maintenance plans. So I want it to be as maintenance plan or care plan friendly as possible. So like that definitely was a goal. Um, fast forward to today, though, I do have a slight, I, I’m much more of, um, uh, I’m much more of an advocate of at least considering treating term, again, as a standalone value add item.

[00:31:18] Hans: Where it’s like, Hey, it’s 99 bucks a year and I’m gonna charge a hundred dollars setup fee, or $200 setup fee. Um, and my thought with it lately has been that clients sometimes drag their feet to get their policies created. Who would’ve guessed that’s not the most exciting thing in the world to do.

[00:31:33] Hans: Shocker. Um, so if you treat it as a standalone item and they actually pay out of pocket, they tend to be more motivated to like, go in and get everything set up. Mm gotcha. That’s like a new that that’s, you know, after talking with so many agencies and getting feedback, so, so yes, absolutely. Re implementing into the rec your maintenance plan. That is why I built term gun. So

[00:31:53] Josh: very, but I guess with that PE clients do leave care plans sometimes. Sure. So I guess you wouldn’t want the privacy policy to go along with it, uh, unless that’s more of a, like a liability clause that says, by the way, like a disclosure. Hey, heads up. Um, if you leave the care plan also, you’re not gonna have your privacy policies as well. You can do that on your own, but we won’t be able to manage that for you. So yeah, and you can

[00:32:16] Hans: sell, you can and, and with a client cancellation process, like you can handle it however you wish, but for the record, for any agency partners listening, um, you can, um, have the client pay term and again, directly, and then you’ll receive recurring commissions for the lifetime of that sale.

[00:32:28] Hans: And then you can utilize that license for another client, or we can just cancel that license. So if you could get some affiliate commissions, if you have the client paid directly, um, and I, I, we, we handle those, um, when they, whenever they happen, um, or you know, you can just say, Hey, you know, with your maintenance plan, you don’t get aged anymore, you know,

[00:32:45] Josh: yeah. Uh, off topic, but, um, a little bit ago you mentioned. Kind of getting the feel for somebody like a dance. You want to try to match their energy in some way. One thing I learned in sales, and I still, still applies to now particularly, it’s interesting because if I ever sell now, it’s never on a call. Um, but I do sometimes in a way sell through dms on social media cuz somebody may have a question about a course or they’re like, Hey Josh, I’m really interested, but I just have a few questions.

[00:33:12] Josh: And I still apply these, these tactics of uh, I guess kind of matching and mirroring, and I know there’s different versions of that in the corporate world. Did you ever do any training on that about how to like, take key phrases or keywords from somebody if they express their challenges and I you kind of matched that in a way or, or mirror that? No. Was there, did you ever do official training on

[00:33:32] Hans: that? I haven’t. Um, but, but I will note something that I wanted to me make sure I mention today, which I think is applicable here. Which is that I would, with obviously their consent, the consent of the prospect, I would get their permission to record sales calls, um, where I actually have them like, tell me all of their problems, like, tell me everything.

[00:33:51] Hans: And I would record it and then refer back to it when I’m putting the proposal together. Oh my gosh. It’s also when proposal includes their verbiage and like how they say things. Oh my gosh. Like you’re like gonna be closing like 99% plus, I

[00:34:06] Josh: feel like, oh, that’s beautiful. It’s beautiful. Hans, also that is website copy because you can look at like, yes. They’ll often, clients will often share. And it, if sometimes it’s their business challenges, but often they’ll share their customer business challenges.

[00:34:23] Josh: Yeah. And they didn’t even know it was locked in their brain. But then you can share that and say, look at this transcript. You just laid out like beautiful content for their service pages. Because you just shared your customer problem. You didn’t even know it. Oh, I can’t recommend that enough. What a great, uh, oh

[00:34:37] Hans: yeah. I’m so happy to hear you like that. Cause it, it’s a, there’s a, it’s a divisive one. Some agencies are like, oh, that’s ridiculous. That’s so intrusive. And I’m like, well, if you get their consent and you’re, you’re helping them, like you’re, because there would be so many times I re-listened to that recording and there were parts that like my brain just did not process in the meeting at

[00:34:56] Josh: what I would, I would say too, like, For anyone who is hesitant to record a call or they feel like their clients are hesitant, just say, um, I’d like to record this just so we can refer back to it. It’ll help us get all the deliverables and pain points in, in place, uh, and we’ll make sure we don’t miss anything.

[00:35:11] Josh: Yeah. Uh, but it’s not gonna be shared. It won’t be on the web design business podcast. Yeah. You know, like it’s, it’s, it’ll just, it’s for internal use and, and we’ll be able to utilize it because the worst thing you can do is have an hour long call and freaking forget everything you just talked about. Yes.

[00:35:27] Josh: Which can happen, especially if you’re in a meeting in a restaurant and then you get the shot bong afterwards and forget everything. You know what I mean? You can very quickly forget everything we just talked about, which I honestly, honest to honest happened a couple times. I had like bar uh, meetings with clients, like we’d have a few drinks after and afterwards I’m like, shit, what are we, what was, what was the big problem you had?

[00:35:51] Hans: So, no, I, I hear you. Um, You know, I, I guess I never did bar sales meetings. I, I feel like I do decent in that type of setting.

[00:36:00] Josh: it’s the best place to close the best conversion rates. Not great for planning the project, but great to convert.

[00:36:08] Hans: Nice. I, yeah, I could be somewhat fearful of what I would be saying on a recorded line in a bar, but Yeah.

[00:36:14] Hans: You wouldn’t

[00:36:15] Josh: record it there. Yeah. But that’s just, it’s just an honest take on like why it’s good to record a sales call. Yes. Because you can utilize it for, for, oh my gosh. It’s also a, I had a student of mine who was on the podcast a while back, who recorded a call and she used that to identify her ideal customer avatar.

[00:36:33] Josh: Wow. Like she interviewed a perfect client for a sales call and then, That client really laid out like all the challenges and she was like, oh, all the challenges I thought I should address were not even close to being what they actually wanted help with as a web designer for this niche. I think it was like people presenting, uh, like keynotes and stuff for her clients.

[00:36:51] Josh: So, oh, you just hit on another

[00:36:52] Hans: thing. Niches. Um, I wanted to make sure I talk about that today as well with the agency days. I’m sorry, we kind of skipped group Groupon. We can do Groupon two, but um, with niches like that is one thing I wish I did with my agency, and I’ll give you an example with aged, like, there’s probably about 200 questions we get.

