If you’re low on web design clients and are in a dry spell…LISTEN UP!!

The good news: you’re likely right on the cusp of a wave of new clients.

If your skills are well rounded as a web designer and you have good offers in place, I can confidently say things will turn around.

If you want to press the issue and take a more proactive approach to getting more web design clients fast, this podcast episode is for you.

My student and Web Designer Pro member Katie Lake of studiolagodesign.com started 2023 off scarce when it came to clients and having a pipeline of leads. But come late Spring, she was SWAMPED and could barely handle the amount of work that was coming her way.

What happened in those few months?
What did she do to get a swarm of new clients?

That’s exactly what we uncover in this conversation.

Katie shares how:

  • She nearly threw in the towel on web design but the moment she decided to stick with it
  • What she did to literally “change her state” and get clients fast
  • How her consistent online marketing efforts are now paying off
  • The strategies she’s used both in person and online to keep clients coming
  • How she’s already finding and honing in on her superpower of marketing her business

And oh so much more.

If you love underdog stories as much as I do, you will not want to miss this conversation. Jammed packed with goodness and client acquisition strategies it is!

Sorry for the Yoda lingo.

Let’s go!

In this episode:

00:02 – From Scarcity to Success
04:49 – Transitioning From Scarce to Swamped
14:23 – Marketing Strategy and Sales Power
24:01 – Business Cards
30:20 – Content Creation Strategies for Business Success
38:12 – Social Media and Confidence in Marketing
48:29 – Pricing and Packages for Business Services
1:02:08 – Networking’s Impact on Taking Action

Web Designer Pro


Connect with Katie:

Episode #280 Full Transcription

Katie: 

I’m the kind of person who and I am a massive perfectionist and that works. It’s detrimental to me most of the time to be a perfectionist, I can tell you. But it’s remembering, you know. You know I like structure and I like it. Everything’s got to be just so. But actually that doesn’t necessarily work with a marketing strategy, because the best marketing is all about testing, as I’ve discovered, and actually just taking action. And while it’s called messy, action is better than no action.

Josh: 

Welcome to the Web Design Business podcast with your host, Josh.

Katie: 

Hall, helping you build a web design business that gives you freedom and a lifestyle you love.

Josh: 

Hey friends, welcome into the show. Great to have you here and I’m so excited about this episode because you’re going to get to hear a story of a web designer who, just this year, in 2023, has gone from scarce to swamped with web design projects in just a span of a few months. My guest in this episode is Katie Lake, who is a web design student of mine. She’s also a member of my community web designer pro and I was actually I’m looking at our DM conversation. So, if you don’t know and web designer pro everyone has there’s a coaching aspect to it as well. So everyone in pro gets the option to DM me directly. We talk shop and I give coaching advice, and I’m looking right now, january 25th of this year, 2023. Katie let me know that things were a little dry, to put it mildly, and she was looking for some new strategies. She had really made some great strides in her business, but she was just low on projects and was getting a little nervous, understandably. So that was January 25th. March 9th, she comes back with an update after I gave her some advice on what we might be able to do with with networking and trying a few things to reaching back to current clients. March 9th, she comes back with an update saying that she is super busy and now she’s trying to figure out what to do with all this work. That is how fast things can happen in web design. My friends and I’m so excited to bring Katie on here, who is really transparent in this conversation about everything she did to go from scarce to swamped, with her clients and with web design projects. Katie really is an incredible marketer, has an awesome social media presence and she’s just a top notch designer. You can find out more about her business at studio logo design dot com and, of course, we’ll have this link to the show notes. I would also highly recommend that you follow her on Instagram. She’s a really good example of how to stay consistent on social media and provide value. That’s one of the many strategies that has worked for her, but she’s also very present in person now, to which you’ll hear in this interview how being present in person and present virtually has just done wonders for her business. So I could not be more excited for Katie and I’m so excited for her to be able to share exactly what she’s done to go from scarce to swamp. So, without further ado, here is Katie and before we dive in, like we talked about with web designer pro, my coaching community, just so you know, you do get a direct line to me for coaching and I would love to coach you, just like I coach Katie. So, to join web designer pro, go to joshallco slash pro and try it out. We have a monthly option now and I would love to give you some initial advice to help you level up your business or help you wherever you are in your web design journey. Speaking of helping you in your journey, katie’s going to do that by sharing what she’s done to be super busy after a dry period and a dry spell. So, without further ado, here’s Katie Lake. Let’s have some fun. Katie, welcome officially on to the podcast. I’m so excited to chat with you for a little while to hear what’s working for you. So welcome in. Why don’t you just? Let’s start with like, what do you call yourself as a web designer now? Do you call yourself a web designer, a strategist, a consultant, a branding pro? Like, what do you call yourself?

Katie: 

What do I call myself so at the moment? I call myself a branding and web designer, because I offer both. I do offer both separately, I offer both together. I do recommend that people go for them together as a kind of more holistic approach. So that’s what I call myself at the moment, but I definitely want to move more into the whole strategist side of things. So it’s evolving at the moment.

Josh: 

I’d say it’s evolved, always evolving, right? I mean speaking of evolving what a segue, because I have seen your business evolve like crazy in the past year, 12 months in particular. We were just chatting about this before it live, but I had to stop you because I was like I don’t want to talk about any of this before we record. It’s too good. Can you let us know where things were for you last summer around this time, because your business has is at a whole different place now. I’ve you know I’m sure we’ll get into the weeds of what you’ve done and and the things that you’ve implemented in your business to really go from like scarce to swamped and a lot of cases. But where were things a year ago for you?

