Why is it that pricing and estimating web design projects is so dang tricky?

Well it makes sense being that every web design project is different, clients have different budgets and expectations, there are so many variables with scope, size and functionality.

And let’s not forget that we as web designers often don’t truly understand or feel confident to price around our value…

So for all those reasons and more, estimating web design projects can be a draining part of the process.

But I hope today’s podcast episode helps alleviate all of those challenges and more.

I’m so excited to bring on founder of TheAdminBar.com (and the #1 WordPress community on Facebook) Kyle Van Deusen to the show as he shares what works for him when it comes to pricing and estimating web design projects.

We dig into:

Why short, brief proposals convert higher
When it’s appropriate to have a multi-page lengthy brochure style proposal
How to figure out your website price ranges
How beneficial it is to have an “average website cost” on your website
What to put as deliverables in your proposals

And a whole lot more estimating goodness.

Enjoy and cheers to the next proposal you put together being way easier!

In this episode:

00:00 – Pricing and Estimating Web Design Projects
05:25 – Web Design Pathways and Options
09:14 – Pricing Challenges in Web Design
13:47 – Determining Pricing Ranges and Finding Comfort
16:23 – Niche Focus and Pricing Strategies
25:39 – Pricing and Estimating Web Design Projects
35:36 – Effective Proposal Strategies for Freelancers
42:44 – Viewing Expenses as Investments
47:00 – Filtering Leads and Communicating Pricing
51:36 – Recurring Revenue in Web Design
1:02:28 – Join the Admin Bar Community

Join The Admin Bar Facebook Group


Connect with Kyle:

Featured links mentioned:

Episode #276 Full Transcription

Kyle: 

being on the same side of the table as the client, not across the table from them, right? So I use that analogy a lot in my thinking about sales and prospecting and stuff. It’s like how do I sit next to the client and work on them with this Instead of sitting across from them, kind of in that tug of war positioning, yeah. I feel like when we just asked them what’s your budget? And you know, I feel like it’s that sitting across the tables type of thing. So putting the range on my website has definitely helped a lot of people. 

Josh: 

Hey friends, two reasons I’m excited about this episode. One is the topic and one is my guess. Let’s start with the topic. We’re going to dive deep into how to price and estimate web design projects. This is one of the source spots for every web designer in the world. How the heck do we price a service that is so varied depending on the client and the project? So a lot of help coming your way with how to price your services and how to estimate projects. Number two is my guest I’m so excited to. Finally, why is it taking this long? I’m so excited to finally have Kyle van Dussen on the podcast. If you’re in the realm of WordPress, he probably needs no introduction because he is the founder of the number one WordPress community on Facebook, the admin bar. You can also check his website out at the admin barcom, which has some incredible content, some really really nice products, including including products to help with proposals. Here’s a nice little pipe time challenge. Some of the things we’re going to talk about here in this episode we get into on the resources that you can find there. He’s also the founder of one of the most popular guides for getting more WordPress maintenance plans, the website owner’s manual, the admin barcom is where you can connect with him. It was such a fun time getting a chat with Kyle and have him on the show and to really dive deep into proposals, pricing and estimates. One thing I love about Kyle, too, is because not only is he a teacher like myself helping web designers, but he’s also still very active with his own web design business. His web design business is called Ogil web design. You can find that at Ogil webcom Ogal webcom, and one thing we talk about the reason I want to bring that up before we dive in is because he actually shares in his pricing page on his website his average price cost, which is such a benefit with helping you estimate your pricing. So we’re going to get to that as we dive in, but really excited to bring Kyle on here Again. What a pleasure having him on, and if you have not yet joined the admin bar on Facebook, I highly recommend it. It really is such an engaged, helpful group. I’m a creeper in there. Right now I’m not posting anything, but I am creeping, so I’m watching you. If you join that group, join us in there. And again, without further ado, here is Kyle from the admin bar. Let’s talk proposals, pricing and estimating. Well, kyle, long overdue man, welcome to the show. Good to finally chat one-on-one with you for a little while.

Kyle: 

Yeah, I’m really excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me and being patient as I tried to get my schedule to line up and work for us. Yeah.

Josh: 

Most of our chat over the last few months has been about you recently moving. I did that last year and I told you I still feel like I’m recovering, so glad to see you’re settled in. You got your sound panels. You’re ready to rock man Looking good Feeling much better.

Kyle: 

Not a hundred percent, but we’re 99%. And I figured the boxes that are left that haven’t been unpacked yet. They’re just never getting unpacked. They’re just going to live that way forever. I’m pretty sure It’ll be a good year?

Josh: 

Probably, yeah. Can we also just start out with a tip for everyone who moves as a web designer and business owner to because we were talking about this point hip record, you said you took like three days off, exactly right, yeah.

Kyle: 

So our drive was from Texas to Virginia Three little kids. It took us three days to make that drive. So we were going to leave on a Wednesday, get here on a Friday and then I’d have the weekend. So I took the three days off of work to drive here and then the weekend off and I just thought I’ll be back to work Monday morning. And it did not work that way. Looking back and saying that out loud now it seems ridiculous, but that was like my plan for months going into it and it was not a great plan, I feel like there’s a very real option for moving coaches in the world Now to help you plan, prepare and get the most out of your time with moving.

Josh: 

Because, yeah, I would advise you have at least a week or two weeks after you move to get settled in and to just readjust. I found that out too. I did really good prepping for it but I was like, why did I think I would just hop right back into things right as a move. So there’s lesson number one of the day.

Kyle: 

Yeah, that’s not. That’s not good planning for sure. But you know, when you own your own business, you feel like you have to be back at work just as soon as possible, you know. So I think it was part like just me putting pressure on myself to get back in the saddle and be back to working again.

Josh: 

Yeah, Now for those who don’t know you, kyle and I’m still honestly kind of getting to know you and your story as a whole you have one of the top rated and one of, frankly, the best communities in WordPress, the admin bar. You have a free Facebook group for that, which is awesome, incredible resources. And then you’re also what do you, what do you consider yourself with your web design business? Do you consider yourself a freelancer, a solopreneur? Are you a true business owner as a web designer? What do you call yourself? I know I usually ask what people’s titles are, but what do you call yourself in your web services?

Kyle: 

This is like the agency pronoun question. Yeah, so I’m not a big fan of promoting myself as a freelancer, although that’s basically how I function in my business. I am a solopreneur agency of one. I have a couple of freelancers that I employ every now and then that probably also don’t call themselves freelancers, but I just did it for them. So, but for the most part, it’s just me and my business. I’m not interested in building up a big team or anything like that. I got enough responsibility as is, without having to make sure somebody else is getting fed, so I’ve purposely kept that small. So I started my agency back in 2017. And then the admin bar was started in 2018. So just about a year later after I really discovered the awesome community that’s around WordPress. So at this point, my time’s about split half and half. I spend about half my time on the agency and about half the time inside the admin bar and the various things we got going on there. So it’s a little bit of everything at this point.