[00:37:09] Hans: From our customers and not a single one more. And, and that might sound like a lot, but like those 200 questions I’ve had memorized for years now, like I know exactly how to say it. Inside, outside, backwards, forwards. Like, I can, I can help people at an alarmingly much faster rate than I thought I could.

[00:37:25] Hans: And, and talk like that is one of the secret benefits nitching down is like the types of concerns, goals, uh, you know, everything that these prospects have when you’re doing a niche type business model, um, you are gonna be able to just walk all over them because like, you’ll not, not a batt I that came, came out wrong.

[00:37:44] Hans: Like, oh no, it’s, you’ll be able to help them as fast as possible because you’ve, you’ve heard this issue before and you know how to address it. So yeah, you’ll

[00:37:51] Josh: have, you’ll have the information right at your disposal and not be like, Hmm, I don’t know what hairstylists are Googling. I have no idea. But if you’re like, exactly. Here are the problems with privacy policies and websites. Yeah.

[00:38:03] Hans: I, I, yeah. So if I were to, like, I always say like, if, if I sell term again, I’ll probably run an agency again. Cause I was, if I didn’t meet Donata, so Donatos my wife, she’s the brains of term again, the attorney, blah, blah, blah. You’re just the pretty face

[00:38:16] Josh: of the business.

[00:38:17] Josh: Yeah, yeah. I’m

[00:38:17] Hans: sure. Yeah. That’s what I’m best known for. I got a face for radio.

[00:38:21] Josh: Um, so I was gonna say, you got a face for a podcast, hon. You gotta podcast it up on the next business.

[00:38:26] Hans: Um, we, sorry, throwing that off. It’s alright. Um, but yeah, if I were to redo the agency life again, um, I would have a regular just, uh, servicing all type of people, agency website, and then a separate niche website where I’m, I’m focused in on a niche that I’m passionate about. Um, and, and that’s how I would do it if I did it again, if that

[00:38:47] Josh: interests you. One thing I’ve learned too, Because sales is very different with the business I run now with courses and, uh, membership versus services, like building a website for somebody and taking care of them. Sales is so different.

[00:39:01] Josh: There’s pros and cons to each. But one thing I’ve learned is that ba, most of my job that I do day-to-day with podcasting and coaching and content marketing and stuff is mainly building authority. So I don’t need, when I, when somebody asks me a question, if I get that DM and somebody’s like, I’m really interested, Josh and Web Center Pro your community, but I just have a few questions.

[00:39:23] Josh: It’s very likely that they already know, like, and trust me, there’s just a few things we need to iron out to help them. I don’t wanna say persuade them because maybe it’s not even a great fit. And I’m fine to admit like, you know what? Come here like in a, in a year, like, do this first and then come, maybe we’re here.

[00:39:39] Josh: Cause I don’t want it to be a burden on you to, to join. Yeah. I want it to get outta your comfort zone, but I don’t want you to like, you know, like sell your house to join Web Designer Pro. So I say that to say I, building trust and authority looks very different now than it did as a service business. So one question I have for you, Hans, is how do you build that trust and authority fast?

[00:39:57] Josh: If you’re in like an hour sales call and you need to build a little trust, likeability, authority, and then you gotta close, ideally by the end. How do you condense that? Um,

[00:40:07] Hans: so it, I mean it’s all about transparency and honesty. It is truly, um, hearing out what the client needs. Making sure you acknowledge that and like regur, like regurgitate, like reiterate what they said and making sure you’re getting on their level.

[00:40:21] Hans: And then providing the spice of life. Like what may, you know, what, what is it that you do that could be of assistance to them that could help them achieve that goal. And when you’re doing it from a place of honesty, you have, there is no sales. Like there’s, uh, that’s so weird. There is no, there is no feeling like selling selling

[00:40:38] Josh: right now. Hold on. There’s, there is no selling, there is no, there is sales, but there’s no selling. Yeah,

[00:40:43] Hans: yeah, exactly. Cuz I think the word selling draws up this connotation that doesn’t exist when you’re just being yourself at your purest form. And, and I, I would say that’s what I was with term again, I mean, we name the damn company Tordon.

[00:40:55] Hans: I, I honestly didn’t think any anyone would sign up, but with Tordon I was just, I just wanna be myself and just all day, every day I get to talk like myself and share my thoughts and, and just do that. And that allows you to run very quickly cuz you’re not building a web of lies or misconceptions or confusion and stuff.

[00:41:12] Hans: You’re, you’re just being yourself. So you have nothing to fear, you know, and maybe that’s a good takeaway too. It’s just don’t get caught up in what you think you should be, act how you should be acting just. Focus on just being yours. Don’t focus on being yourself. Just be yourself. Just be yourself and then, and that way the people who say yes, they signed up with you for who you are as a person. So you don’t have to put on an act for three months building out their site. Like just be yourself forever after.

[00:41:38] Josh: So great segue. I did, I’m glad you mentioned this cuz I almost overpassed it. I don’t, I don’t want to, I wanna circle back around to the idea of like matching energy, but not. Being fake. Yes.

[00:41:48] Josh: Which is very difficult sometimes, like you said, sometimes you’re a little more serious. I can’t imagine that I, that’ll be really interesting to see serious Hans, whereas you and I are very lively and back and forth usually like we have, but we have very similar energy. So like I feel like if I was buying, which I have bought something from you aged so.

[00:42:04] Josh: It was an easy sell for me and I feel like if I sold a coaching or course program to you, you’d probably be like, I like Josh, he’s gonna buy my bong product and he’ll teach me web design. Yeah, let’s do it. But for people who are very, very different, this is where it’s tricky. So one question I have from your experience and all your different sales ventures is how can you be yourself but still match the energy of somebody else without being that like fake person? Cuz we can spot fake a mile away. So yeah, how do you do that? So

[00:42:35] Hans: if, yeah, that’s a good one. I think about my wife Dona. So Donato was not born a salesperson that’s for darn sure. Um, she doesn’t really, she doesn’t understand. She’s just very logical and very put together. But when she gets on a phone with someone, she’s competent.

[00:42:50] Hans: She knows what she’s talking about, and, and she can provide that insight. Um, so, and she, I think she’s gotten very good at being able to hear like people’s challenges and then being able to acknowledge it and respond to it. So I would say even if you’re not like this silly, funny, what by person, you can be yourself and just still stick to that concept of just making sure you understand where someone’s coming from.

[00:43:11] Hans: When they’re talking with you. Respond accordingly with like, how you think they may be misunderstanding something or maybe they don’t have the exact goal that they thought they had in mind. Um, and then just proceed that way. You can still repeat this type of model. It’s just that maybe your tolerance level may not be as vast as someone who’s more of a natural, like quote unquote salesperson who can more so like kind of get on board with how people act and behave in other areas.

