If you’re anything like me, you take feedback and client results to heart.

And this my friend, is a gift and a curse.

I think it’s natural when you have your own business to take everything personally, both good and bad but there comes a point where you have to be very guarded towards the feedback and input you’re allowing yourself to take in from clients.

I wanted to take a deep dive into the idea of detaching emotionally and personally from client feedback and results and I couldn’t think of anyone better to explore this topic than Erica Nash who’s a course curriculum designer at ericanash.com and the client success coordinator at The Web Designer Academy.

She’s knee deep every week in hearing about client results (both good and bad) and has learned some amazing tricks in helping not take it personally.

So whether it’s negative feedback on a new website design, clients not getting the results you had hoped for with the web presence you’ve created or that proposal that doesn’t move forward…I hope this convo helps you carry on just fine!

In this episode:

00:00 – Detaching Emotionally From Client Feedback
07:26 – Diversifying Results
22:58 – Measuring and Sharing Business Results
37:19 – Web Design Pricing
43:50 – Managing Client Opinion
48:05 – Navigating Feedback in Business
54:47 – Refunds in Course Creation
1:05:40 – Celebrating Students

Erica’s Course Design 101

Connect with Erica:

Featured links mentioned:

Episode #267 Full Transcription


But really kind of looking at it as just information helps to make it feel less personal. Dehumanize it. Dehumanize it because it’s so, and we talked about this last time too but not just the negative feedback, but also the positive feedback. If we’re internalizing the negative feedback or the positive feedback, then we’re going to rely so much on external validation to feel safe and to feel good in our business, and that is such a dangerous place to be. Welcome to the Web Design Business Podcast with your host, josh Hall, helping you build a web design business that gives you freedom and a lifestyle you love.


Hey friends, welcome into the show. Great to have you here today. Hey, before we dive into this one, i just wanted to offer a sincere and honest thank you for listening to the show. It dawned on me recently that And I forget where this stat was I don’t even know how they know this. I guess it depends on the player, but the stat I saw was that people are typically subscribed to between 10 and 15 podcasts, which means you have a lot you could be listening to. So the fact that you’re here listening to the show, i so appreciate it. I hope the Web Design Business Podcast helps you on the weekly. To those of you who have been loyal listeners since perhaps day one, an extra special thank you to you. Just wanted to get that out there and say I appreciate you listening because the numbers are growing, which is really, really exciting, and you’re a big part of that. You can be a bigger part of the show if you’d like to leave a podcast review or share it to a friend, which would be super helpful. So I appreciate you.


Something else I appreciate are good client reviews and student successes. One thing I don’t appreciate I’m sure you feel like this too is negative feedback or for whatever reason, when a client just doesn’t get good results with the website that you provide for them. So I wanted to talk about this in detail to help you separate emotionally, client results, because we cannot have our mentor and emotional state as a business owner rely on whether our clients get good or bad results. We just we cannot go day to day without really diving into this and being cognizant of detaching emotionally from results and feedback. So, to explore this in more detail, i’m so excited to bring on Erica Nash, who is you can find her at ericannashcom. She essentially is somebody who helps people create course curriculums And she is also the success coordinator for my friend, shannon Matters Web Designer Academy. So Erica is really deep into the world of client results and how to measure those. So I couldn’t think of anybody better to talk about how to make sure that we detach from both good and negative results and feedback. How do we, how do we detach from those personally and emotionally? So what a fun combo.


Here’s Erica again. Check her out at ericannashcom for more. What a great conversation. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did And again, thanks for listening to the show. Here she is. Well, erica, i had such a good time being interviewed by you that I wanted to return the favor and have you on and maybe pick your brain about. I guess we’re going to maybe focus on, like client results and how we let those build us up but also not affect us, and maybe the internalization of the measurements that we get and results for clients. So if that sounds good, that figure, that’s what we might dive into today.


Yeah, i am always game to talk about those kinds of things And I enjoyed chatting with you, so I’m super excited to get to do it again.