Katie: 

Yeah, I love that term scarce, just want to cause that’s exactly the feeling. So this year I was. I had a couple of projects going on, nothing particularly big or nothing in the pipeline. So it was very much like, oh great, this has come up, I’ll do this, thank God something’s happened. And it was very much like just sort of sort of yeah, just kind of putting the feelers out there and going what am I doing? But also just that fear of not knowing where work is going to come from or if work is going to come in. And I guess so yeah, we’re talking this time last year, so summer last year, I was still kind of transitioning out of my other business. So I previously ran a wedding cake business and so last year was a bit of a weird transition year. I guess I was doing a bit of this and a bit of that and it felt very all over the place. So, yeah, work was very scarce, work was not coming in and I felt like I really didn’t know what I was doing or where I was going with this. I was just not aware I was going with it. Basically, yeah.

Josh: 

And so you had. When did you officially go full time? I’m trying to remember the timeline from last year, because you joined my community I think right after you went full time, right? Or was it shortly before you went full time?

Katie: 

So I think I’ve been in the community a couple of years now, maybe you’re going to have something like that, but I am. I it’s been a bit of a staggered approach to going full time as well as a bit of a kind of a transition, like I said. So I was running my previous business, which struggled through covid, obviously because it was a wedding business, and then, during covid, this business was basically born because I was there in lockdown wondering what was going to happen, with, you know, business going forward and our wedding is going to be allowed to happen anytime soon, and so this business has always been something that’s been a dream of mine. But I guess it was just the right time. during covid I was like I’ve got nothing to lose, so let’s go through it and see what happens, and so so I guess going full time has only really happened this year in the last few months, because what’s happened is there’s been that transition between I literally don’t have time to market my cake business anymore and everything has gone 100% into the design business. So that’s got to happen with that shift. But I think that’s also come from a mindset point of view as well. So I’ve kind of gone. You know what I need to give this my 100% now. And and what’s happened with that is the swamped with work following on from that.

Josh: 

So that’s interesting and this is the case for a lot of people who I think are teetering in both worlds. Where your web design business is a side hustle, the reality is it’s only going to grow as a side hustle, like you can only do so much unless you’re hiring things out and scaling as a side hustle. You really literally only have you know what maybe 10, 15, at max 20 hours a week to get stuff done in your business. So this is the case very commonly, that when you go full time, suddenly 40 plus hours a week if you want to open up to you, and that’s when things can really turn on a dime. So what did you do with all that extra time, katie, when you because I, like you, said you, you were you have foot in the cake, the wedding cake industry You’re still doing that. You’re still doing what was on the side, and I don’t think your approach is wrong in any way. I think it’s probably sound until you have some clients built up on the side and you have a strong. The analogy I like to use is like Tarzan swinging from vine to vine you want to make sure that next vine is strong. That way you don’t go plummeting to the ground. So you had some clients, you had some probably confidence as a web designer growing over the past year, year and a half. What did you do differently, though, when you got your time back? Like what? Did you market more? Did you network? What were the things that you did with that extra time?

Katie: 

So I really think that it started beginning of this year and it was actually something that you said, josh, as well, because I’m listening to your podcast, like for the last two, three years, however long it is and just something that you kept saying and it took a little while to kind of sink in, but it’s, it was true and it was about actually getting out from behind my desk and behind my computer and going out and meeting people in real life, because not only did that kind of well, I suppose, on a human level, help me just connect with some other humans, which is so important. It’s obviously. You know, I know that sounds, it’s such a simple thing, but I think it’s so easy to just say, oh, I’m working away behind my desk and this is where I am and I’m busy, but actually getting out there and connecting to people in real life is so powerful. So I think since the beginning of this year I’ve really gone out and spent a lot of time networking, trying to find the right types of people. So I kind of, with a bit of the time that I got back from not spending making cakes, I was then like, right, we need to launch into this and and I suppose, looking at in person networking, reaching out to people online as well. The other big thing that’s happened this year is I’ve decided it’s super important to actually start marketing my business, which I know sounds again really obvious. But I think, looking back and I’ve been running a business for quite a while but I don’t actually feel like I’ve known what marketing is, what, what marketing involves and what having a marketing plan can actually do for your business. So those are two things that I really switched my brain on about this year and just got completely involved with, and I’ve met some amazing people, made some amazing connections and subsequently got work through it. So it sounds really simple, but it’s been a slog. It’s been. You know there’s been a lot of like this isn’t working and well, if I go to this networking event, what if nothing comes of it? And you know, putting out these social posts and blog posts and nothing’s happening, and it does. It takes time, it just takes time and I think the interesting thing about the marketing side of things as well is, you know, having listening to listen to a few sort of marketing gurus and people out there who who specialise in marketing, is that they say you’ve got to keep banging the same drum over and over and over and over again, and for you as a business owner that can feel really boring, which is why so many people give up. And actually, if you keep repeating it, eventually those people that are on your radar will listen and they will engage and they will get on a call with you because they are interested. But it’s just about keep repeating that same thing, and so that’s what I’m doing.