Josh: 

Well, you just answered my next question. I was wondering how the heck you do both, because you’re very active from what I say in the admin bar. So I figured you had either scaled up in a way that probably is a little more premium on the website side, where I imagine you’re taking less clients but perhaps more quality projects, and in this conversation we’re actually going to get into pricing and estimating. It’s such a hot topic, but that is interesting. The cool thing about that is there’s no right or wrong path. I’d be curious right up front to get your take on this, because I’ve been teaching a lot of my students inside of my community Web Designer Pro that you could be a freelancer. There’s really a few different paths that I’ve discovered, which is freelancer doing all the work, getting all the projects, doing everything yourself. A solopreneur to where you’re a little more focused on the business, your systems, scaling slightly just like you’re doing, hiring a few people, and then a Web Design Business Owner to where you are really most working on your business. You’re not even diving into WordPress or doing the nitty gritty, and all paths are fine and I feel like there’s a time and a place for that. So I don’t know well initially what’s your thoughts about the landscape now with Web Design, with that idea that you could kind of do whatever you want? I mean, I think that’s the beauty of this business.

Kyle: 

I’m actually really, really bothered by kind of the absolutist type people. A lot of them are the really loud YouTube types that will say there’s this one way to do it, right, this is how you do it and this is how it should be done, and everything else should be disregarded. And I think that’s such a disservice to our industry, but WordPress in particular, because it kind of sets up this unique intersection of business and web development and all kinds of things. But I think that’s the beauty of it. So for me, I worked 15 years as a graphic designer in brick and mortar businesses for somebody else and helped make them really rich and made my life miserable. And so my wife. She ended up opening up her own business and I was very jealous of the freedom she got from that, making her own schedule, doing the kinds of projects she wanted to do and the things she wanted to do. I’m like, okay, I got to get there. So at the time I was working in sign shops and opening up a sign shop is very expensive, like $100,000 printers. We didn’t have $100,000 for sure. So I started looking at different ways I might be able to become self-employed and that’s how I kind of found web, and that’s what I love about this business is I’ve been able to design a business just the way I want it. I want to work from home. So boom, I got a home office. Nobody cares that I work from home, especially. You know this was pre-COVID, but now really nobody cares if you work from home. You know, I want to be able to wear a casual attire all day. That’s good too. I want to work the hours I want to work. I want to be able to spend more time with my family. I want to take on projects that I enjoy and where I can really help people. And I’ve just got to. You know that didn’t happen overnight, obviously, but I’ve got to craft this business and mold it to come up with exactly what I want. So at this point, when I’m doing the admin bar half the time, I don’t have to take on every project that comes into the agency. I can be really picky and choosy about that, and I’ve been able to grow recurring revenue and really focus on those things where it doesn’t take my attention 24 seven, but I can help sustain myself off of that. So I think that’s the beauty of this business is there’s not one path. There’s so many ways to do it and so many ways you could find success in it, and it just depends on what you, what you classify as success and that looks. That looks different for all of us.

Josh: 

That’s well said, man. The other thing to that, too, that I’ve found is sometimes it’s just the season of life you’re in, or your goals or aspirations when they change. Like I was really content being a solopreneur for seven years as a web designer. I went from freelancer to being a solopreneur, doing most everything my own, until I started having a family and started this personal brand and doing courses, and I was like there’s no way I have time to do courses and everything I want to do with teaching web design and do everything I’m doing in my business. So I kind of just grew into a place where I scaling was more appealing. But to your point, there are the quote unquote influencers and, I guess, thought leaders who are like scale now, scale quick, build your business up, you know, at all costs, just grow your numbers. And the problem with that actually met a guy recently who had a very successful like multi six figure I think, actually seven figure web design agency but he burned out and staff of like 25 people and he hated it and he just was unhealthy. He got, he got really unhealthy, like he just actually wanted to try to have him on the podcast to share what he learned in that experience. But all that to say wonderful point, man. It’s amazing opportunity for web design to do what you want to do and have success, whatever that means to you Like most of us started our own business because we didn’t want to work those jobs we hated.

Kyle: 

So there’s no use in creating creating a job you hate in the end. And I’m not a big fan of managing people, so I don’t want to grow a big team, because that’s all I like to do oh, that’s awesome and well, speaking of not hating a job, I hating an aspect of the job pricing and estimates and proposals.

Josh: 

I found that to be one of the top questions, which I totally understand. It’s, and I think it’s because with web design, unless you have a product, ties and templatized service, it is going to be. There’s a lot of variables that change, like I have I, in 10 years of building websites, I never had projects that were exactly the same. They’re always different. I’m happy to share some of my thoughts, but I want to turn it over to you, kyle, like why? I guess the quick question is like why is estimating projects for websites so hard?

Kyle: 

Yeah, I mean, it’s hard for a lot of us because we became web designers, because we were total nerds for making websites, not because we were business geniuses that went to MIT and knew how to run a business, right. So we’re coming in from, we’re coming into this from the wrong side of it to be able to really be, you know, a profitable business. It’s harder to do when you’re making it up on the fly, right? And a lot of us have imposter syndrome and think I don’t have $5,000 to spend on a website, so why would anybody else give me $5,000 to spend on a website, right? So there’s a lot of those things that go into it, but we’re also we’re never comparing apples to apples like your experience and your process for building websites and the things you’ll take your clients through and the services you provide and the level of detail. I don’t know if it’s better or worse than mine, but it’s different than mine, so there’s no way we can price things the same. Then we start talking about okay, well, what’s our business expenses? I work from home, in my home office. I’m all by myself. Nothing is too luxurious. I can be pretty lean, right? You might have a completely different situation where you got 15 people working for you and just to turn the lights on for an hour. It’s several thousand dollars, you know. So those things are completely different. Then we start talking about the clients we’re serving. You know, I could, I could give a $5,000 quote for a 10 page website. We’re just throwing numbers out here, right A five, a 10 page website $5,000, I could give that to one company who would look at that and say, oh my god, we couldn’t spend $500 on this. And I could give that same quote to another company that said $5,000, I would never hire somebody that charges that little because I don’t trust what you’d be able to provide me, right. So there’s, there’s just a huge wide spectrum there. So I think the hard part is like figuring out where do you fit in this pricing structure. You know that’s that. That’s nothing but experience that will teach you. I don’t think there’s anything. Anybody can come in and just point you in the right direction. You got to kind of. You got to live through those, I think.

Josh: 

Well, I do have a lesson on that in my business course on ranges, but it is hard, I mean, and what I teach in that is basically like there are these different ranges but, to your point, Kyle, there are so many different variables, it is not a right or wrong thing. It’s like what works for you, kind of right now in your business, with where you’re at, with your current expenses, as as you like. As you get more expenses personally and family grows, you get a bigger house, then your prices are probably going to increase in your ranges are going to be different. So it is really it’s. I think that’s why it’s tough, because there is not a right or wrong way to go about it. And you’re the most important thing that I think you said there, Kyle, is like for your clients or leads, we should say some people are going to be upset and offended and appalled that you charged $5,000 for 10 pages and then same other people are different. People are going to be like, yeah, only at $5,000. So how did you, how did you get comfortable in your price ranges where they are now? And you’re welcome If you want to talk numbers or not solely, fine, but with whatever you’ve you’ve landed on with your website stuff now, before we may be given to the nitty gritty of estimating like how did you find the ranges that worked for you?