[00:43:36] Hans: Um, don’t think of it as a bad thing. Like, okay, maybe you’re not, like, maybe there’s like a small margin where like a small salesy type person could maybe make a couple more sales. Um, but it’s not worth the sacrifice of not just being honest and being like your true self when speaking to people. Well, Anne,

[00:43:52] Josh: in the real quick, in the case of like Donata, if she is. On a call with somebody who’s very logical and maybe is an accountant or a lawyer as well, or something like that. Yeah, they’ll probably hit it off. Oh, they’ll have the nerdiest conversation and they’ll love it. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:44:06] Hans: Yep. That is so true. Like attorneys, whenever attorneys call, like, I’m all right with attorneys, but like attorneys in Donata that are just like, they, they literally speak their own language. I, it’s like crazy. So, um, yeah, you’re, you’re right.

[00:44:18] Hans: And there therein lies, like what we were saying earlier is you’ll find the clients that are gonna work best for you because of you just being yourself during that process. Now, um, there is that a, that kind of conversation that I’ve never actually said out loud, but like, kind of like mirroring how people behave and stuff. I, that’s a delicate one because I don’t. I do not mean like purely mimic someone that Sure. I got weird and awkward,

[00:44:39] Josh: the context that I used it and I’d never had any formal training in that. I did hear about it either. I don’t, and I don’t think it was a divine sales gene in me, but I did unintentionally do this to where if a client said, I want like a modern, clean website, I would hang on modern and clean.

[00:44:58] Josh: Modern and clean. And then I would bring that up at the end. So at the very end of the call, I’d be like, yeah, like regardless of our energy or personality type, I would say. So yeah, the the big goal is I’ll get the proposal ready for you, send it over within 24 hours. The big goal is to give you guys a clean sight that feels modern and fresh and they’ll be like, oh yeah, Josh modern and fresh and clean.

[00:45:17] Josh: Yeah, that’s what I want. They completely forgot they said that Nice in the beginning, like that’s how I used it, was mainly just keywords. And that goes into the proposal on the deliverables when you send it over for the quote. So that’s how I used it as far as kind of a match and mirror. Uh, but I, I wasn’t like doing the same headline nod and using the same lingo at like, you can do a restore a little bit of that if it’s in you, but not much cuz it’s gonna be

[00:45:40] Hans: fake.

[00:45:41] Hans: That’s right. Yeah. It’s good to like, kind of wanna get on someone’s level. Both like, like, um, with the wording you’re using to communicate with each other, but also like, you know, are they using their hands a lot? Are they very calm and restrictive? Like you can. Like to lean on that a little bit, but you don’t wanna just go overboard with it.

[00:45:59] Hans: Um, but yeah, no, being able to like end a conversation by pulling in something that was previously brought up. That’s great stuff. I mean, it reminds me of like, how, how nice it is when you learn someone, when you meet someone for their first time and they share your name and you actually mentally think about their name so that you can say goodbye and reiterate their name, you’ll see their eyes blow up.

[00:46:20] Hans: They’re like, oh my gosh, he remembered my name. Like, I don’t even remember his anymore. Oh no, what’s his name? Yeah. You

[00:46:25] Josh: know, see you later guy.

[00:46:27] Hans: Yeah. Yeah. It’s like the little things, like just remembering someone’s name can just, it can

[00:46:31] Josh: make someone’s day. I do that with neighbors. All the time, because we moved into a new house last year, and there were quite a few times where we’d meet somebody and then halfway through I’m like, ah, crap. I forget their name. And I’ll just, all right. See it. See you later. See you around. Yeah. The next time I see I’m like, Hey, you, uh, yeah.

[00:46:46] Hans: And then, and then two years go by and now it’s too awkward.

[00:46:49] Josh: It’s too awkward. Yeah. And then you try to, you try to creep ’em on Facebook to see if you can find their name or ask somebody. Yeah. Or side tricks. You can actually do this with clients. You, if you honestly forget their name, you could be like, yeah, I was working with, uh, or I was talking with such and such over there. They’re like, oh yeah, Jim. You’re like, yeah, Jim. That’s who got it. It’s Jim. Yeah, that’s a good one. Yep. But on a serious note, if you say somebody’s name way too many times in a sales call, then it’s like, okay.

[00:47:13] Josh: They had some corporate training where they said to say my name 20 times, now I’m irritated. I don’t want to hear my name every freaking two sentences, so I don’t even wanna talk to this person, which that happened recently. I forget. Where was I with that happened recently where I was like, stop saying my name.

[00:47:29] Josh: It’s getting on my nerves. And it was very like, so Josh, if you’re gonna do this, you’re gonna, you’re probably gonna need this. And I’ll tell you what Josh, we’ll do this for you. I’m like, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop saying my name so much. It’s getting on my

[00:47:38] Hans: nerves. Yeah, no, I mean, I think, um, because we are sold to as human beings of this day and age, like with all the ads we see nowadays, like we can spot, like we can smell like kind of gumminess pretty quickly and like I feel like I get that same feeling that when people say my name too many times.

[00:47:55] Hans: It’s like, what? Why? Why are you doing this? And now all of a sudden you’re not actually a part of the conversation. You’re stepping back and thinking about why is this person saying my name so much? So like that’s the worst thing that can happen in sales. And it gets back to like, no one naturally would just be, Hey Hans, it’s a pleasure to meet you, Hans.

[00:48:11] Hans: Hans, I’d really like to show you this new product we have for sale, Hans. Like, no one ever talks like that. So like, no wonder people pick up on that as being annoying, like, or

[00:48:20] Josh: off-putting. So yeah. So now I’m super self-conscious. I’m gonna try not to say your name too much. Oh, Josh, moving forward. Yeah, I am Hans. I’ll tell you what, Hans in Hans, by the way, the next point are you for, um, do you know Tim Stifler with Divvy Life?

[00:48:33] Josh: So yes, Tim famously has said a quote for years, and I, it’s a. When it comes to sales, it honestly, we, we joke about it, but it’s one of the best quotes ever, which is people love to buy, but they hate being sold to, or actually it’s, it’s opposite.

[00:48:49] Josh: People hate being sold to, but people love to buy. And that is true. So the, the real question is, okay, how can we get people to want this without making them feel like they have to buy it? Like, there’s a lot of ways that could go, but I just, I do love that quote in the context of sales. So you don’t have to necessarily feel the burden of like having to sell this, but just explain why it’s gonna help, which kind of ties into everything we’ve talked about to this point with relatability, with trust, authority, and then the result.