Josh: 

Yeah, that’s such a great point, katie, because it does feel like I’ve experienced this and I have to still. I still challenge or struggle with this, where you just do like one launch or one campaign and then it’s done and that’s, that’s the marketing. But you do have to keep going. You have and it does. It probably feels annoying to you, but on the other end, people are not annoyed. Like, I think the old rule says that people are going to have to see an ad seven times before they would click on it. But even if it’s not an ad, even if it’s just showing up consistently on socials, it is so important to stay present and top of mind for when your clients are ready for you. That’s the other big thing too. Like, maybe one of your best clients who signed on with you recently, katie, maybe they did see a post that you did a year ago, but they just weren’t ready to move forward. But after seeing you show up and stay consistent, then they’re ready. That’s often how that kind of thing works out. So, the marketing plan for web designers. First of all, thank you, because I think you just gave me a guide or a cheat sheet that I’m going to create, because I think that’s a sore spot for a lot of web designers right now. What did you? So I want to get to what your marketing plan is now. But what did it look like when you were side hustling? Were you just working with people you knew from the wedding industry? Like, what was your marketing plan, you know version one when you were side hustling?

Katie: 

Well, first things first. I’m not ever I’m not going to say right now that my marketing plan or strategy or whatever it’s called is perfect. It’s not. It’s also testing and trying things out and seeing what works and maybe what doesn’t work so well. But I would say that, looking back on what I was doing even earlier this year, I felt a lot sort of like more, oh, just put some content together and put it out there because it’s better than doing nothing. And you know, it’s actually yes, to an extent that’s true, but it’s about having different types of content that appeal in different ways to different people who are at different stages along the journey with you. So you know, for example, if some people are ready to actually ready to invest, but you don’t know that maybe they’re kind of hiding and they, you know, just observing everything that you’re saying, but perhaps they’re genuinely ready to work with you. You’ve actually got to ask them to take action rather than just keep feeding them tips, tricks, blog posts, knowledge about, you know, building websites or branding design. So my, I suppose, looking back on what my marketing looked like even earlier this year so even like six months ago, I would say I was literally just putting out loads and loads of content that revolved around my blog posts because I blog every single week and I was kind of cutting them up and putting them into different posts to go across social media, but there was no action taking posts, there was nothing involving actual sales and the sales word again. Josh, this is something else that I’ve got from you and all these little nuggets that I always get from your blog posts and they sorry from your podcast that stay in my mind, that I was like, oh, I was out for a walk in that place and I remember Josh said this. And then the other thing is that you’ve got to be doing sales and that’s something that’s always been like oh, that’s not sales. I’m not a salesy person. That’s not me. I’ll just be myself and people will come to me. But actually sales doesn’t have to be all salesy. That makes sense.

Josh: 

Yeah, absolutely.

Katie: 

Reaching out to people and asking them to take action. It’s literally that and then talking about how you’re going to serve them, and so I’ve learned that actually selling to people is talking about how you can help them and serve them. So I think yeah, I think those are the things that have changed a lot over that period of time. I’ve learned quite a lot about marketing and really kind of then implemented it into my strategy.

Josh: 

I love that approach. Katie, the cause yeah, you can offer free value every day if you wanted to. But if somebody doesn’t know how to work with you or that there is a call to action that they should do, they’re not going to do it. But it’s kind of your fault as a marketer if you’re not saying like, hey, sign up here to get this result. Have you done case studies? Or do you show off like client results or anything like that? I asked that because I found that to be the lowest barrier to entry with sales, because you can just say like, hey, and I’ve done this with you, katie you you gave me a testimonial and I recently put it out and I think it was about going from like scarce to swamp and I said you know, katie was here last year. She’s here. These are a few things that she did that you emailed me and if you want a similar result, join pro, and I dare say I think a couple of members came from that. So that’s, I found that to be the easiest way to sell, because you don’t need to say like, hey, hire me or buy my thing. You just say, hey, here’s what one of my customers, here’s the result they’re getting. If you want something similar, you can sign up here. Do you do anything like that?

Katie: 

Yeah, I do try and push kind of, you know, emphasize the fact that, even if they don’t feel like big results going from a business owner having no website to having a website that’s, that’s a result, even if it’s something that was quite small to you like, like that as a web designer, that can yield huge results for your, your clients, because they are, you know, they’ve now got an online platform that they can then promote and drive traffic to from social media. So, yeah, I always try and emphasize that. You know, the people I’ve worked with before are their business owners, just like yourselves, you know, and they saw these results because they work with me and until this transformation and it’s it’s also I like the fact that what I do gives businesses a lot more confidence behind what they do. So you know, a lot of businesses, if they’ve been going for a while, they can be completely confused with what they’re doing, they’re offering, but also with their branding, with their ideal clients, like who they are, and things can get muddled if you kind of been in business for a little while, and so I really like helping business owners kind of get really clear on what those things are. So that’s where the strategy stuff comes in. So I’ll never launch in and just say, right, let’s design you a website. We’ll do all of the the foundation work before that and make sure that the messaging is going to be on point before we even go anywhere near a website. So, yeah, the transformation and the testimonial side of things is hugely powerful. Even as I say, like, even as a web designer, if you think something is a really you think, oh well, I don’t really think you know I changed this business owners business at all. Of course you have, because you’ve given them, you know, something. Think about what the pain point was before and now the fact that you’ve sold this problem, and I think those are two really important things to highlight when you’re you’re kind of giving testimonials.