Kyle: 

So I guess part of this was like I had to feel comfortable saying the number out loud, right? So if I couldn’t comfortably say the number to a client, there was no way they’re going to buy it. You know if, if I was dancing around at the whole time during our conversations and you know, if I couldn’t say it confidently, they, they certainly weren’t going to buy it. So you know, over time you build more confidence and then you save bigger numbers with with more comfort. But it’s also learning more about your business, the amount of time it takes you to do things, who you have to bring in. You know where you dig in on projects and where maybe you you tell a client they have to work with a copywriter. Let’s say, right, maybe I’m not going to even touch the copywriting, we’re going to hire somebody else and that’s between you and them, you know. So you have to figure out a lot of those processes within your business to figure out, okay, how can I do this and feel profitable or not feel profitable, but be profitable at the end of the day and feel good about the work I’m doing. So again, a lot of that is just experience, doing this and figuring it out, and really, I think one thing we don’t do enough of is going back to past projects that we finished and saying, okay, where did we do good and where did we mess up? And let’s, let’s assess this right. So at one point I created a essentially like a postmortem form for all my projects where I would go through and say, okay, there was like 15 questions to it and I would have to answer as truthfully I could about, you know, self-evaluating, how did this project go? You know, did I estimate it well? Did I predict some of the hiccups? You know that would eventually happen. How was the client? You know all these kinds of things. And so I would start scoring these projects over time and starting to figure out like, okay, where are the trends where I’m doing a good job, when do I have some room for improvement? And I think, unless you, unless you reflect on those things, you just kind of keep going with your gut and I’ll be honest, and I think Probably not enough people are honest about this. A lot, a lot of the pricing, especially in the beginning, is just making shit up. Sorry, I don’t know if I can say oh yeah, cuss away, we’re all. It’s just making stuff up, right, you’re throwing something out there and kind of seeing if it will stick. You know, and I did that a ton and it wasn’t until I got really confident about what are my processes, how does a project go through my company Until I knew all that it was. It was really just making things up.

Josh: 

Well, the other aspect to pricing and estimating is there’s another half of the the project, that is, your client and a lot, as we know, as web designers, the biggest hang up is content collection. A back from that is usually scope creep and those two things are so largely dependent on our client and their personality. Are they organized? What like? What type, you know like, what type of business owner are they? So how do you factor that and do you have you learned to almost like, weed out and factor in personality, type of clients and with pricing?

Kyle: 

Yeah, I’m gonna say this knowing I have a little bit of privilege in that I don’t have to take on every project. I’m not. I’m not dying for work, right, because I have a couple different things going on which is really helpful and I can say no to projects. But for me, a huge mind shift was, once I could, I could go into a meeting Thinking this is a no until you convinced me it’s a yes as far as me taking on this project right. Like I didn’t go into these prospect meetings dying for this work. Once I could get to the point where, like, I’m gonna say this is probably a no until I get really excited about this project, that’s made a huge shift for me, because then I can be a lot more particular about the types of clients that I’m taking on Over time too. I think a huge part of it is just realizing, like, where do you shine right? Like what kind of projects are you good at? And I figured out Okay, these are the types of clients I work with best, these are types of projects I work on work with best, and I’m just gonna focus on those now. It’s you know, at some point you got to start saying no to everything else, which is the hard part to do, but it’s that kind of niching down and being able to do all your marketing to those audiences that makes a huge difference. And what? Once you figure out where that sweet spot is, you just get a lot more of those good ones Coming in and you realize if somebody doesn’t fit this exact persona, I’m just gonna say no to it now, do you don’t niche by a certain industry, right, kyle?

Josh: 

Do you niche just more by, like types of website builds? Yeah, it’s, it’s a.

Kyle: 

So I’ve I’ve explored with this a lot. I wouldn’t I wouldn’t call me any kind of expert on niching. I have some types of businesses I prefer to work with. So somebody comes in to me and they’re some sort of software company or they have something related to WordPress, some kind of WordPress product. Those are the projects I get really, really excited about, hmm, and I have some information about that on my website, but it’s not. This is all we do. However, I’m very into website performance. I use the block editor. I know you hate it, but and I’m not gonna convince anybody and nothing no, I want to like it.

Josh: 

That’s the problem. I want to like, I just hate it. I hate it right now.

Kyle: 

Yeah, I mean it’s there’s, there’s a million ways to WordPress, right? So I don’t use all the core blocks. I actually use a generate press and generate blocks, so I’m using kind of a party add-on for it. I’ve gotten really into that. I started creating content on it. I got really into performance and getting awesome core web vital scores and started doing content on that and I realized, hey, there’s a big market of people that are actually googling like how do I make my website faster? How do I, you know, do these things? And I started getting in tons of leads for those types of projects. So mainly what I’m focused on is building some you know, building highly performance-minded websites with the block editor and, although that that pool of potential clients isn’t big, it’s big enough for me. It’s like more than I could ever handle, so it’s totally fine for me as an inch.

Josh: 

Good call. That’s another good point. Web designers said this probably a million times on the podcast so far. You don’t need to appeal to everybody like web designers can have a couple dozen clients and have a healthy six-figure business or whatever that looks like for you if you’re serving them over and over and you know providing a really good service and doing higher-end type projects. And I think it’s interesting even just your copy on your website, like your focus on quality websites, optimal performance, seo and accessibility, that’s gonna bring in a certain type of person rather than Somebody who knows nothing about websites and they don’t even know what you just said and not that they may not be a client, but you are. It is kind of an interesting way to knit with just simple messaging and copy, just kind of sharing the details of projects. You don’t need to say I only work with SaaS companies and WordPress or whatever it is. That is a great way to filter people out.

Kyle: 

Yeah, I was having a conversation with somebody recently. They they asked for some feedback on their website and some of the critiques I had for them was Based on the type of audience they’re going after. I thought their website was way too technical. It had a lot of the same phrases my website has on it, right? So things that are more technical. It was something this web developer knew really well but his clients probably wouldn’t know very well, and that’s what he pushed back with, like well, that’s what’s all over your website. I said, yeah, but I’m, I’m going after somebody different, right? So if somebody comes to my website and they have no idea what these things mean, then they’re probably not a good fit for me, right? So I’ve kind of purposely, you know, raised the bar for the barrier of entry on, like somebody’s technical knowledge before they come work with me.

Josh: 

It’s my website’s just not gonna attract, you know, joe the plumber that doesn’t know anything about websites, which is what I want and have you found that verbiage in the lingo you have on your site to help bring in Clients that have a bit of a healthier budget or maybe who are more business minded or tech savvy? Or are you getting people who are like developers, who they have like zero budget or all the above?