[00:49:18] Josh: Like what is the result, what’s the goal of what you’re gonna do? And uh, in the case of people who are numbers oriented, like your wife, Donata, They may need to hear numbers. And they may wanna see concrete figures. Like, so, case in point, um, which this led me to, one thing I wanted to know about, which was, have you ever done disk personality testing?

[00:49:36] Hans: Oh boy. I ha It’s been years. Years. But yes, at one point I’m the same as Mark Twain. I, that’s all I remember though. Oh, I don’t remember that. No. Mark Twain, the author, I, I had the same discourse as what he in theory would

[00:49:48] Josh: have. Oh. Oh, sorry. Okay. I thought Mark Twain was something different. Okay, gotcha. Interesting. Yeah, I mean, I thought it was just a bunch of corporate crap, and then I went through it and I was like, my gosh, this is spot on. Like there really is a difference between dominant personalities versus interactive and calm versus,

[00:50:03] Josh: and then pe the reason I mentioned your wife, Donata is she probably has a very cautious personality in the terms of like, if she’s going to invest, I’m guessing she wants to know the numbers and she wants to make sure it’s going to recoup, like there’s gonna be a return on investment.

[00:50:19] Josh: Most people who are in the lawyer, accountant tax kind of industry, are the bean counters, the they’re in disk dominant, interactive social, or, uh, I think s is something else. Uh, a stable, I think is S and then CS are cautious. You generally have to sell a little bit differently with the cautious people.

[00:50:40] Josh: So, for example, If I’m talking with somebody who’s very numbers oriented, I’m not that way at all. However, I would say if your numbers oriented, let’s look at what this website could do. Let’s say your average customer pays you a thousand dollars a year. Well, if this website costs $10,000, it’s only gonna take 10 customers to recoup that.

[00:51:00] Josh: And then it’s all profit from there. So I learned to like, integrate a little bit of things that are different from me, like outside of what I typically do, but I did learn that some people are different. They have like different cues and different needs to wanna actually convert and move forward.

[00:51:14] Josh: I don’t know, did you pick up anything like that in, in any of your sales journeys about like, picking up on the needs of somebody to help divert them? Basically?

[00:51:24] Hans: Um, I would say I, I received no formal training on it. Um, But you can kind of pick up on the conversation and like what gets them talking and what, what, what do they not respond well to?

[00:51:36] Hans: So if you’re, you know, maybe sharing your screen and showing like some sort of design you made and they’re going, oh, I really like that. You know, okay, you found something that pushes their buttons and like gets them talking. Um, I even think when people kind of express things they don’t like, um, you can pick up a lot about where they come from, but I’ve never had a, like a formal training where it’s like, oh, they said no to this thing, therefore I know they’re more logical, therefore I need to be more logical in my presentation. I’ve never, I’ve never gotten into that level. I, I’ve never thought of it that way.

[00:52:06] Josh: Well, and I just, I don’t, I definitely recommend not taking that too far cuz we get into what we just went through with like the being fake, but Yeah, sure. There, there, it’s funny because when I went through, I went through a business coaching program and when we went through the disc stuff, first of all, the tests nailed me to a t And so probably like the Mark Twain thing with you and.

[00:52:26] Josh: What was funny is I thought about like all the clients who were like, oh my gosh, I have like five clients who are super dominant. They are going to speak very fast, very to the point. They’re gonna talk numbers really quick. And then I had clients who were like, really? They’re high eyes, they’re interactive.

[00:52:43] Josh: They like, they wanna hang out. They’re the ones who might wanna go for a drink after a meeting or wanna do lunch, or they might talk about family more or talk about social stuff. Sometimes the, the numbers aren’t even that big of a deal. They just wanna like who they work with. Then there’s the people who are like, really, if they’re stable, they, they may be like really hesitant to start a new relationship.

[00:53:02] Josh: So there’s like the trust and authority factor that that’s the most important thing to sell. And then there’s the, the, the Cs, the cautious people who are like, I need to make sure before we spend $5,000 that this can make $5,000. Yeah. Very quickly. So I just say that to say like, I, I learned. Over the years, and I saw this kind of take place in my sales journey with the different personality types.

[00:53:24] Hans: Really like those perspective. I’m sitting there glued to that. That’s very interesting. Um, yeah, that’s actually I’m lacking in that field. I, I haven’t really ever like, thought of it in that way. Um, but I could see how Adva Aous, well,

[00:53:36] Josh: Hans, that’s, that’s perfect, Hans, because I have a sales program, Hans, that you, Hans would be perfect for now is a live case study of how to blow a sale.

[00:53:46] Hans: I just leave the call hip burp. Oh, Hans is gone. He, Josh, I’m leaving Josh.

[00:53:50] Josh: Watch. Goodbye. Josh. Uh, yeah, but you know, I mean, all honesty, I, and I don’t wanna Oh, freak people out because you don’t need to think about it too hard, but it’s just worthwhile looking at your clients. Yeah. And look at, like, it, there’s probably a lot of similar things that you’ve seen as a web designer or whatever you’re selling.

[00:54:06] Josh: And I would say overall though, the, the commonality between all sales nowadays is just to share and just to help. Yes. You said earlier, All what, 6,000 people you’ve interviewed, what’s the commonality? They all wanna help. So Yep. Get that in the forefront. Like, don’t sell, just help. That really is the way to go.

[00:54:26] Hans: Yeah. I mean, cuz it kind of, if that strikes who you are as a person, if you’re listening to this and like, that’s who I wanna be. Like, I just wanna be someone who helps people. Let that be a part of your conversations. Like, and, and, and with wanting to help people. Like, I feel like people that wanna help people, they don’t say they wanna help people. They actually are more doers and like, just want to go get it done for you. So, I don’t know, maybe that won’t be a good sales pitch, but,

[00:54:46] Josh: uh, well, I should, yeah, you don’t have to. Yeah. I guess you would say like, we don’t have to necessarily say, That because you’re right. That’s where it gets like, you know what Josh, I just want to help you.

[00:54:55] Josh: I’m like, come on. Yeah, come on. Uh, but if, if that comes through in like what you say, if helping is the key to like, well here’s some, here’s some free ideas, here’s what I would do. Here’s some case studies of projects that we worked on that went really well and it helped this client. All those things help this, this potential client.

[00:55:14] Josh: So yeah, you’re right. It’s like, it’s one of those things where it’s like somebody who says like, I’m just super modest and I’m just very self-aware. Um, probably not either one of those things for you. True. So, yeah, it is one of those things where like you, I, I guess now we’re getting interesting cuz we’re getting into the weeds of like psychology with Yeah. What, what you say versus what the results are. Of what you said.