Josh: 

Yeah, I love that. I mean, you really just articulated the power of having a case study or a testimonial or any sort of result, because, yeah, it really does just make sales easy because you don’t need to sell at all. You just said, like here, the if you’re getting any sort of result, even if it is no website to a new website, that is a result that can keep on selling for you moving forward. And I also have to say I think you’re totally right about starting with strategy. And if everyone, anyone hasn’t checked out your website, is it studio Lego design or logo?

Katie: 

Logo, but however you want to say it, yeah, okay.

Josh: 

Studio logo design, designcom. You have a how it works section, and this is beautifully articulated with three steps. Start with strategy, design with purpose, build to attract and convert, which is great. Like that just really shows clients that there is a lot more like. You do not come across like a commodity, because you’re not just saying like I’ll just build you a nice little website. It’s like there is strict, there’s strategic planning behind it, there is intentional design and it you more most importantly, you have a tract and convert in there too. So all I imagine everything you’ve done for the past year and a half has culminated to being in the position you are now where you sounds like you have a pipeline. You have a little more. Probably. I’m sure there’s still big months and lower months, but it doesn’t seem like you’re at the place where you were last year, where suddenly there’s no projects. You told me a little while ago that you were completely swamped, and then now. Now the question is like okay, that’s an amazing challenge, but it is a challenge. Now, what do we do with being swamped? Oh, one thing I did want to ask, though, katie, is I didn’t realize you blogged every week. That’s amazing that you’ve kept consistent with that? Where did networking and in person things come into play for you? Because I know when we were messaging in pro, you said that that was a huge boost for you. But it has the blogging like helped with that? Like, do you network and meet people and then when they see your website and see that you blog once a week, do you? I guess the short question is do you think the efforts and blogging and content creation have helped on the in person side of things?

Katie: 

I’m not sure if they have kind of made that connection. I think it’s been quite interesting with the in-person stuff because I’ve actually made quite a few connections over on LinkedIn, which is an area that I haven’t. I mean, I’ve known that I think you know I should be getting on to LinkedIn and I feel like I should be better on LinkedIn, and so I’ve made a lot of in-person connections that have carried on on LinkedIn, which then I always post content to, which goes straight through to my blog every week, my website. But I’d say it’s yes and no what I kind of wanted to do an experiment with, actually with the in-person, and call me old fashioned, but I created some business cards. I made sure that they were super high quality, they had embossed effect on the front, they were kind of tactile. And you know, of course, I wrote a blog post about this. You know, talking about business cards in 2023 and should they be a thing or should they not. And it was quite interesting to see people’s reaction, because when you give them a business card that’s super high quality, decent card stock with something tactile to feel on it, people go. You know, it’s kind of it’s. Yeah.

Josh: 

I found that too. I used to get. I used to use got print, which is still an awesome site. I don’t know what you use, but I use got printcom and I got these like triple trifecta cards that had the black around the side and they I would give my card to somebody and they were going to be like, damn, that’s legit and just a simple little I mean it was those were still dirt cheap. They really do make a great impression. I’m so glad to hear that’s still working today. Yeah.

Katie: 

I mean, I’d say honestly, you know there’s still I do still think there’s a place for physical business cards. Everyone’s also going around all these events doing the. You know you can do the scanning QR code thing on LinkedIn to kind of just immediately find someone’s profile. So most people were doing that. But quite a few people were exchanging business cards as well and I think that led to quite a few people to kind of, you know, love the business card and immediately go oh, I want to check out with your website right now. So a few people did that. So I do think it’s powerful, I do think it’s a good thing to have. And yeah, I also did something with digital business cards with QR codes which you can scan and they go straight through to my website. So it was a great way again networking events. If I didn’t give out the physical cards, I was doing the whole digital business card thing. And again, it was an experiment and it was quite an interesting one.

Josh: 

That’s great. I mean, that’s the best. Marketing is experimenting and see what works and then, if it works, double down on it or just keep doing it. I’m actually I’ve got this blog post pulled up, katie, that you wrote about why have a business card in 2023. So I’ll make sure we have this linked in the show notes, because you do have some examples, like you have the pictures of the cards. So well done on that. I’m so impressed that you’ve stuck with blogging. I had no idea. I mean, I knew you had a blog, but I did not realize that you had done it so thoroughly over the past. Probably what 12, 18 months. It looks like something like that.

Katie: 

Yeah, every week for the last three year and a half. I’d say Wow. And the way I stick to that is I just say blogging every week is an absolute non-negotiable. So because I this actually came from when I previously ran a business and I found it much, much easier to be creating content for social media if I had a blog post for the week. So I just came up with this really kind of quite simple blogging strategy, which is to think of, let’s say, for example, things that people might tap into Google to ask about a service like mine. So branding design, website design, all of the possible questions that could come up, things like I don’t know the reasons why people might not want to go for a branding designer, a website designer all the reasons you know like. Oh, I’m not ready to invest, or I haven’t got the money right now, or things like that. I haven’t got time. And then you kind of contest it with well, do you really have the time to DIY your own website and all of these things? So this is just me, you know, just sort of thinking out loud right now, but I’m probably just not really on ideas.

Josh: 

You’ll come up with a whole slew of blog posts from this. I guarantee it. This is great.