Kyle: 

Well, there’s a little bit of all of it, I think. I think what’s helped me is being with some more technical businesses and being it, you know, working with some more software companies and stuff like that that are kind of in our space. They’re they’re they’re running legitimate businesses making pretty legitimate money, so they’re expecting to spend a lot more. Now I’m not the most expensive shop in town and I honestly don’t like doing huge Gigantic projects anyways. So I kind of found the range where I like to work and some clients that fit in that range and that works for me. But yeah, I think obviously the messaging you have on your website definitely attracts the right people but as just importantly, it should Repel the wrong people, right the if somebody comes on your website and it doesn’t connect, that’s really important too and you should be thinking about those things as well.

Josh: 

Yeah, I’ve heard it said. Well, recently somebody said you, you want to dissuade the people who are not a good fit. Yeah, to just so like, we’re just not. It’s you know nothing personal. We’re just not a good fit for you. You’re probably not a good fit for us. You mentioned range. Is there, kyle, do you have? Because I’ll just share really briefly my methodology and what I use when it came to figuring out, like when you’re thinking about estimating is Is it, you know, a hundred dollars or is it ten thousand or twenty thousand dollars? It’s such a big range. What I learned to do is to have three ranges. What worked for me personally was to have a range that was between twenty five hundred dollars at the starting point and five thousand for the small businesses, five thousand to ten thousand for most of my medium-sized sites and small business owners, and then ten thousand plus for e-commerce sites, bigger sites, but I would usually never go enterprise like twenty thirty plus For the reasons you just said. Those are generally a whole other can of worms, depending. I mean, some people can you know you could start at that level and still have higher quality messaging, copy, design, whatever. But that’s what worked for me that way. When it came to estimating, I could tell pretty quickly Okay, this lead is a small, this is a small tier client, or this is a middle tier, or if it’s an e-commerce shop, we’re going right towards 10k plus. Do you have anything similar or how do you? I guess the question is like what’s? You don’t have to say numbers if you don’t prefer, but what? How do you structure your ranges and how do you filter people in to help estimating?

Kyle: 

Yeah, I wish I could say I had like a master plan that that I devised to make all this work. I think the truth of it is I kind of figured this out over time. So I kind of figured out the scope of projects that I felt comfortable working on. As somebody who’s going to work solo 99% of the time, I don’t want to hire a bunch of experts in different, different Parts of our industry and I can only know so much about different things, right. So I had to get really clear about kind of the scope of the projects I’d work on, the types of clients I’d want to work with and what I needed to bring in to make a living for my family. So it’s kind of like you picture, this is a big VIN diagram and where does, where do all these things crossover, right? So I actually, you know I’ve gone back and forth on putting pricing on your website and all that. What I ended up landing on doing here fairly recently was putting what my project minimum is, which is about $3,500, and that’s going to get you, you know, basically a One-page website, maybe with a little bit of help on there. Then I put my average project price. So I’ve gone through and done all my average projects for the past year. So I my 2022, which is just under $8,000, and so that just encompasses all the projects I did last year, just to give people a range. So so they don’t Book a call with me and think it’s $500 when we’re not even gonna start. Start Gotcha.

Josh: 

That’s beautiful. Yeah, I just saw on your pricing page Very, very cool. That’s a different approach. I like that. So it’s open, but it also gives a people. I guess it’s comparable to what I have in place as far as like the range is. It’s just. I like that idea of an average. I guess it would depend too. It sounds like you’re a little more. You’re bringing in people who are probably on often a level playing field if they’re getting past your first. We doubt filter and you know you just wait to the people who maybe aren’t a good fit. So that’s a really cool approach. I like that. We’ll make sure we link that page in the show notes too, just as a starting point. Average project I love that too, because sometimes you get those enterprise style clients who again they would be the ones who are like Average is only 8,000, like are you gonna be a good fit for us and maybe not. Like the thing about those enterprise projects is like a 15,000, 20,000 dollar project sounds great, but are you working with like a board now and there’s, like you know, five contacts you have to report to and then you’re basically an employee there for like three months. I would so rather knock out three $5,000 websites in that time.

Kyle: 

That goes back to your point about. You know what kind of you get to build this business the way you want right, and I’ve done some of those really big projects and as a one-man show that’s really hard to do and balance everything else you have going on and you know, try to have all the expertise you need. Some projects are just better suited for a big team of people to come in and knock out and so I’m totally fine with missing out on those projects. They’re not a good fit for me.

Josh: 

Good call. And when it comes to estimating, I know you don’t have an exact system here, although you do have a resource that we can mention here. You have like a spreadsheet kind of calculator, kind of thing, like. One question I have for all web designers is how do you estimate? Because it’s like you said in the beginning, it’s different for everybody and there’s no right or wrong answer to this. But Do you estimate by scope in the way of like, functionality, scope in the way of page count, scope in the way of Client training, like if they’re going to be using the website? Do you? Do you estimate it based off of like? If a site is a new brand or Redesign, what are the, what are the variables within scope?

Kyle: 

Yeah, there’s a little bit of all of that, so what? What I was really struggling with was again kind of throwing out numbers and and Not being consistent about that, but I would often get like the imposter syndrome where I’d go God, this, this really sounds like a $12,000 project, but I don’t know if they’re gonna go for $12,000. So, maybe I bring it down to 10 and then, once we get into the project and we get knee deep in and I realized, oh my god, 12 wasn’t even gonna be.

Josh: 

Over my head yeah.

Kyle: 

So I ended up. You know I think it’s really hard to just price websites via a calculator, but I think it’s. I think for me it’s been really handy as a Sanity check, right. So I built a calculator that essentially go in there and count the number of pages. You know, am I doing design? Am I doing development? Is there dynamic content? How is the content coming? As a client supplying the content, am I supplying the content? Are we working on the content together? So a lot of these different factors I can put all into this calculator. And I worked, essentially worked backwards. I I put in past projects into the calculator. So I filled in all the stuff for projects I did in the past and saw what, what numbers. The calculator spit it out and I said, okay, well, that’s a thousand dollars less than I charge, and this project I don’t think I charged enough. So let me fiddle with these numbers a little bit and I got them, you know, ended up dialing them in by using past projects as an example. So now I use that anytime a project comes in, I put everything into the calculator and it gives me a starting point and I go okay, we’re somewhere in this ballpark range, because I like to get that information to the client as soon as possible. I don’t want them, I don’t want my proposal to them, to be the first time there we’re talking about price together. I’d rather talk about price on the very first call. So if we’re not on the same page, then we can. We can figure that out right now and not waste each other’s time. So the calculator is great and me being able to get off an initial phone call, spend 10 minutes pumping something into a calculator and say, okay, we’re gonna be between 10 and 15 for this project. I’m very confident and I can let that client know that and that gives me kind of a starting place to use, use all my critical thinking to really develop a price. You know it’s. It’s similar to what we’re seeing in AI. Right, you can’t just put something into chat, gpt and copy and paste the result. It’s not great at that, but it is really good at giving you some ideas and getting you in a range and getting you started. So that’s kind of the same way I use the calculator.