Yeah, i was going to say I know we did it. just well, it was a couple of weeks ago, so I feel like we’re going to it’s going to be a bummer not to chat every couple of weeks, but yeah, you had some really introspective, interesting questions And I could just tell your I feel like you’re a very thoughtful entrepreneur. Where does that come from? If I’m reading that right, where does, where do you think that comes from for you, with what you do?


That is a really great question. I am very introspective And sometimes that’s to my detriment. Most of the time it’s a good thing, but sometimes it’s a little like I’m like, okay, erica, it’s not that serious, but yeah, i think it probably.


I used to be a teacher And so you know, just dealing with a lot of people day in and day out, you kind of you almost kind of have to be, and so it really helped me to develop just like the ability to ask questions and ask myself questions, and so that’s kind of and like that’s literally kind of what I do now in my work. It’s I just feel like I’m always just asking questions And and it gives me a sense of like understanding of you know, whatever it is that my clients are dealing with. But also it allows me it allows me to learn more information, but it gives the clients the space to kind of come to their own conclusions about whatever it might be, and so it’s always just a really interesting process And that is kind of just has naturally flowed into podcasting. So that’s awesome.


It definitely sounds like you’re a good fit and a good. I love the foundation of like your approach to business sounds like it’s perfect for what you do with not only the podcast, but I mean essentially you’re. You’re helping course creators and, i imagine, community builders and on the entrepreneurs. But you’re also connected with one of my good friends in the industry, shannon Matter, because you are what’s your official title with her. Are you the success coordinator for her students as well.


So I mean, what a?


perfect topic. I didn’t even think about that until I just said that a lot, but what a perfect topic to get your insight on, which is the results we get our clients, because I imagine you overseeing some of the results that you’re helping, or Shannon’s helping people with. That must feed into some really interesting questions that I imagine you guys have learned over the years with web designer, specifically with how to get results and how to measure that.


Oh, it absolutely has it. It’s just you know like results can be, so I don’t know if touchy is the right word, but they can be just so personal and we internalize so much of that stuff And so we have a lot of I don’t even I don’t even want to say their issues because that doesn’t feel like the right word to say. But we get a lot of questions about results and how people are feeling about results, how they’re responding to results and the fear that comes before the results are even in. You know, like just all of the things. And it does help to ask questions and kind of chase that rabbit just a little bit sometimes to help kind of take some of the power out of the fear that comes or the hurt that comes with it or whatever.


Well, and I feel like the term results reminds me so much of the term success and success, just like results, look so different depending on the situation, and for web designers, this is a really important. No, we’ve never talked about this on the podcast but results may look different for your customers too. I mean, i think, at the end of the day, for web designers, you want to build a website that’s going to help grow somebody’s business, but there also may be multi facets to that, because success for one business may be like one lead a month from their website. Another business, if it’s an online store, for example, success is going to look very different because they’re like main revenue sources, their website. So results I think you’re right, they are touch you because they’re so different Like I don’t know, do you have, do you guys have a good feel for maybe in your experience, erica, like the different categories of success, like I imagine, one is revenue, business growth, but one may be time, like you might want to help people work less and make more.


One maybe profitability. So it’s different than revenue, it’s like profitability. One may be success in scaling. I don’t know. Have you identified any categories of results?


Yeah, typically I like to talk about them in three different areas, and so time, money and capacity. And capacity can look like a lot of different things, but you know what is the energy the mental energy, the emotional energy, the physical energy involved in the tasks that you may be taking off of their plate. You know what are. What are they gaining in that? Something else that I was thinking about recently too, is like in your work as a web designer, are you sort of like decreasing the client’s exposure to something that maybe they don’t want to deal with or they feel a lot of stress around or something like that? And so through that, you know you’re decreasing the mental strain that may be involved, with the mental energy that’s involved.