Katie: 

Yeah, I just think it’s a genuinely for proof strategy for coming up with endless blog posts for anybody and content, because from that every single week I blog and then from that come all of my social posts. So I kind of take the secrets of my blog posts, break them down into captions which give me more ideas for creating reels stories on Instagram and then posting onto LinkedIn as well. So, yeah, I kind of stick to the blogging because it helps me with everything else.

Josh: 

Okay, that’s great, that really is. Sounds like that’s the foundation. I love that approach too. When you take a piece of long form content even I mean your blogs aren’t like super long but they are in depth. To where I’m looking at, I mean the business card one, you’ve got like half a dozen points. So that could potentially be six pieces of social media content that you could schedule out for or have them staggered for the next like six weeks. You could have one piece from just one blog post. You could have six different little pieces. So I absolutely love that approach. But that really is, I think, the end to the like what should I post this week? It’s like, well, if you do have a blog, or for me, a lot of times I’ll use my course, my written course pages in my posts, because those are essentially. I essentially do a blog post for every lesson that I have in my courses. So I’m like, well, I’ve got hundreds now that I could just go in and pull from if I wanted to, but it’s the same way as a blog. So I love that approach. For anyone repurposing social media content, I think that’s a very, very sound way to go without being in the hamster wheel of trying to figure out what to come up with. You’ve mentioned something there about being non-negotiable. For me, it was my networking group. Every week, no matter what was going on, I was not going to miss my group. What other non-negotiables do you have? Have you applied that to any in-person networking or any other social media posting, or is blog the one for you? That’s like that’s. You know, everything else might vary, but it’s the blog. Do you have any other non-negotiables?

Katie: 

Non-negotiables for me are my blog every week and five social media posts on Instagram. That is my like bare minimum. If I do nothing else. Those things have to happen so, but what I found is that’s not usually enough. So I do you know, I have kind of had weeks when I’ve been so busy that I literally been like, oh, I need to post on social media, but normally I would plan everything a week ahead. So my non-negotiable day for content creation writing a blog post, posting it on my website and then creating and scheduling my social media has always been a Monday. I don’t know why a Monday Monday just seems to work. And Monday is my not working on client work day. I don’t do client calls on Mondays, it’s kind of like and, to be totally honest with you, I’m always a little bit sleepy on Mondays.

Josh: 

So we just talked before we hit record about how gray and rainy it is in the UK this summer, so I get that.

Katie: 

Well, yeah, that doesn’t help, but yeah, so that it just works for me as being like a day where it’s like this is what I do and if, for whatever reason I don’t know, it might be like a holiday, a bank holiday or whatever, I’ll move it to the Tuesday. We would just always make it happen.

Josh: 

I actually signed on that. Yeah, on that, katie. I think it’s actually a really wise approach. I mean, I have that approach now with my business. I don’t do any calls on Mondays, and I think as a web designer I learned that most clients were busy with their own stuff on Mondays, like they were kind of doing the same thing. They were worried about their business or client fulfillment or whatever. So I would often have calls on like Wednesdays or Thursdays with clients when they had a little more time after getting some stuff done to work on their website. So I think for web designers that’s actually a strong strategy because you can kind of block out Mondays primarily to do like work on your business, create your social content, do whatever work on your business, whatever that looks like. And I would still probably have like a reactionary block later in the day in case you needed to do anything. But I love that approach because that way you can at least get the stuff done that you need to get done to keep your business chugging. And then, because we all know when it comes to client stuff, that’s mostly reactionary work, so you don’t want to like start the week off by just reacting to the whack-a-mole email approach. I think that’s really sound. I’m glad to hear that’s worked for you.

Katie: 

Yeah, yeah, it’s worked really really well. And you know, I’ll be honest, not every Monday I feel like sitting down and writing a blog post. But it’s also great that there are now so many different ways to approach content. So, again, some Mondays I feel really sleepy and the last thing I can think of is what to write a blog post on. But I have different tactics and different ways of making sure that I don’t run out of content. So I might literally just sift through all of the blogs that I’ve written before and go ah well, this is, you know, quite a chunky, decent blog post. Actually, this could have been broken up into two blog posts, so I’ll write an extension of that and, you know, or an update of this one circa this month of this year, or, if I’m feeling really, really sleepy although this is happening more and more in an ordinary life get myself on chat, GPT and go.

Josh: 

I was just going to say that’s what fires me up with ideas. Yeah, just do a couple of prompts and I’m like, oh my gosh, I didn’t even think about that. That would be cool, yeah.

Katie: 

And chat GPT has really helped me as well, because you can literally ask it, and what I found with chat GPT is that the quality of whatever you put in determines the quality of whatever you get out. It’s the same with anything, I guess, but you can literally ask it to write a blog post on this topic from the point of view of a website designer, in an informal way of 700 words, and it’s quite funny because sometimes it will literally cut off at 700 words mid sentence. But it’s, you know, depending on how I’m feeling on any given day. Sometimes I genuinely happen to sit down and write a blog post or I might be on the tube and think, okay, I’m going to write a blog post on my phone about this. But, other times. The brain is not there and chat. Gpt is the savior.

Josh: 

I think you just hit a really interesting point I didn’t think about that with prompting with any AI tool which is that you could almost put yourself in your ideal client shoes and ask what like? What would they search? You can ask chat GPT for that. So like, for example, if you work with healthcare providers, you could say what would a healthcare provider look for in a web designer, and that’s going to give a different set of results than if you’re working with, like, life coaches and you could say what, what do life coaches need in a website? Or whatever the prompt may be. So it’s a really, really great hidden strategy there to prompt chat, gpt or any AI tool with your ideal customer avatar lingo. So well done that’s. That is very, very cool. I’m going to take that one, repurposed it somehow.