Josh: 

That’s a great point, what you hit there. I’m so in alignment with you, kyle, on that, because the big conflict for all I guess all design agencies is do you have pricing up front or is it hidden and you just bring it on somebody? The hybrid approach is just what we’re talking about Having ranges, but it may be a level back, like it’s probably on a discovery call, or I have a potential client page that I send kind of questionable leads to. That way, they at least see the ranges and if they’re cool with ranges, then we can go forward with a more detailed proposal and then try to explain the value before they see a ten thousand dollar mark, for example. Where is that calculator, by the way, do you have that on the admin bar?

Kyle: 

So, yeah, it’s on the admin bars website. There’s a drop down for products and it’s part of the agency air table pack. So I’m a huge air table nerd, so I’ve built a bunch of air table bases and there’s like six bases in there Project management and all kinds of things that I use inside my agency, and one of those is the, the price estimator.

Josh: 

Okay, cool. Well, I’m sure we leak that in the show notes, because that is what a resource man, what a great way to have at least, like you said, a starting point. Because if you don’t and it does come with experience, like I, was able to basically price projects in my head after a while, but particularly those first few years it’s a very thin line between getting so nitty gritty on every deliverable, every little line item, but you also don’t want to I guess you don’t want to go too broad or too vague. How do you balance that with the actual proposal? How do you share with clients what is covered but also avoid scope creep, when they’re like, oh, by the way, we wanted to add a calendar with RSVP functionality and you’re like, oh, we didn’t talk about that, so we need to charge extra for that. Like, how do you? Yeah, I guess the short question is like how do you protect yourself from scope creep but also have enough in the proposal? Would it not be overwhelming?

Kyle: 

Yeah, proposals are such a that’s a whole can of worms too. So I’ve gone through several iterations on that. So I came up with a proposal system that’s essentially filling up. Like I hate writing proposals. Like if I’m excited about a project, I just want to start working on it. Like if I didn’t need money to pay for this house and to like eat and keep clothes on my kids, I would just do the projects that are fun because I love doing this, right, but I have to make money doing it. So when a project comes in that’s exciting, I just want to get to work. I don’t want to write a proposal. I absolutely hate doing it. I hate going through proposals. When somebody else has to send me one Like I don’t know it’s. It feels like a waste of time. Let’s get started. So I ended up creating a essentially fill in the blank style template for a proposal, which is very matter of fact, it works really well for my clients. I’m not sure this works well for everybody’s clients, but in there I essentially have some kind of little intro. But I have a formula for the intro where I know I’m going to put this, this and this, and that that kind of helps me formulate that, even as far as scope creep type thing, I put in there the it’s a lot of scope of work type document. That’s essentially what my proposal is. It’s like we’re going to create this, this number of pages, we’re going to create this number of templates, and then we have the known functionality. So I’ll list all the functionality. If it’s going to have, you know, a calendar or contact forms or whatever, I’ll put all that functionality in there. I will also specifically call out all the functionality that’s not included in the website. This has been really important for me to be able to, like you can sniff out where these projects might go right, like this is not going to include email or domain. So that goes in my boilerplate one, because I don’t want somebody. You know how many times we worked with small business and they’re like oh, what do you? How does my email work? Well, we never talked about email and I don’t host email anyways, right? So putting in there the things that I know are not included. So we try to get really, really clear about that from the beginning. I don’t itemize all those things as far as pricing, but I do itemize them as far as this is what’s included, this is what’s not included. So we have the chance to go over all that during the proposal phase. But if it comes down to it later in the project and there’s something that comes up that’s not in that scope of work, I just say, hey, listen, we didn’t quote for this. Here was the original scope work. We need to price this out and it’s that’s worked really well for me. But again, like so many of these things, it’s it’s what works for you and what works for your type of clients that really matters.

Josh: 

It sounds eerily familiar from what I have in my business course and what I did, which is a very simplistic outline of the scope of work. I can’t tell you how beneficial that was for me and my clients, because what I found with a lot of other agencies and other freelance web designers is they would have this like 18 page PDF. That was basically a website brochure with the proposal tucked in at the back, and I’m like I mean, I guess they work. I had one colleague who landed a $30,000 e-commerce job off of one of those proposals. But I was like my clients they don’t want to sift through 30 pages. They already know like and, trust me, like you said, we’re ready to go. Let’s go Like. What is it? What’s the investment? Let’s move. And one thing I learned too hopefully this is helpful for folks if they’re debating whether you want to have a more full fledged, built out, super fancy, nicely proposal or just a little one or two page document that’s like a list of scope, is a lot of these marketing directors and people in a position where they need to take it to a CEO or somebody to actually pay the bill. It has to be something that’s shareable, that they can share. They’re like, okay, this guy, kyle, is awesome. We really want to work with them. Here’s a proposal. The CEO doesn’t need to skim through 30 pages, it’s just okay. There’s a proposal, that’s what it covers and that list of deliverables. That is the. That’s the safeguard for scope creeps. So yeah, I’m basically just backing everything up. You said that was my experience, which is why I like a more simplistic approach.

Kyle: 

Yeah, and for me it’s been so great because now I don’t spend two days writing a proposal full of marketing fluff, which absolutely drained me. Now it literally 15 to 20 minutes I’m done with a proposal. And I’m not sending a proposal to a client until I’m like 90% sure they’re going to sign it anyways. So there’s no surprise. We’ve already talked about the scope and meetings. We’ve already talked about the price ranges and meetings. I’ve already confirmed that they’re comfortable in that price range. So there’s no surprises. By the time we get it, it’s more of a formality of like. Here’s what we’re agreeing on. Let’s get started.

Josh: 

Yeah, hell yeah, dude, the other thing you said there. You just kind of glanced over it, but what a great thought. You don’t want to like remarket to them on the proposal Like they’ve already seen your website. Probably they’ve already seen your work. They probably already saw social media or your networking group, however you meant, so you don’t need to like resell them. It really is a matter of what. Really, what I found with the proposals is it’s not anything about you, it’s all about them. So what I did with my lead in message, before they saw the outline of deliverables, was the project goals and the results that we had planned to get with this new design. That’s it Project goals and results, proposal, payment contract invoice let’s go. Yeah, yeah, it was as simple as that. I mean, really. It’s funny because I speaking of imposter syndrome we didn’t call it that back in like 2010 when I started, but I saw these fancy proposals and when I did some night classes at the community college and they showed examples of like design proposals and they were again where these like 30 page brochures to our proposals and I was like I don’t measure up to this at all, like I just have this little bullet list. But more and more I’ve realized the power of an outline bullet list. It’s so easy to understand. Clients get it. Clients are busy and again, we don’t need to sell to them again.

Kyle: 

Make it about them, make it simple, make it so clear, and it’s a beautiful world that way I could see, maybe, if you’re doing like a lot of RFPs where you weren’t going to have much interaction, it was just going to be they were going to put three proposals on a desk and decide between of them Maybe then it makes more sense. But I’m kind of like you at the opening of my proposal. There’s the little intro I talked about. There’s a formula for that and it’s basically like what problem is the client facing, when are they now and what is the solution I’m proposing to them? And it’s quick, you know three small paragraphs, Maybe 200, 300 words, usually in the end. But it’s just for them to go okay. Yeah, this guy totally gets it and I think that’s enough to hook them in there. As far as, like sales you need to do, they just want to make sure you understand what are we trying to accomplish here. You know, and I think if you can do that concisely, you’re in good.