And then going back to money, you know, like that tends to be kind of like the top thing, right, like the people are always talking about the money that you know this or that is able to create and which is fine and good, and like that’s an important metric to measure by, but also like are we able to save our clients money? You’re thinking about it that way. And then, in time, like I feel like time freedom is kind of the new standard of wealth, right, like everybody’s kind of chasing being able to be away from their desk a little bit more. And so if we can lean into talking about results in all three of those ways, we are always going to be able to show an ROI in some way to potential clients And it’s gonna feel a little bit better to us. Because if we’re just focused on money, there’s so many things involved in making money And like we can’t control all of those things, and so if we kind of diversify how we’re talking about them, then we’re kind of covering all our bases.


That is such a great point. I never really had that visual for explaining results to customers and potential clients because it’s so easy to say we’ll help grow your business with a new website. Usually it’s focusing on money, but yeah, if their website helps them, for example, reduce bad fit leads and get really quality people through the door less discovery calls but with quality candidates, that right there may save an average of five to 10 hours a week for your client. And you could position that as like what will you do with this extra time in your business or in your life? Like, do you wanna take a whole day, potentially a week more, for just you all by just the things we do on the website? I’m just making this web design related, but of course this translates to any industry. That is genius, like there’s. I love that idea of hitting the different, not pain points, but maybe like heartstrings, like pull on a different heartstring because and I don’t know, maybe there’s a point in the process where you ask about the results for clients, like what’s the most important thing? Do we wanna grow the? we grow the revenue? Do we wanna focus on profit? Do we want to save you more time? Yeah, all those different? yeah, what’s your capacity? Do we need to look at scaling and hiring things out? Like what? yeah, what does that look like? So, right off the bat, what a great point.


And I think one thing that’s difficult with results. I think, for course, creators, that may be different for clients of web designers, because my clients generally never talked with each other And the industries were different So they didn’t really like one. A hairdresser wouldn’t look like a manufacturing website and say like well, that manufacturing company did like a million dollars in sales on a hairdresser. Like they weren’t at the same level with their goals But with, like, my students.


One issue that I’ve come across that I’ve had to be really wary about is when I share success stories. I don’t necessarily want that to either intimidate or make people feel bad if they haven’t hit that. Like for my students who have gone to six figures pretty quickly, i love sharing that That’s a huge success because they’re getting time, freedom and they’re building their business. But at the same time, if somebody makes 20,000 any year, i don’t want them to feel like, oh, i’m a failure, i didn’t do what Josh’s other students do. What’s wrong with me? Like there’s so many variables that contribute to success or results right, whatever that looks like.


No, that’s so true, and I think that that is one of the reasons why, in programs like that, having a coaching component is so important. Just so that there’s a little bit of discourse about like yes, this is happening and this is good and this is amazing for this student, and also here are some of the other struggles that some of these other students are going like to help them not feel so alone in their struggle. Like, just because one person is winning doesn’t mean that there’s not space for you to also win, and it doesn’t have to be right now And everybody’s path is different. And so really kind of leaning into like the human part of it, right of like yes, this can be triggering and I totally see you and like witness to that. And also here’s what else that can be true about this Like this doesn’t mean that you’re going to this doesn’t mean that you’re a failure. This doesn’t mean that you know you can’t also get here as well.


Well, and then sometimes too, another component of success in regards to like a good year revenue-wise. I’ve learned to ask myself this more recently It’s like at what cost? So a lot of people who make a lot of money not all cases, but a lot of people who do it costs them something. It costs them a lot of time. It costs both in their business and personal life. It may have cost them, like family time In some case of costs.


A lot of entrepreneurs will share their numbers, which I actually am a proponent of, and I’m happy to explain my point of view on that. But just remember if an entrepreneur like Amy Porterfield, case in point, one of my favorite entrepreneurs in the course creation realm she’s very open about her numbers. Now she is a multi-seven figure business, but she also has over like 20 plus full-time team members, So there are a ton of expenses and payroll things at play there. It’s not like she makes multi-seven figures just for herself. So that’s like the kind of thing that I like to remember that my business and my setup is very different than hers and others. And, just like web designers, you may be a sole entrepreneur with a lean, mean couple of contractors and you should not judge your results or your successes. Next to an agency that has payroll and 20 people on staff, Like I say that to say like the success and the results, not only are they different, but you do have to ask yourself like at what cost, What did it take for them to get there?