Katie: 

Yeah, yeah, I just think all of it is always about trying to get in the head of your ideal client, and even I’ve done something where I’ve literally reached out and said you know, business owners, help me, tell me, I run this website focus group a couple of weeks ago, where I basically put a post out on my stories on Instagram and just said I’m running a website focus group. You know, as a reward, I’ll give you a little voucher or whatever. It wasn’t much, but it was just a little incentive. But I said to people you know, hopefully in this session you’ll learn something from me, but ultimately, I really need to learn something from you. So we sat down and I asked them questions about what they struggle with their websites, why they allow their websites to get out of date, what, in what situation, would they invest in a website designer or what would? What’s, what’s stopping them from investing all of these types of questions? And actually you really get, and I recorded the session and the plan is to kind of start creating content from that which is literally from the mouth of my ideal clients. So it does as well.

Josh: 

Hey, you are a marketing web design beast. These are like amazing tactics. I had no idea so much of this was going on behind the scenes, which makes sense with where you’re at right now. I mean, all I would imagine, all of these things combined to being swamped like, or do you feel like there was one thing that was more powerful than the other? Do you feel like it was just all these things that you have done together with blogging, repurposing content, staying consistent, showing up in person where you can networking, doing the you know what you just mentioned, the live call kind of thing, like? Do you think it was just all together that just kind of helped you get to this point? Or was there? Was there a shift? Was there like a couple weeks where things just exploded?

Katie: 

Honestly, I feel like, yeah, there was probably a month or so when everything just absolutely exploded and I was like, I think that’s what I got in touch with you actually, and I went, oh my God, this is amazing. I actually need to get in touch with Josh because I’m spoken to him for ages because I have been swamped, but now I’m absolutely swamped. So I just think it a combination of entering this year and saying, right, something’s got to be different this year. I’m not going to be running this business in the same way that I ran my old business. I need to get out from behind my desk, because mentally, being at home all the time isn’t, it’s not serving me well. I need to be out there and meeting people and growing my network, and that’s much more powerful in person. I just think that kind of improved my confidence because I got out there and I started talking about what I do and you know, in the beginning I was like, oh, I’m a branding and web designer and people go. Oh, that’s nice, and then I was like, yeah, you talk because I’m just nervous, but after a while you kind of get more confident talking about it, and then I think that in turn helps you kind of work out what it is in your head. You actually doing and then apply that to your marketing. And it just grew my confidence a bit around what I’m doing, because people genuinely seemed interested in what I’m doing and wanted to listen to what I had to say. But also it was definitely about understanding more about marketing. So, putting those different types of posts out there on social media the ones where you, you do give away the free value 100% that’s still so important, but it’s also about helping people understand who you are and what your story is and how you are the one to solve their problem as well, and then other things like, like I said earlier, making sure that you have those posts that ask them to take action. I went through a stage of posting on my Instagram stories every single day with something, anything. So on days it was just me going for a walk in the morning or whatever, but other days it was like and I do this every week anyway it was always posting through to make sure that people could see my blog posts were there. Instagram stories has been a really interesting one, because I’ve seen a direct correlation with the rise in website visitors to how often I post on my Instagram stories. It’s a really interesting yeah. So I think being more active on my Instagram stories has really, really, really helped me.

Josh: 

And are you so? Instagram is your biggie. You mentioned LinkedIn. You also are on Facebook and Pinterest. Are you repurposing content for all those platforms or do you just occasionally dip into the other ones? And Instagram is the big one? What’s? How are you balancing all the socials you’re active on?

Katie: 

Yeah, that’s the big question, Because it can be completely overwhelming. And I do still find it completely overwhelming. Instagram is the biggie. I don’t know if it’s definitely right, but it seems to be working okay for me. Now, LinkedIn I’ve kind of been dipping my toe in, although again, the last few weeks I’ve been absolutely crazy busy and I just haven’t had the time to get on LinkedIn. But I had been doing quite a lot of cross posting and it’s been interesting to see how the same type of content can work in one way on Instagram and a totally different way on LinkedIn.

Josh: 

So I’m a big.

Katie: 

I’m a newbie with LinkedIn. I’m not going to say that I know what I’m doing on there, because I definitely don’t, but it’s been quite interesting to start some conversations on there with people and it is very much a platform that’s more about having conversations with people. In terms of Facebook, I literally just cross post everything from Instagram, so I’m active on there, but I don’t do a lot on Facebook. And then Pinterest. I was active on there, but nothing’s been happening recently because I just decided and I think again I think, josh, you probably would have mentioned this at some point it’s probably best to get good at one platform and work out what you’re doing with it and then potentially sidestep into another, because otherwise it is too much, it’s overwhelming, because it’s one thing, getting your posts out there and your content, but then you’ve also got to be engaging with people, and that’s it’s a lot.