Josh: 

I think you just hit the nail on the head, kyle. You blew my mind with that statement of the RFP thing. Because for anyone who doesn’t know, a request for a proposal is generally like an agency or a business will put out a request for a proposal and they’re going to get a ton of these. So they may not have an existing relationship with you, they probably didn’t meet you at a chamber of commerce or they haven’t seen your website. So if they just see a proposal, then yeah, that makes sense that it is kind of half sales, half proposal. I only ever did a couple of those. One was for a local chamber of commerce and it was that same deal. No one there knew me so I had to give a little bit of information about my agency at that time. But for the average freelancer and solopreneur, we again we just don’t need to sell to them like that. So I guess that’s a really good distinction. Only have like a full fledged. Maybe there’s two versions, maybe there’s like a whole honker proposal that has the information. That’s kind of like a little mini website that would go to like an RFP or just get right to it if they already know, like and trust you. So it’s a really good distinction between those two.

Kyle: 

So much of it is just knowing, like, what works for you, right? What are you comfortable with? Because I couldn’t even pass off one of those 30 page fluffy things with confidence. And if I can’t do it with confidence, nobody’s buying it. That’s 100% you know. And what do your customers expect? You know all of our customers are different and there’s there are probably big companies that expect to get that 30 page fluffy proposal and that’s just not a good fit for my business and that’s totally cool.

Josh: 

Yeah, no, that’s a great point. I love this theme of just going back to like do what you want to do in your business and get the clients you want to work with and run it your way. I also really like something you said earlier which I want to bring back up, which is the feeling comfortable of talking about price. I mean, that’s a whole nother discussion. We could probably take this in like 10 different podcast episodes. But money mindset when it comes to proposals is tricky because, like you said, you may feel like this should be a $12,000 project, but I, some sweating, saying $12,000. Now, as you know, kyle, a lot of web designers find out. You get to a point where it’s like, yeah, only $12,000 for this, 100% there should be like 20. I don’t know, do you have any tips on feeling comfortable about a higher price point for you? If you’re not comfortable with that price point because I’ll just share my thoughts real quick and turn it over to you I’ve told my students more recently your money mindset is not your clients money mindset. So 12, they have 12 grand might sound like a ridiculous amount to you, but for them that might be a great starting point. So what do you have any thoughts on that?

Kyle: 

If you’re just feeling comfortable with a higher number, I mean you have to put the reps in to feel comfortable, right, especially like I didn’t come from money, so $5,000 for anything is very expensive to me. I’m not. I don’t often open up my wallet and spend $5,000. So if I’m looking at from that perspective, I’m in a lot of trouble, right, Because it’s going to be hard for me to, you know, connect with that very well. One huge thing for me was I really wanted to get to the point where I wasn’t talking with the. I didn’t want to be doing my dealings with the person who was opening their personal wallet to spend their money with me, because then they’re in the same boat as me, like it’s having to come out of my wallet and hand to you and it’s really hard to pry that money out of my hands. I wanted to be working with an employee of the business where this is the boss’s credit card. You know what I mean. We’re a little bit looser with that, right. So it becomes easier when you’re dealing, when you’re not dealing with the person that’s spending the money directly out of their wallet, and sometimes that still is the business owner. But the business owner, you know, has a big distinction between their personal finances and the business finances right, so it’s usually a more mature business I really struggle with, like the owner operator type businesses, so I wouldn’t be a good fit for my own business. But owner operator type businesses is really hard to break some of those price barriers. But you know, as far as saying those prices and feeling confident with it, you know you level up every time you do it right. So the first time you say $1,000, it probably feels a little weird. But as soon as somebody says yes to that, you’ll never want to say $999 again like your prices started a thousand now because you feel good about it. And that keeps happening over and over. Eventually you get to a point where you feel good about it or at least that’s my experience where I don’t hesitate to say numbers. They’re not numbers I would spend on a website, but I can build a website myself.

Josh: 

Exactly, exactly.

Kyle: 

You know. So that really has no bearing on it. So I think it’s getting you got to push yourself. If you’re not where you want to be, you got to keep pushing yourself, just to feel a little bit uncomfortable about it. But the more confidence you can go in with those numbers, the easier it is for people to say yes.

Josh: 

Well, and I found a confidence booster. Ironically is when you have a couple of projects back to back that have horrible scope creep and then you’re like, screw it, I’m never doing a thousand dollars, ever again. I’m starting at 5,000 now, that’s right. That’s right. Oh yeah, that’s good. So have you? Do you try to frame proposals and estimates as investment minded? And it’s really hard to change a client’s mindset if they’re like expense minded or investment minded. But I really tried to work on that. I learned the power of that over the years because I learned to myself that, similar to you, I didn’t come from money. So anytime I spent money on anything, everything was a cost. It was like every you know, if I were to spend a thousand dollars on a website, I feel like that was leaving my wallet and it would never return to me. And then I’ve realized now, as a business owner 100% it is an investment as long as it works and comes back to me. So this thousand dollar investment should come back 10, a hundredfold. Do you do anything in the way of kind of like showcasing the investment mindset in your services and just kind of proven the value and the results?

Kyle: 

I think there’s a lot to that there. But you know, I do think in my proposal it does say like your investment instead of like the cost of the website. So there’s some like subtle things in there. But, honestly, if we’re to the point of giving them a proposal and we have to convince them that the website’s an investment and not a cost like that’s probably not a good project for me. Like, these people probably aren’t far enough along in their journey and I’m not trying to sound high and mighty or anything, I’m not. I’m not working for God or anything over here, but I do want to have a more mature business. You know, in my first couple years of running a web agency I was fine with working with businesses who were in their first couple of years, but I feel like I’ve kind of graduated from that work now. So if I get the feeling that a client, you know, is looking at this as purely a cost and price is the number one consideration in either doing this or not, it’s probably not a great fit for me. In fact, in my, in my like project inquiry form, I ask you know, why is now the right time to get started and why did you reach out to me specifically and, all you know, some of these questions are leading to find out how they respond to these and if, if some of them are, you know I’m just trying to find the best price or I just I’m looking for somebody locally. I know these people aren’t willing to invest in the best thing they can get. They’re just looking for an easy way to get this finished. So some of that language is really helpful and kind of like decoding what people are thinking coming to you, because if they’re coming to you just looking for the cheapest option, good luck convincing them that they should spend, you know, 10 times.

Josh: 

Exactly, yeah, yeah, you’re not going to convince that. You can’t change somebody’s mindset, whether proposal, it’s not going to happen. It’s one one reason when I discovered this idea of like a potential client page that had my ranges, because I had my pricing hidden from my website until a lead came through and I’m like, if they’re a really good lead and I know they have a legit business, we’re going right to the proposal and discovery. But if they’re like I don’t know about them, I’m going to send them my potential client page. They see the ranges and then, if they’re like, oh my God, I can’t start a $5,000. No way I’ve got $500. I don’t even need to have that conversation, right? I mean, yeah, a lot of good tips and tricks that come with experience and time. As far as weeding them out, yeah, you don’t want to have to convince somebody. Well, it’s like what you can do with that tip or just with messaging and how you come across.