Yeah, and you know, with social media, like there’s just we get the highlight reels right, like most of the time we’re seeing like all of the good things and very, very little of the hard things, and sometimes we can latch on to those good things and make you know if we’re not meeting those same things, we can make it mean all kinds of things about ourselves that are totally not true And it, like that comparison game, really can just mess with you in the worst way.


And I had a couple students one was who is now the CEO of my web design agency who took it over Eric. He was first a student of mine and he took his side hustle web design business to six figures and I think just over a year it was Now. if you parallel that to a lot of my other students who don’t do that within a year, like I had one student who was on the podcast a long time ago who said she felt like she just wasn’t measuring up necessarily to somebody like Eric who took it six years and 12 months. But if you look at their two journeys, eric was in a way different position when he started his web design business He was already experienced as an entrepreneur and as a business owner in many ways And he did not need to learn near as much of the business side of things or even confidence with selling or price points that my other student did.


And I tried to kind of explain that and anytime the situation comes up I do try to explain. you may be starting the race, i guess, for sake of an analogy, at a different place, like when I started my course creation business, i was able to take it to six figures in year two, but it was not any sort of overnight success. for me, it’s because I have spent. at that point, i had spent over 10 years building my own online business as a web designer and I did everything that I told my clients to do when I launched this business. So, yeah, have you seen that as well? Like had the importance of letting people know. when it comes to results, there’s a different starting point, or even just different paths, Absolutely.


And I, you know, and like I think about that even, like for myself, like I came from a totally different industry And so I had to be very careful about, you know, comparing my results to other people’s results, because they just they cannot compare.


It’s like comparing apples to oranges And so, to your point, talking about success looks different for everybody. You know, I really think it comes down to us deciding, like choosing our own metrics for success and really, you know doing being diligent about reminding ourselves of those things. Like you know, if success to me looks like, you know, only working 20 hours a week, you know, kind of talking about the cost, Like I probably am going to make less money, depending on you know how things go If I’m only working 20 hours, not that I’m not, I don’t even want to say that because I don’t necessarily translate time into money. But you give what I’m saying. Like you know, there are going to be trade offs here, there, wherever, And so if we’re able to really define what our own metrics of success are, then we’re going to have an easier time not playing the comparison game.


I so needed to be reminded of this, erica, because, like I’m in a season of life right now where I have three under five, we have a very common denominator with our family dynamics, where I know you have a daughter with some special needs and I do as well. That makes our lives much more intricate than like single dude designers who have all the time in the world to do whatever they want to do, or like single. You know, like the entrepreneur types, like a lot of these, like influencers and stuff, i do have a very hard time relating to people who are like, well, you don’t have kids, so you just have all the time in the world to do anything you want and you can still work out two hours a day. You know, and I don’t know if you’ve seen that even in the female side of entrepreneurs, like, there’s plenty of women entrepreneurs I think it’s very common who don’t have families, and nothing wrong with that if you want to be a career woman.


But it is very different for the entrepreneurs who are moms and balancing having kids and growing their business. So maybe even more so for the mom entrepreneurs, the mom printers, who are maybe dealing with serious comparison problems, and same for guys, but I don’t know. You tell me, is it worse for moms? when you see, like the single women or entrepreneurs who have all the time in the world and aren’t balancing mom life and kids and the hormones when there’s newborns and everything else Like my wife’s going through that right now I can’t imagine running a business alongside that too. That’s at least my perspective on the comparison and the things with success and results.