Josh: 

That’s a really good point. That is that’s the kicker, honestly is like, well, yeah, you can. You could not easily cross post everything, but it’s very manageable to take one piece of content and then distribute it across all of them. But the trick is the follow up, the DMs, the comments. That’s what is the big problem with managing everything. Yeah, I, you probably haven’t had time to go through the new version of the business course, but in I do have a lesson in there on marketing. But now I’m thinking this needs to be like its own course, because everything we’ve talked about so far could be stripped out to separate lessons in its own course. But one thing I teach in there and the new business course is to have like a major, a minor and elective approach, kind of like college. Like you have one major, that that’s your, your big thing. So with social media, for you it’s like Instagram, but you can have a minor or two where you have a presence that’s reposted but you’re not there as much. That’s LinkedIn, facebook, and then, if you have time, if you have the bandwidth, you can have an elective. But really I mean, I don’t know anyone unless it’s a huge team of people who can manage all of the socials and do it well and do service work. It really is. It’s too much. So I think, for anyone who feels overwhelmed, I think you’re at a perfect example pick one and do it really well and if there’s a couple backups that you want to have a presence on, cool. But I kind of needed to hear this, because part of me is always drawn to being everywhere. I want to try to catch everyone, but I realized, like how the heck can I possibly be on all the socials and do YouTube tutorials and do a podcast and be active in my community and do my coaching? There’s just no, there’s no way.

Katie: 

Yeah, and it, yeah, it’s overwhelming and I think, as a you know one person doing everything yourself, which I still currently am, although I’m literally on the, on the you know, at the point of, okay, we need to do some outsourcing here. But yeah, I do, and I don’t know whether it’s because Instagram is kind of like my comfort zone. I definitely have a love hate relationship with Instagram as well, but that’s another point. But I had a really big following and a really great, genuinely a great kind of organic marketing journey with my previous business on Instagram and I was on there from 2015 onwards with my previous business. So Instagram- is a very, very different game than now. Instagram in itself feels like almost like three, four different platforms, because it’s got so many different formats. It’s got your grid, it’s got your reels, it’s got stories. What am I missing here? Grid, real stories oh, then you just got like another marketing platform within your DMs as well. So, it feels like a lot just that by itself. So I do feel like I’m kind of comfortable with Instagram, but just that by itself feels like a lot LinkedIn. I do genuinely believe that my ideal client is on there, but I’m still yeah, I don’t feel like I have the time to devote to LinkedIn that I need. So, yeah, it’s, yeah, I’m getting there, but at the moment, that’s cool.

Josh: 

I mean honestly, katie, if it’s coaching time, I would say just double down on what’s working for you right now and the fact that you’re swamped. I mean I think after this, it’s probably time for you and I to have a chat and pro about how to start outsourcing and figure out what to get off your your plate, cause I I really see you as the face of the business and, being that your, I mean. Our entire conversation so far has been about marketing, web design, so I can tell your passion about this. We haven’t talked a look about design or code or anything. So I would feel like you know you would probably excel with getting some of those things handed off to really dig down into growing the business even more. But I think you’re doing an amazing job. I would just stick with it and just keep on doing what’s working. One thing I am curious about, on that note of, like your services and your actual fulfillment the design, the development did you, did you raise your prices all over the last year when you got swamped, or have you raised your rates since being more swamped? Like, I guess? Short question is did you change anything about your actual business apart from marketing services? Your pricing? Did you change anything, or was all that the same now as it was last year, when things were scarce?

Katie: 

Um, prices have gone up a bit, but that’s quite interesting how you say that. Actually, because I do genuinely feel like they need to go up quite, quite a lot because of and this is something I’ve realised over the last couple of projects that I’ve done is that I genuinely feel like the amount that I’m delivering to people is worth a lot more in terms of okay, if I think, for example, this is my and this is something else I learned from you, josh is look at my. The annual income that I need to have, or I would like to have, broken down into the number of projects that I can do. Broken down into this is how many hours I have in a day, etc. What’s humanly possible for one person to do those, the amount of time that I’m spending on the projects that I’m doing. This, it’s just it doesn’t add up. Basically, it doesn’t make for a sustainable business because I’m delivering a lot, because I’m not just delivering design of a website, I’m delivering all the branding, but I’m also delivering strategy sessions and I’m delivering help with ongoing SEO. At the end of things so it is, I feel like it’s in my nature to not want to, and I say this in my website copy as well I won’t leave you hanging, which means I always check in with my clients to make sure that they’re doing okay and honestly, whether they’re on my website maintenance packages or not, which is probably not the best use of my time, although it can result in repeat custom and everything but I do think yeah, that’s the approach I would take. yeah, yeah, I do think that for what I’m offering, I probably should be charging more. But the fear, the fear is real about putting the prices up.

Josh: 

All right. Well, I have good news, because we can conquer that fear with a low barrier, low risk way to go about this. If you want to, katie, and that would just be, do you have ranges, do you have different packages or do you just have like a custom quote per project?

Katie: 

Yeah, I mean, it’s a funny one because I do stipulate on the website where the inclusions and package inclusions and investment and everything is, that these are my packages. But pretty much every single quote I send out will be custom in some way, because every business has different needs, is at different stages, needs different things or will need them in the future. So, yes, I do, but also they can be quite custom.