Kyle: 

Yeah, and I mean you. At some point you have to realize like there’s plenty of fish in the sea. You will. You will find more projects. I know sometimes when you’re first getting started, you know it it doesn’t feel like there’s going to be another project right around the corner. But there are so many people out there looking for what we do still, and I don’t care about the rise of AI and all the tools that are available now. You know I could go mow my lawn, but I don’t. You know, I pay somebody to go mow my lawn because I want it to look good and I don’t want to have to do it, you know, and that’s always going to exist for what we do too, you know. So you have to realize that there’s there’s plenty of people out there. It’s just about finding the right ones. And until you can, until you can have some kind of system for bringing in leads to your agency consistently you know you might have to sort that out Start through a lot of those bad ones to get to the good ones. But when you can narrow that, that pipeline down to make sure you’re getting the right people in into your systems for proposals and things like that, you can start being a. It becomes a lot easier, for sure.

Josh: 

Yeah, when it comes to filtering out the right people. I never had the question what is your budget, but I know a lot of agencies do and I understand the value in doing that. Do you, do you have a question like that at any point? Like, do you flat out ask a budget or you try to explain the value of a project once they’re a qualified lead, like wait, what are your thoughts on that with that question?

Kyle: 

Yeah, so I I’ve. I’ve experimented with these things a lot, so I did used to have like the little I had, just like a fill in the field. You just name your own price. What are you looking to spend? I also went with the drop down method where you know we’d have some different ranges in a drop down field, which was better at like signaling. I wasn’t going to do something for $500 because there was no $500 option in the drop down and I imagined some people just left when they saw that drop down and what I realized is people are really bad at self evaluating these things.

Josh: 

Exactly.

Kyle: 

Or they just they’re not going to tell you their budgets 10,000. If they’re hoping to spend 5,000, you know what I mean. It doesn’t mean they don’t have $10,000 to spend on it. But I feel like we just put, we put ourselves at opposite ends of the table with the client when we, when we do things like that. That’s how I felt. So I don’t know if you’re familiar with Michael Killen, but he does a lot of sales training and he, he and this one was talking about kind of a visual that’s always stuck in my head of being on the same side of the table as the client, not across the table from them. So I use that analogy a lot in my thinking about sales and prospecting and stuff. It’s like how do I sit next to the client and work on them with this instead of sitting across from them, kind of in that tug of war positioning? Yeah, I feel like when we just asked them what’s your budget? And you know, I feel like it’s that sitting across the tables type of thing. So putting the range on my website has definitely helped a lot of people. So I put a little tab you know a button at the time in my navigation that says pricing, so everybody’s going to click on that. If I’m sure I can go look at the analytics, that gets clicked more than anything.

Josh: 

Guaranteed. That’s your number one page. I’ll put one on you, yeah.

Kyle: 

A lot of, a lot of a lot of web agencies are going to my website, so that that affects you too. But I I creatively put that pricing information. It’s not its own page, it’s actually my about page and it’s about three quarters of the way down, so that link in my navigation actually links you to my about page and then smooth scrolls down to that section. So what I’m hoping that does, and what my vision for that was, is they would click pricing, because that’s the thing people want to know how much is this going to cost. But they would see they’re going to a page with a bunch of other information and that tells them you know how I work, what my process is, what’s important to me, all these kinds of different things that I think’s really, really important for them to know before they decide if I’m the right person to hire or not, because in a lot of cases, like for 99% of websites, I’m not the right person to hire and none of us are, you know, for 100% of websites. So I feel like that’s been helpful in trying to get people to that page and self qualify a little bit before we ever have to talk.

Josh: 

Love that approach, man. Love that analogy, too, of sitting on the same side of the table. That way, you can wrap your arm around them and say you need this website. Right, you need, as you can, you know, rub their shoulder like this is yours, this could be yours no, I’m just kidding, we don’t want to get creepy. That really does make a whole lot of sense. Instead of feeling like you’re talking to them and selling to them, it’s like you’re doing it together. That’s sense of togetherness, man. Again whole other topic but I’ve learned the power of saying we and just making it feel like a cohesive experience and partnership in a project, because it is If you talk at your client in the proposal process that’s going to set the tone for the entire web design experience, which you don’t want. You want to be in it together and have fun working together. I mean, you’re a life-balanced guy. I am too. We want to have fun while we’re working and we want to do projects that we like. We want our clients to have a great time too. We want them to be like that was awesome.

Kyle: 

I don’t want to get this over.

Josh: 

I’m bummed, I don’t get to work with Kyle anymore. You want clients to say that.

Kyle: 

Yeah, see, I’m not thinking about the project we’re doing right now. I’m thinking about the long-term relationship with this client. How am I going to turn this project into some recurring revenue, usually through a care plan or through some marketing services? That’s going to add up to way more than this project cost over time. It’s going to be steady income that I can predict every month, which makes my stress level much lower. I’m trying to think about that, and sitting across from the customer playing tug-of-war in the very first interaction with them is not a good way to set up a long-term relationship with somebody. To me, it’s about how can we get into that? I’m not sure I use the partner type words. I don’t know that. I say a partner with them, but we’re working on the same thing together. We’re definitely in the trenches together, working towards the same goal.

Josh: 

Yeah, yeah, I’m going to be a good partner, buddy. That’s what should be an every proposal, for sure. Okay, I know I’m going to try to keep our conversation to an hour for you, kyle. I know you got to pick up some kids. I think I have to ask you about the recurring income and additional services. Do you say right up front, do you prime them and let them know? By the way, along with this proposal for this project, we have our maintenance and care plan, ongoing services. When and how do you talk about those recurring services?

Kyle: 

Absolutely as quickly as I can On the first meeting for sure we’re talking about a lot of times. I will just ask them what are your plans for managing this website once it’s published? That will give me a sense of where they’re at with that. Like I said, I’m working with a lot more like software companies and especially people in the WordPress space. A lot of them are like, well, I’ll handle it myself, which is totally fine. I can get a good sense from the clients right then. If they have no idea what’s involved in that, then I can step in and educate them, because I think it’s really important to do that as soon as possible. I’m not trying to just plug, but we created a project called the Website Owner’s Manual where it gives people a lot of the information about what goes into managing a WordPress website specifically and all the roles and responsibilities to that. Part of that strategy is to let them know as soon as possible, because the worst mistake I made with that is not saying anything until the day the site launched and said, oh, by the way, now, if we don’t babysit this website every single day, all this money and time we just spent just goes up in flames. I think clients felt like, okay, now this guy’s holding me for a ransom now. I don’t want that situation at all For me. How do we talk about this as early in the process as possible? If they don’t have a budget for care and maintenance and they don’t seem qualified to do this on their own, then probably not a good project for me to help them in, probably not the best fit for them to be in WordPress, and maybe I steer them somewhere else.