That’s actually a really interesting question And, if I’m being completely honest, i don’t think that I have like really paid much attention to like the mom part of it. Yeah, so my daughter is 14. So she is not in the stage where she is as needy as a toddler, you know, and so she’s doing her own thing a lot, which has freed up a lot of time for me to do my own thing. And so I think that had it been, had I been in business much like a long time ago when she was a lot younger and a lot more like when her needs were at a level of, you know, just like the maximum, when we were at the maximum, oh my gosh, i can’t imagine Like there’s no way that and I would have just had to do a lot to protect myself in like probably staying offline, because I could definitely see that, yeah, there’s a lot of room for playing that game whenever you’re pulled at every end and touched out, and I like every time.


I say that is because we are in that season where 305 little six month old little guy who’s awesome, but like we’re just in that season, it’s very difficult managing two toddlers, one with special needs and a newborn And I do.


I feel like I’m pretty good at avoiding the comparison trap, but inevitably those thoughts come into play And there are some times where I have had to look at what success means for me and the results that I want to get and almost change the narrative to where, like, i am okay with making a little less, as long as I’m supporting my family in this season, where I’m not missing a bunch of time with my kids And I’m not gonna like I’d rather essentially long and short of it is I would rather make a little less money and have plenty of memories and kids with the kids at this age, then make way more money and be like well, shit, i just, you know, i didn’t even see my newborn barely for the first couple of years.


So there is the metric of success is so beyond the money side of things And the reason I mentioned particularly for mom printers, but it’s the same for dads too, as dad printers like it is just hard to manage young kids and stay fresh and build and run a business at, no matter what level you’re in, and it’s hard to see again these other people who just don’t have the same responsibilities or time commitments that you do. But it is a good reminder. I needed to hear this reminder, to just to tell it to myself, like their story is not my story, their path is not my path and their season and their life is not my season in my life. Yeah, so I love that thought. I just I think it’s really important when it comes to results and measuring the results for you.


Yeah, i totally agree, and I think we forget too quickly.


Yeah it is, yeah it’s easy. I mean it’s cliche And, like you said, it’s the highlights We all know. It’s like none of this is stuff that we don’t know, but it does seem like the reminder aspect of things like this is really, really important. And remember the same for clients, like I think that’s where potentially I would love to ask you about when you’re sharing success stories of clients. I would imagine the strategy may be to focus on those three categories rather than just monetary success, because some clients may be drawn to see in somebody’s numbers go up, but then some clients may be drawn to seeing people have, like a good experience. What are your thoughts on that, on those different categories and how to use them for like success stories and testimonials?


Oh yeah, absolutely.


I think it’s so important to sort of differentiate in whatever way possible.


You know, those are the three that I tend to like kind of lean into, but they’re very broad And so, you know, figuring out and again, i mean it really does come down to knowing your ideal client and just doing a lot of talking and asking and finding out what it is that that you know those pain points. But I love to really dial into like the aspirational side of it, and so for me it’s like looking at a lot of okay, so like who is this person and what are their like big life goals, like what do they want beyond the business so that we can the business can then be like a tool to get there, and so really kind of leaning into, you know, while like this result was created and as a result of that, you know this client experienced, you know, this amount of time back or this kind of freedom, or they no hunger, felt overwhelmed, because overwhelmed can cloud everything that we do, and so just really kind of leaning into how that affects their day to day life has been really big.


What are your thoughts on sharing monetary results? And I asked this because this is a I’m finding out quite a polarized topic And I do think maybe it comes down to personality type. case in point, my wife and I are very different in terms of talking about money and stuff publicly Like. it may just be from her family background or just her personality, but she just doesn’t like to talk about money and how much we paid for stuff in our home or whatever. I’m a little not boastfully. but I’m happy to say like yeah, i pay two grand for that trigger grill that I just got. Like I’ll tell anybody that I don’t. really it doesn’t affect me.