[00:55:38] Hans: Yeah. What is, yeah, what is the outcome of what you do like as helping, but you don’t want to come, you don’t wanna lead with talking about like what the byproduct is of what you’re doing. Like, I don’t know. I don’t know the right wording.

[00:55:50] Josh: It also reminds me of like I’m, this girl in high school was just cra like nuts. She was just like this drama queen and one time she was like, I just hate drama. I was like, What, when you hear drama, you are the first, first, like the, the lack of self-awareness. There was astonishing. So, uh, same thing in sales, like yeah, you don’t want to be that sweaty salesperson who it’s very clear that you really don’t want to help.

[00:56:15] Hans: yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I, it all comes back down to like, if it, if, if it is, what if you wanna help people and you’re concerned about sales, just focus on conversations that you’re even having outside of sales, outside of business. Cuz in so many ways, I feel like what sales taught me was just how to communicate with people, which is like, turns out the best way to communicate pe with people is to understand where they’re coming from.

[00:56:38] Hans: And then if you di, if your opinion differs from them, you’ve, you vocalize that and you share that. And if you d And my, my only addition to my sales training was like, if you do it from an o like from what you believe in, then you’re golden. Because now you, you, as I mentioned, you don’t have a spider web of lies.

[00:56:54] Hans: You have to build up like you just. When you hear things you like, say it, say why you like it. You know, if you hear things you don’t like, say it, say why you don’t like it. And then provide your insights into why you feel differently or the same.

[00:57:07] Josh: I’m go from there. I’m so glad you mentioned this, because there is a danger of being a yes man in sales. Where it’s like, I’ll do any for anything for you client and you know, what’s gonna break best practices or not, not actually gonna help them.

[00:57:19] Josh: So what would your thoughts be, and maybe tips be for sharing some like, uh, not disagreements, but just some like you don’t necessarily agree with, with everything or that they want, like we’ve all had the clients that are like, I want this logo to be like right here on the website, and then you’re like and then you’re like, oh, it’s a terrible idea. Um, how do you share the thoughts that might be different that might defer.

[00:57:42] Hans: All right, so Josh, remember that one because there’s two parts I wanna share, which is number one, if you haven’t learned how to say no yet, you’re not, you gotta get there. You got like, if you’re looking at my face right now while watching this, like you see the amount of hair loss, like learn how to say no and you will retain your hairline.

[00:57:59] Hans: The moment you say no is. Well yet again, a reiteration of you being honest. Um, but also I am shocked how many times when you decline someone in a sales process, how much more interest did they become in working with you? Because like, and I think what it it just speaks to is just building that trust.

[00:58:16] Hans: When you’re saying no to people, they, and they’re expecting you to say, yes, I’ll do anything for you. You, they’re gonna turn back and be like, did this person just tell me no? Like, now I just wanna work with them even more. So, and, and that gives you not dominance. It puts you on the same level as them where you can respect each other.

[00:58:32] Hans: When you have respect for each other, you have the highest chances of having a successful project launch. Um, Now, how do I take that into the example? Sorry, Josh. What was that example you just gave me? Oh, can you put this logo in the center here? Or something like that? Yeah. So that’s a great opportunity for acknowledge, respond, ask, be like, obviously I can do that in like seconds for you.

[00:58:51] Hans: Like that’s no problem from a technical standpoint. I can get this done for you. Like immediately. So you’ve acknowledged, you’ve, you’ve, like, they asked, can you do it? You said, yeah, it’s no problem whatsoever. Be like, what you may want to consider is like, I’ve never done this in my career. I’ve never heard of this.

[00:59:07] Hans: And like I even posted on the social media group in the, in the Josh Hall’s podcast for Josh, uh, fans only, Josh, Josh, Josh. Um, and even they kind of shared their thoughts that maybe this is not a good idea. And obviously if you can like take the extra second to find even an article from somewhere that kind of talks about maybe why it might not be a bad idea.

[00:59:26] Hans: That way you’re like letting ’em know, Hey, I’m more than happy to do it. Have you considered this different way of looking at it? Like, and then, and then you ask a question. This is such a critical part, which is now you guide them to where you think maybe is a better place. Yes. What if instead of that we take this kind of like that, but we, we do this instead.

[00:59:44] Hans: And then you guide ’em. So you give them an easy way to respond and be like, oh, I like that way more. Let’s do that. And like, and it’s amazing when you can because what you’re doing there. Is your, you’re just taking your professional experience, acknowledging why, like, okay, I see why you want that. It’s gonna look really kind of interesting. Maybe that’s the best word to use. It’s gonna look interesting being put there.

[01:00:04] Josh: That’s gonna be so unique if you do it

[01:00:06] Hans: that way. Yeah, very unique. Um, and then, you know, respond and ask.

[01:00:09] Josh: It’s a great point because, Oh, and it’s a sales, it’s a sales tip if, if anyone doesn’t realize it. Because when you share your expertise and you actually, uh, not have an argument, but you disagree with, with an idea that your client might have in a weird way that builds trust like no other, because you are strong enough to say like, Hey, actually this actually isn’t something I recommend and here’s why.

[01:00:29] Josh: Cuz I’ve worked on a lot of websites that did this and it didn’t go over well. And, uh, I know it’s, you know, it’s a trend or, uh, people, you don’t think it looks great. But actually what we find is, is it leads to this or it’s just actually, it’s, it’s in a case like with access, you could, this is the.

[01:00:45] Josh: Perfect time to bring up like new things that are happening in web design. Like you might wanna do that, but one thing that’s really important right now is accessibility to make sure that everyone can view the website. And if we do this slider with these kind of things that you wanna do, it’s actually gonna be, uh, uh, it’s gonna, you know, Google might ding you for speed or accessibility and they’ll be like, oh, I didn’t even think about that.

[01:01:06] Josh: Now suddenly they trust you because you’re able to share some expertise. So yeah, right on. A hundred percent. Right on. Love it. Now I’m not saying that anyone has to say, Hey, I don’t think we’re a good fit for you. But the story about like saying no and then them wanting you more, I can’t help but bring up, uh, my second girlfriend.

[01:01:25] Josh: So my first girlfriend had just broken up with me. She broke my heart. I was like nine, uh, I think it was 20 and. I think it was the day after my band was playing a show and there was another girl there who I guess thought I was cute, whatever. She came up to me and she said that, and I was just not in a good place and I told her I was gay.