Josh: 

Yeah, Every WordPress web designer has had that, where you’re like, oh shoot, I need to manage this site and make sure the plugins are updated and security is up to date and optimized. Also, this is recurring income and it’s a benefit for all parties involved. Yeah, so hopefully for anyone who hears this early in the journey, very, very important thing to have that and, like you said, you don’t want to spring in on them. I remember one of my clients who was a realtor. Actually, she became a client because of this situation. She had a WordPress website designed by a guy and it got hacked like three months after it was live and she was like I didn’t even. And he was like, well, you didn’t update plugins. And she’s like I didn’t even know I was supposed to do that. So there was like no empowerment or education on his side to let her know that we got a WordPress site should be updated. And if you don’t want to do it, we’ll do it for you. We’ll keep you know. We’ll be in your corner month to month. So, yeah, I can’t recommend that enough. Just be upfront about it. And I found that even if people are opposed to a care plan initially, they have a really good experience with you, They’ll be much more likely to be like okay, yeah, totally you do it. Or they’ll do it for one month and be like, yeah, I can’t keep up with updates, We’ll do your plan.

Kyle: 

Yeah, I had all those situations happen. I try to not force it on clients. I’m not going to, you know, force them into a contract to do it. Like you said, I can prove myself over the course of our project that you’ll. You know, we’re going to either work together well or not, and if we don’t work together well, I probably don’t want to manage your website either. So that was out of the both of us, you know. But yeah, I just you know there’s almost nearly 8,000 agency owners and freelancers inside of our community and in talking with all of them, I hadn’t found one web agency yet. That is just thriving. That recurring revenue isn’t a big part of that. Like this is so freaking hard If you don’t have some kind of predictability in your business. It is just way too tough.

Josh: 

Well said, well said. The only last tip I’ll give on that is I. I have a maintenance plan course and I teach in there. If they do just not sign up and you’re worried about your psychic and hack, just send a little liability release that says no problem, you can take your site. These are the things that I recommend doing, and if you don’t do these, it’s likely you know it’s not a scare attack but just a heads up. You are responsible for this. We can always take this on, even when you’re ready, and then you’re good to go. You’re in the clear confidence, all good. So yeah, kyle, let’s wrap this up, man. So the admin bar community, the Facebook group, we’ll link that man. I mean, what’s interesting about your group is I’ve been in the Divi community for a long time. I founded a Divi, my Divi web designers Facebook group, which is Tim Stryfer of Divi. Life took that over, but that group’s, like, I think, 25,000 strong. But you have, I think it’s we’re. I think it’s probably fair in saying that you may be the most engaged WordPress community. So, yeah, well done on that man. We’ll link that in the show notes. Is there any any place else that people should go to to connect with you or go over the next steps to see what you’re up to.

Kyle: 

Is it too early to start sharing our threads handle? I don’t know, I don’t know how all this works.

Josh: 

I are you on the? I just, I’ve actually been enjoying threads, I just wanted to date your podcast episode right away.

Kyle: 

It’s during threads mania.

Josh: 

Well, let me see when this is going live. Let me check the schedule Quick, I’ve got you on the schedule for July 21st July 31st.

Kyle: 

Yeah, so threads will be old news by then. They’ll be onto something else before. Yeah, I have hope for threads.

Josh: 

I really do, I think, because it’s in the hands of Instagram and Facebook, with meta I. I don’t think it’s going to die off like clubhouse or some of the other ones. I feel like it’s the yeah, it’s. I mean, it’s Insta Twitter. It’s like the nice version of of Twitter, just a little more. Yeah, anyway, I’m a fan of it.

Kyle: 

Yeah, the problem is now we’re just using threads and Twitter. We didn’t quit one, we just added another one. That’s the problem. That’s too much.

Josh: 

Well, I never even got on Twitter. I was just about to, I was literally about to finally get on Twitter and then threads came out and like yeah, that works. Like I just yeah, I’m at my bandwidth anyway with keeping up with everything. So we’ll make that for sure, man, your threads, the admin bar, your uh, your ogle webcom for for people to check all this out. A lot of what you talked about is your website such a great example and everybody listening to watch. And definitely do yourself a favor, go to the admin barcom. Some awesome I mean loads of free content and your products are all very reasonable. They’ll be priced for anyone at you know getting going, so we’ll have all those links. Um, I’ll throw it over to you. Kyle. Any final thoughts on this when it comes to estimates of you were to help somebody out.

Kyle: 

Oh man, uh, such a can of worms. Hopefully, what we talked about today is helpful. Uh, obviously, like I said I think I said it a million times in here you have to really figure out what works best for you. Uh, we’re two guys talking about pricing and coming up with our ideas and sharing our experiences, but that’s not going to work for everybody, and the other 500 talking heads on YouTube are going to do the same thing, and that doesn’t mean it’s right for you either. So, you know, go out and pull these uh you know nuggets of wisdom and figure out what works for you, and you’re going to have to kind of create your own creation. That makes sense, because it’s really tough to just take somebody else’s system and plop it into your own life and have it work. So, go out there and be inspired, but, you know, do something for yourself.

Josh: 

Wise words from Kyle VD. Is it you say? Is it Van Dussen? That’s right.

Kyle: 

We try to stay away from VD.

Josh: 

That’s, that didn’t work for Kyle at a rough time in high school. All right, man, thanks for coming on. Dude, this will not be the first, the first and only time. I’m already looking forward to having you back, absolutely. Thank you for having me. Whoo, there, it is All right. There’s a little Rick flair. We’ll have to that conversation. Thanks again to Kyle for coming on to the show and really pulling back the curtain on what’s working well for his business, how he is doing estimates and proposals, and man, oh man, did I love his his concept of having an average price on your pricing page. That’s something I might adjust my website with and encourage you to do as well. Again, kyle, if you have not yet joined the admin bar community on Facebook, highly recommend it. Even if you’re not on Facebook, it’s probably worth just jumping into Facebook just for the group. It really is for WordPressers. It’s one of the best groups out there. It is actually literally voted number one WordPress community, so highly recommend that. You can also find more about Kyle’s products and everything that he’s got for you additionally at the admin barcom. And I think that’s it. I really hope you took a lot from this one and you’re able to make pricing and proposals easier, as I mentioned throughout, and then, as I’ll mention here now, a lot of my strategies. Well, all of my strategies are included in my web design business course which, at the time of recording this, is Brand Spankin’ New Live Version 2.0 is live literally the week before this episode comes out. So if you have yet to go through my business course and you are ready to finally take your business to the next level and have all the systems and processes you need to have the foundation for a six-figure business, my business course is welcome to you. You can check that out at joshallco and you have any questions, contact me through the website and I’ll personally get back with you without further ado or I already said, further ado or at the end of the episode. So if you’re still with me, it’s getting messy. I’m going to end here again. Visit Kyle, the admin barcom, and if you have not yet joined the admin bar community on Facebook, head on over. There’ll be a link at the show notes for this one at joshallco. All the links are there for you and I hope to see you there. Otherwise, have an awesome, awesome week or day whenever you’re listening to this and I hope to see you in the business course as well. All right, thanks.

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