And and when I share numbers about business growth and stuff, it’s because what really was helpful for me as a up and coming business owner was seeing actual numbers. It does not help me in the slightest to hear somebody say I agree my business by 50% because is that from $2,000 to $4,000 or is that from, you know, $75,000 to $150,000? Because that really makes it tactile for me. So very briefly, that’s kind of my perspective on the money thing And I don’t think any. everyone should feel like they have to say numbers when it comes to results, but I don’t know. We could take this in a few different directions with client results, because it gets tricky when you ask about client success. So what are your thoughts on that?


We’re sharing real numbers you know and, and you kind of hit the nail on the head like it is tricky And I am. I love transparency, but I also value clients autonomy and just like respect, their ability to like be able to share whatever they want to share. But also like just I don’t know, like I I value the relationships that I form so much And sometimes, sometimes, when I know that people are like totally fine talking about those things like you know, like kind of like you were talking about, like if people are very transparent about that, i’m a little bit less weirded out by asking for direct results. But if they tend to be very I don’t know, kind of pulled back on some of that, i don’t tend to, i don’t tend to ask for a lot of those things, and it just comes down to like partly me as a person like I don’t, i I’ve done a lot of work around like the money stuff And and that’s still I’m still growing in that And sometimes those old, i don’t know fears or insecurities around asking some of those questions come up And and then I’m like I’m not gonna ask, we’re not gonna dive into that, but like you said, you know it is really helpful in like on.


You know, as a person who works, so like part of my job right is to like let’s get you, let’s create this course strategy to get you where your goals are. And sometimes those goals are monetary. A lot of times those goals are monetary And so it is part of my job to be able to ask questions about about the money and about the revenue and about the goals and like how much are you charging, how much do you want to charge, and, like you know, going down that lane. And so you know, there there is this sense of like. We do need to talk about that some, but whether or not I share those things like those are in my mind they’re too very separate.


Yeah, they are. We’re just going to say there is. There’s like the internal, like learning from your clients, you know what’s working. And then there’s like success stories, case studies, testimonials, And that’s where like that is where I understand I and I understand not wanting to talk about money anyway Like I, I’m not wired like that, but I get that not everyone is like me, just like we’re all different.


However, the testimonial thing I am very, very cognizant of, like making sure, if somebody tells me, like in Web designer pro, my coaching community, if somebody says I just landed a project for $10,000, I would love to put that everywhere and shout it off the mountain top and post it on social media.


But I’ve been very intentional to say would you mind, are you open to letting me maybe put this as a testimony or share it with the hopes of inspiring others who want to do this? It’s not a boastful thing, It’s not a braggy thing, It’s just like this is what’s possible. Are you open to let me share? And some people say, no, I prefer to keep it, you know, and I’m totally respectful of that. And same thing for, like web designs for your clients. There are going to be clients who are totally fine to say, yeah, your website helped me land $30,000 of extra business in a few months, And then some might be like, yeah, we don’t really want to talk about our numbers publicly. So I guess it’s it’s worthwhile expecting both responses right, Or expecting the different personality types to be involved with results.


Totally, And the time involved it takes to get, to get those results. You know, like on the course creation side, it’s like sometimes it’s three months, six months, 12 months before there’s actual hard and fast data to gather from some of those things, And so it’s not always going to be cut and dried.


And that leads to the point we were just talking about with where everyone’s at a different place in the journey. Like if I started a business now, being pretty well connected with a lot of different professionals and a big network, it’s going to be way easier for me to go pretty far pretty fast with the network already had built up. But when I was just entering into the business world coming from the band world with no business owners that I really knew, that’s why it took longer to get to a place where I built a professional network. So that’s a part of it too And that’s why, like we hit on earlier, the comparison game is really really dangerous And I mean, if anyone isn’t doing it now, just don’t don’t compare yourself to other designer. Everyone has a different story and goals and stuff. So yeah, it’s so important with results.


Like I’m kind of curious do you guys have a like a questionnaire that you present to clients, not only for you, erica, with your business, but for Shannon, the Web Designer Academy? like do you have a set of typical questions And do you ask, like, are you okay to talk about numbers or are you not okay to talk about numbers, or do you prefer to keep them hidden. I don’t know, do you guys have anything like that? Because I’m really considering setting something like that up for for my students as well and maybe making it, making it like a type form or like a conditional logic kind of thing that just puts them on a different path, so like if they’re cool talking about numbers.