[01:01:46] Josh: Oh, wow. I actually thought she was super cute too. I ended up, she ended up being my second girlfriend. But I say that to say I told her that and she wanted me so bad after that. She was like, what? She’s like, no one tells me that she could tell I’m totally not gay. So she like, it was just funny. It was like, it was a classic example I learned in relationships, uh, which is the same thing for sales.

[01:02:04] Josh: I’m, again, I’m not saying they used to tell clients, actually, I don’t think we’re a good fit for you click. But if you do sometimes have like a wait list or like, you see this with a lot of coaching programs, they’ll have the doors closed and you can’t get into the next quarter or whatever it is that does make you go like, oh, maybe there, that is an odd, and again, that’s, that’s not, you don’t need to do that.

[01:02:24] Josh: I didn’t do that for, for businesses. But there is a time and place to say like, you know what? Or in the case of a project that, or a client that doesn’t have a budget, you can say, I’d love to work with you, but these are where our packages start at. So just get to this place and come to us when you’re ready.

[01:02:39] Josh: Yeah. And they’re gonna be like, oh, I’m so ready to work with Josh. Let’s get our business to this so we can do that. So I, I just wanted to share that because there is some validity to, to that idea.

[01:02:49] Hans: Yeah. No, I, I’m glad to hear you. You, you resonate with it too. It’s, um, I’m sitting here thinking it, maybe it helps, like build integrity for yourself and represent yourself as having integrity, which is you’re gonna put your foot down when you don’t agree with something.

[01:03:02] Hans: And like I.

[01:03:04] Josh: Or it, it’s not a good

[01:03:05] Hans: fit. Or it’s not a good fit. Yeah, exactly. Like if someone responds poorly to that, well, you’ve done your best job possible, which has avoided a potential nightmare client. Like if you are, if you’re being honest with yourself and like you’re saying no, and you don’t believe something is the right way to go about things, and that person’s like, well, I’m not working with you.

[01:03:22] Hans: I want what I want, and you’re not the right fit. Awesome. You probably just avoided a six month nightmare client. Yes. And that is the type of stuff that causes burnout and that is the type of stuff that you wanna avoid. As long as possible, hopefully forever, um, when running any business. Yeah.

[01:03:39] Josh: If they’re nickel and dimming you during the proposal process and they’re asking for deals and discounts and they’re asking for different red flag, red flags, like payment options that you’re not comfortable with or like even ways to pay if you’re like, I take credit card or PayPal, but they just, I mean, in some cases I would, I would allow some things, like I would take a check if they just absolutely can’t do that if it’s a good client.

[01:04:03] Josh: But the reality is, yeah, if you like, if you start the entire process by just. Completely bending all of your practices and everything, that’s gonna be a problem. Yeah. And you know what’s gonna be 10 times worse when you have calls and there’s content collection and everything else from there. Uh, so, and don’t

[01:04:22] Hans: get me wrong, like the other side of the coin is the fact that you’re probably sitting there being like, I got bills to pay. You know, it’s stressful. Like there is another factor that kind of gets people to think, okay, maybe I’ll just kind of bl be blind to some of these clear red flags. And I, in the agency world, you, you have to be just super, you, I had to learn the hard way. I feel like so many people just have to our way.

[01:04:42] Hans: Like we all have gotten there. And if you’re listening to this and you’ve been in the industry long enough, you know Yeah. You know what this is about. And that’s, that’s why I love this community so much because like I was all alone. I thought agencies were competitors. Like no, like I was such a different person back in the day, but I was like, oh, I agencies can’t talk to other agencies like that, that they’re my compe quote unquote competition.

[01:05:02] Hans: Like I was so ignorant. And like of course a community like yours, like everyone helping each other, like, oh my gosh, you could have my approach. Which is like, just not even see if there’s a world like this. And then the approach like your audience takes, which is like, Hey, we can learn from each other. And like, my hat’s off to you for frigging that one out.

[01:05:19] Hans: Well, I

[01:05:19] Josh: think there’s also a big difference. I do think there’s a little bit of a difference, Hans, between um, in person like marketing agencies who have like overhead and agencies downtown and stuff versus work from Homers Solopreneurs because we have to have an online community. Like we have to be in a community with somebody.

[01:05:38] Josh: I think that has fostered a different nature versus the digital marketing. Like, and I just know this from a couple people I know who have agencies in downtown Columbus. They are a little more hold to the tight, to the chest a little more, um, I hate to say like

[01:05:56] Hans: reluctant

[01:05:57] Josh: to Kinda, yeah, reluctant. They’re also a little more materialistic in the sense of like, how big’s your team kind of thing. I saw a little bit of that. I think Covid changed a lot of that because everyone was forced to work from home and then even people who were in an office were like, oh my gosh, remote work can be awesome. Um, sometimes I hate it, but I do think that has, I do, I said it to say, Freelancers, solo printers and business owners who have more of a remote type lifestyle.

[01:06:22] Josh: I think there is a nature to just share what we know and build each other up. That’s cool. Which is, yeah. I’m so happy to hear that. I totally, that’s the future. It’s awesome. That’s the future. Oh, it’s so awesome. Yeah. I mean, thank goodness, and I wonder if times have changed too. There may be like, I don’t know if it was like that when I got into web design in 2009 and 10.

[01:06:39] Josh: Like, yeah, I don’t know. I just, I don’t know. I didn’t look into any online communities. All I knew was what I had in person. Um, yeah. But it, it was, it definitely the tide shifted. Um, I mean, you and I are both heavily involved in the WordPress community. That is a community that prides itself in being. Just that a community.

[01:06:58] Josh: Yeah. So I don’t know if Squarespace and other builders have that type of camaraderie. I don’t, I don’t know. If anyone knows, let me know. I’d love to be informed, but, um,

[01:07:08] Hans: that’s awesome. Well, it’s a good thing that, yeah, everyone listening, it sounds like they found the value in community, you know, and it’s a great, it’s a great thing when it exists.

[01:07:15] Hans: Hey,

[01:07:16] Josh: can you, uh, before we get ready to wrap this up, Hans, can you share maybe, uh, the value of referring people for sales? Because like I learned, one way to get sales is to refer people, like, refer clients to other colleagues in, in competition, quote unquote, because like, I didn’t do advanced SEO stuff, so I would refer somebody to the advanced SEO people and then they would send me referrals. Did you, did you see that too? And do you see that now in what you guys

[01:07:41] Hans: do? I would be more than happy to talk about that. So I’ll talk from the agency perspective. So, um, I was offering, I, I, I was working with my agency for four years and I set back, stepped back and counted up how many services I was offering, and I counted 38 different services.

[01:07:57] Hans: I was offering 38 services from my agency to clients, like from mx record management, like email management. And, and the moment I decided I actually just want to drill down and just do web design, my company just flipped. I mean, it just got so much better. We could have processes in place. We could start like, Doing things by the book rather than trying to just completely scrap.

[01:08:18] Josh: So you niche down by your service? Not necessarily it’s down by an

[01:08:21] Hans: industry. We did. And so by niche. And then the beauty of it by nicheing down to our service cuz we were like, oh no client’s ever gonna work for us or no one’s ever gonna wanna work for us cause we don’t do everything. Turns out we worked with people, we worked with clients that respect, that are shops that are focused on certain things.

[01:08:37] Hans: And sure enough, seo, we had an SEO partner who would send us clients. We would send him clients. Um, where one of the key things I did, and here’s a sales tip, uh, for anyone listening, I was in Chicago and I searched. Digital marketing companies minus Chicago. So, or sorry, sorry. Digital marketing companies.

[01:08:55] Hans: Chicago minus web design. So when you do minus when searching it, antis searches and I would get search results that would show me just web digital marketing companies that weren’t doing web design. And rather than like spanning all them, I actually like took a serious amount of time and like understood like what they’re about, what they’re interested in.

[01:09:13] Hans: And I reached out to the ones that I related to the most and I was like, Hey. My name’s Hans. I run agency. I bet you have clients that come to you wanting to do a bunch of money, pay you a bunch of money every month to do marketing, but you’re looking at their website being like, there’s no way this thing’s gonna convert.

[01:09:27] Hans: Ever. Be like, how about you send them to me first? I’ll build out a new website that can convert those leads mu in a much better click so that you can get the most value return on your investment when you’re running ads for your client afterwards. And they, I had a ham, not everyone but a handful bid on ’em and oh my gosh.

[01:09:46] Hans: Wow. Every week we would get a call. I, I remember this one call we got from one of these marketing companies. They’re like, Hans, we got this client. You know, there it’s a seven page site. Um, And, um, not, not e-commerce, it’s seven pages, but their budget’s only 20 k. Can you like, help ’em out? I was like, yeah, I, I think I can, I thi I feel like I can muster up a 20 K website for seven pages.

[01:10:08] Hans: I’ll probably able figure that out. And like, of course we, and the quote was way less. But, uh, uh, but, you know, getting those warm introductions is huge. And, and that’s how, that’s how you find ’em. That’s how the type of search you can do for your own city. Um, my only recommendation don’t spam ’em because we all get those emails where people wanna partner and that’s not what a partnership is like. It’s like you actually know the person and like take the time to talk with them if they’re wanting to talk.

[01:10:32] Hans: It is, it’s a great lesson

[01:10:33] Josh: though, because I’ve found, and you just, you just very visually ex explain this. If you pass on a sale of it’s not a great fit for you, that leads to sales. And it’s amazing.

[01:10:43] Josh: It kinda goes back to, um, uh, the Christmas movie, uh, Mier, Quang 34th Street, where, I don’t know if you’ve seen that. Um, it’s been forever. So Santa Claus is in Macy’s and, uh, The real Santa Claus, of course. And, uh, a customer is like, do you know if they have this? And he is like, they don’t, but they have this over here at JCPenney or whatever it was.

[01:11:03] Josh: And then she was like, I have never had somebody in this store refer another store. And she’s like, I appreciate that. I trust you. I’m gonna come back. That like is the exact example. Yeah. I’m talking about here. It literally works. Hey, by the way, Hans, what’s the, how did you do the minus thing exactly? Do you, like, how was that formatted?

[01:11:22] Hans: so I’m on a Mac. It’s the, it’s the letter next to zero or the, uh, the key next to zero to the right of

[01:11:27] Josh: zero. I mean, do you, like, do you put a space in between that for the term? Like do you just Google? So if I did like digital marketing, Columbus, Ohio, what I do,

[01:11:36] Hans: and then minus web design. So I, so in that web design’s two words. Um, so you do minus quote, web space design quote, uh, quote. Like a quote. Yeah. So when you do quotes and searches, it’s saying like, give me results of this exact phrase. Oh. So when you do the minus like the dash, a minus is a dash, you do like the minus and then quote webspace design end quote, that’s gonna search for that whole phrase and then subtract it from the results. So wow. By no means perfect, but it is really nice. Like you, it drills down really well.

[01:12:13] Josh: That’s fascinating. What a cool little SEO tip. I had no idea. I’m ripping that off and putting it in my SEO course. Please do give you a cool crew. No, no, it’s just take it. I didn’t even think about what a great way to like look at your competition and um, yeah.

[01:12:26] Hans: Sorry. It, it turns out, um, a lot of these agencies I reached out to these digital marketing agencies. They used to be a full service shop and instead of focusing on web design, they just happened to focus just on digital marketing. They got rid of their web arm. Yeah. So like, I came in, I’m like, Hey, I’m literally the exact person, but we want the web design route rather than digital marketing.

[01:12:44] Hans: And it’s like best friends, they want to take you out to drinks and all that stuff. And, and now you manage a relationship that like this person just feeds you business and everyone wins

[01:12:53] Hans: and Yeah, sure. One of, one

[01:12:54] Josh: of my students, April, HER three services, our website, design, maintenance, and care. And then email marketing. She doesn’t really do, she doesn’t do social, doesn’t do other, like SEO related stuff as much. It’s those three. So for anyone who wants the email, email marketing aspect of things, she’s a great referral. And if somebody needs copywriting or seo, she can refer them to them. So it’s like a perfect, uh, storm of referrals in the best of ways.

[01:13:18] Josh: So another sales tip, uh, this is so cool because there’s, the reality is there’s just so many. I think really what we’ve done here, man, is we’ve shared how many ways there are to sell without being salesy. Yeah,

[01:13:31] Hans: yeah. And it comes and it’s rooted and just, just be yourself. And, and if you, if sales is awkward, guess what?

[01:13:37] Hans: It’s awkward for everyone. Especially the more you think about it, like really what you should go into meetings with when talking to people is just like, I wanna understand where they’re coming from. Yeah. What, what pain points do they have? What passions do they have? And just make sure to record that call with their permission. Of course.

[01:13:52] Josh: And I would say too, if sale, if, if even after this, if you just feel like sales is just. Is so painful. It may also be like, how confident are you in your services? Do you, do you feel like you can make a good website and you’re proud of it? And the reality is, if you do that, you’re gonna get results for clients more than what they have now.