Cool, Let’s talk revenue, let’s talk time. Let’s talk implementations. If they prefer to keep it hidden, then let’s talk about time back, freedom, the other stuff that may be not numbers based.


Yeah, in in WDA we do have a form that like an intake form when clients fill out, and part of that is sort of like it’s not exactly kind of what you’re talking about, but it’s really similar in like you know in the first 30 days what result do you want to create And there’s a few options that they can choose from And that kind of determines the pathway that we recommend for them to take.


And that’s a really great way for course creators to one learn exactly about their students, like learn, learn exactly what they want out of your course and what their expectations are for the course. But also it helps And I’m thinking, you know, in my like curriculum brain down the line, you’re going to be able to like go back and look at all of that data And, like, the majority of these students are expecting, you know, this one specific result And then you get to go look at is it actually creating that result And is everything that I the way that I’m talking about it? is it pointing to that result? And do I need to expand on some of the other things that are possible?


you know, in talking about some of these other avenues or goals that they can reach within the course Gotcha And this room, this kind of primes me for thinking about messaging and copy when it comes to selling something to eventually get a result, because often the messaging and copy I’ve found really dictate the type of people who are in it for certain results And that’s a very convoluted way to say.


I’ve kind of played around with adding six figures in my copy for helping people build a six-figure web design business Versus, or including a business that gets you freedom in a lifestyle you love. That’s the tagline of my show and that’s really when it came down to it for me as a web designer. I didn’t need six figures until I got married with the added expenses But I was able to get some freedom in a lifestyle that I wanted, even at making 50 to 75,000. But in most cases I found Wet in the Western countries at least you’re gonna need to make at least six figures to have any sort of freedom in a lifestyle that you want, in most cases depending on your expenses and everything. So I’ve kind of played around with that, adding like the numeric value of quote-unquote success again, but with always the goal of having freedom and lifestyle. I don’t know, do you have any thoughts on that, on like win and when not to include.


There were different types of results in messaging, like before somebody purchases a course or a program you know, i think, that people, i It comes down to, i think, really knowing your audience and then being willing to Experiment and sit with the experiment long enough to gather some data on whether or not it’s working. And so you know, using things like like you were talking about, you’ve done the time that, like the freedom and whatever, and so now switching that language to you know the, the monetary value, and then being willing to just like, let it kind of marinate for a bit and then you know seeing kind of how that works and paying Attention to things like the types of clients that are that it’s bringing in. How is it affecting, you know, my community as a whole? how has it changed these, this new wave of people? has it changed the dynamic and is it a Positive change or is it a negative change? Is it a neutral thing or whatever?


You know and and kind of looking at At those things, but also in terms of like I I guess that I guess part of what I’m saying is I wouldn’t necessarily get Like, go completely, like let’s not even talk about freedom or let’s not even talk about time at all, but more in the sense of you can create like this number amount so that you can Experience freedom and you know whatever that or whatever it is that your clients you know want to do. But then Quantifying what that looks like for them, the, the time, freedom and and you know whatever freedom it is that they’re looking for, and, like you know, having them quantify it in some kind of way, whether that’s on a scale or a percentage or whatever it might be, and then, down the line, surveying them again so that you can have those hard and fast numbers.


Yeah, i like your recommendation to test it out Because in that case, like in my case, of the elements that we’re talking about for me are six figures and Then freedom and time to our freedom and lifestyle to have that all integrated. So I could have one that’s just about the six figures, one That’s just about freedom and lifestyle, or in a lot of cases I have them together. So I have kind of played around with it and the reason I I am very tactful and I try to be careful with this is that some people Are very opposed to the six-figure lingo now And I think that’s probably because of all the entrepreneurial like make six figures tomorrow with