[01:14:10] Josh: I guarantee it. So you don’t need to be an expert. But you, you should at least feel competent in your services. I think that helps sales dramatically. Cuz I sold my first WordPress website and I didn’t know WordPress and it ended up being a nightmare situation. So I don’t recommend do, I would go through a course, learn WordPress, learn the process, you’ll feel good. That will bring, read the confidence in sales. So agreed.

[01:14:33] Hans: Oh yeah, definitely. You gotta repeat and if you don’t have any clients, you got some time, build out another website this weekend or something like that, you know, just get acclimated. Cuz the moment you start to get acclimated with it, you start just speaking the language naturally. It’s like you, you start to get passionate about it. So,

[01:14:46] Josh: and the really good thing is, is once you’re a little more established and you get referrals, sales is really just a matter of closing. Like you, like. Yes. You don’t really need to build the trust and authority quickly because you know someone else has already done that for you.

[01:14:59] Josh: Somebody did it for you. Your clients are your best referral sources. Yep. Yeah. Well, Hans, what a blast, man. I have. It’s always fun. I I, it was so fun to talk with you about something different because Yeah, I heard your interview on, uh, on, on my friend Danny’s podcast, and, uh, I was like, wow, I did not know your sales background.

[01:15:16] Josh: And I didn’t really, honestly, I didn’t really think about your sales approach, but it’s also side note, one reason why I love sending my students to you, because I know they are in good hands and they’re not gonna be like, oh, are they gonna pressure me into buying something I don’t need? Like, no. They’re gonna go to you and you’re gonna see if it’s a good fit.

[01:15:33] Josh: And, and I know you’re gonna treat ’em well and you’re gonna answer questions. So, um, that’s a, that’s awesome. That’s a good lesson too, is like if you are known to be a cool casual person in sales, then you’ll get referrals. Cuz no one wants to refer somebody to the hard sell person. No one. Yeah, that’s

[01:15:50] Hans: Josh that’s exactly right. Josh. I would never refer someone to you, Josh, if this was how we talked with each other, Josh.

[01:15:57] Josh: Exactly. And we all have those realtor friends, don’t we? Yeah. We all have those realtor friends. Uh, yeah man. Well, Hans, thank you for your time, dude. This was super fun. I really, really enjoyed diving into a different, uh, topic here with you. Term again, where should people go to connect with you?

[01:16:14] Hans: Um, so term again, dot com. I mean, hey, if you wanna be an agency partner, we give you a free license forever of our auto updating website policies. We also give you all the education material to help sure ensure that your clients understand it’s their responsibility to have policies. And, um, yeah, you can resell or refer our product, I think it’s aged.com/josh Hall. If I’m not mistaken, I’ll

[01:16:33] Josh: give you my, my quick link, but I’m not gonna sell you hard. Uh, what I’m gonna do is build some trust and authority by saying this is an affiliate link. If you would like to use my affiliate link, you will get a couple free accounts. You can go to josh hall.co/armageddon if it’s a good fit for you. Hopefully we get the results. Yeah. Yeah. The,

[01:16:49] Hans: the only difference is you actually, you get instead of one free license with Tordon, which is our standard offering, you actually get two if you use Josh’s

[01:16:56] Josh: link. Yep. Uh, so josh hall.co/aged. Um, I was trying to think if there’s anything else. I think that’s it, man. We really, we covered some awesome stuff. Oh, that’s what I meant. I was just thinking, obviously I was thinking there. You’re doing video stuff now. Are you doing video on?

[01:17:09] Hans: I am Instagram, Facebook, YouTube. Yeah, YouTube, I guess. Um, yeah, we have a, we have a marketing person, Trevor. He’s absolutely awesome. Um, and he’s doing more than he, he’s helping me chop these videos up and probably puts ’em on more channels. But I’m in particular watching YouTube, um, a little bit more often. So yeah, just search term again on YouTube you’ll see some videos we, that we make like a good one that we just recently made is like, do I need a cookie policy or a cookie consent solution?

[01:17:34] Hans: So many people don’t know if they need one or not. And in the, in a video we talk about what is a properly built cookie consent versus a not properly built one. Cuz there are ones that are not properly built that have landed. Quite a few businesses into some hot water. Um, yeah. So feel free to check us out on YouTube too.

[01:17:50] Josh: You have a new subscriber? Cuz I just subscribed. Oh, I did not. You were, I did not know you were doing YouTube. How cool.

[01:17:56] Hans: It’s a d like it’s been a disaster so far. It takes me like for every three hours of recording we get like 14 minutes of video

[01:18:02] Josh: that is quality. So same thing with choruses, same thing with anything video. It’s like, oh, here’s the eighth. Try. Hopefully this will work. Yep. Uh, yeah, any sort of video, it takes way longer. So it’s shocking. Yeah, shocking. Yeah. Shock. It is shocking. All right, Hans, thanks for, for chatting, man. Looking forward to round four sometime in the near future. Who knows what we’ll talk about round four.

[01:18:22] Hans: I already look forward to it. Josh. Thanks so much.

[01:18:26] Josh: Ah, so good. So good, right? Isn’t Hans just awesome? Like I, I said it how many times in this conversation? I just love his approach on being able to sell without being salesy by just being real, being organic, not being sleazy, slimy, not pushy, but just selling results, selling education, and all the things that we just covered.

[01:18:43] Josh: So I truly hope this helps you. The next time you have a sales call or have a sales meeting, I hope it helps you feel more confident and just take some of the pressure off to just be real and, and have some fun with this. Reality is business is a large part of our lives. We spend a lot of time doing it, especially if you’re doing it full-time.

[01:19:01] Josh: I want you to enjoy it. So I want you to enjoy the sales aspect too, which most people dread. So I hope this helps you out. I would love to hear your feedback on this. If you’d like to share a takeaway, all the links that we mentioned this episode, you can go to josh hall.co/ 2 59 for this episode’s page to leave a comment.

[01:19:16] Josh: And then as I mentioned, Hans is with the company term Gidon. Him and his wife started and run this company, which has auto updating privacy pages. So basically you join term adon, you get a embed code that you put on your website and all of your privacy stuff is automatically updated and generated from term adon, which is compliant with all estates.

[01:19:39] Josh: And if you didn’t know, they also have an agency account so you can use this for your clients. So if you have not yet been through my maintenance plan course, one thing I teach in there is what I’ll share here with you, which is that you can have an agency account and have auto updating privacy, uh, pages for all your clients and it’s an upsell.

[01:19:57] Josh: So I highly recommend doing that again. Check them out. You can go to josh hall.co/term mageddon. That will also be linked at the show notes for this page, Josh hall.co/ 2 59. Thanks so much for joining. See you on the next episode.