Josh: 

Okay. So my challenge for you, katie we’re just going to dive right into coaching time with Katie and Josh here. Okay, so what I would do? I feel like you’re far enough along to where you have a decent set of clients and customers and projects, where there’s probably similar ones. Like this one is, like you said, stages. So maybe a lot of clients are in stage one, many of them are in stage two, a few like really great ones who are investment minded and have budgets. They’re stage three. Branding, web design, seo, care are all mixed in between all those but I imagine there’s all of them need like strategy, basic strategy at least, and basic stuff. What I would do if I were you to conquer the fear of raising rates is really articulate each one of these three tiers, like the small, the medium, large, and what you can do is have like a starter style package that includes branding, or maybe it doesn’t include branding, I don’t know. You could basically just create like a starter range, a starter tier, and that will vary depending on what people need, but at least it starts at like 2500, for example. And then your main tier, your most projects, most clients will fit in your main middle tier. That could be like a four or $5,000 tier and if you’re doing branding and logo and everything else with that, that might be 7,500 or 10K at some point here. And then you have a top tier for the ones who really want it all. They want like all the branding, all the logo, all the SEO, all the web design, all the strategy, and then you can have a top tier to get like the 10, 15, $20,000 projects. Those will be fewer than like the main middle projects. But that’s what I would do is just have those three different ranges. That way it’s so there’s no risk. Like you have the. I think the problem right now that’s not a problem, but I think what’s holding you back right now is you don’t have a higher tier for, like your really high value clients. So that’s my coaching recommendation is to just basically take what you have right now and just make it a little more clear where somebody should be, and then those three different packages and they’re going to vary in between each one of those packages. But that way you could just like if you get somebody who has a big budget and they’re an amazing client, then they’re going to be ready for package three. That starts at, you know 10,000 and goes up from there. So that’s what I would do, I think. If you really solidified and clarified those ranges, I think that would just. I mean you could two or three X your revenue, probably by the end of the year just by doing that. So, whatever that would look like it, the question would then be like what do you offer in the way of strategy, branding and website? Within each one of these packages? You could limit certain things, but if somebody wants to get to the you know $20,000 range, but right now they’re at a $5,000 range, you could say, well, let’s start here, let’s build the website, do the basics and then, as your revenue starts to grow, we get more conversions. Then we can do more and more. So that’s always an option too, depending on what you’re doing.

Katie: 

Yeah, and it’s interesting offering people that staggered approach as well, because you know it can feel like a big investment to business owners. But actually what I do and what I found has really helped me is that I’ve been flexible. In you know, I’ve kind of offered a bespoke quote at the beginning of the process and they’ve gone. That’s a lot of money but we can go okay. Well, let’s look at what you need right now. What you need is a new website, a branding refresh. Let’s work on that first and then you know because, again, it’s quite a big step and then you know, from that we can build on an online store. Later on we can add in your courses or whatever. So people kind of get you know, they get bogged down in like this is everything I want from a website right now and I want to make it all happen. But also I found from their point of view that and this is a whole nother rabbit hole that we could go down in terms of content collection from clients. Is that actually working together on a website and always say to people we’re going to be working together, because I need so much from you about your business. I need images, I need content, I need words. Actually, business owners can get really overwhelmed with the amount of content that they need to provide to me anyway, and that’s before thinking about an online course, an online shop. But it tends to be that a lot of business owners are like, right, this is what everything I want from my new website, and then you’ll send them a quote and they’ll go okay. So then let’s strip it back to the bare bones and then later on we can add your online course next year. Let’s look at your goals for next year and reset things, so people are happy that you can kind of take that staggered approach. I think.

Josh: 

Yep, I think, yeah, the phases I call it phase, you know phases out like phase one, phase two, phase three, staggered it’s a great term too, and I think that’s where the idea of these ranges, even if these ranges are almost just internal for you, katie, you could just say, like I have, you know, three packages that start here, here and here. And yeah, if you’re not ready for package three, then package two is a great place to start for this phase. Or, you know, we’ll start here for the next few months and then we could do more in this next phase. I think that’s a great way to go. And again, what you just said there, what I saw on you there, was that you know your rates need to go up and you’re adding way more value than you’re charging for. You’re established enough, you’re getting results enough, you’re professional enough to where I yeah, I don’t know what the pricing is exactly, but I dare say we could probably raise things 20 to 25%. And the cool thing is you could just keep your first package with where your rates are now, but then just offer, you know, but maybe take a little bit out of what you’re doing right now, add that into the main package at, let’s say, 5000 for simplicity sake, and then a $10,000 package for those who are like, yeah, we’re ready, because you will get some clients who are ready to rock and they’re ready to go for like a 10K package or a 20K package. So, yeah, that’s super exciting. I think everything you’ve done to this point has really led you to where you’re at now, which is now it’s time to refine your offers, up your pricing and really get clarity on the proposal side of things and I really just clarity of, like, the phases and journeys of your clients, because, yeah, you’ve done things great. Now it’s just a matter of, yeah, making more and working less. That’s kind of where we’re at now make more, work less, yes, yes. The other thing I was going to say too honestly, katie, like I know you’re still feeling a pull to be more active on all these other socials. I don’t know if you need to, with the fact that you know, like, like we’ve talked about before in pro, web designers don’t need that many clients, so you don’t need to be like out everywhere, like you can’t handle a ton of clients, especially as a solopreneur right now. So, yeah, I feel like you know, doubling down on what’s working with Instagram, keeping a basic presence on Facebook and LinkedIn if you wanted to, but then really getting serious about the services you’re offering, those packages, clarity on where clients fit into that’s, I think, what’s really going to accelerate you for the next, the next little while. So, my gosh, I’m excited for you. I mean, I don’t know. I mean, you have to. It has to be cool, right? One of my favorite things in pro is when somebody disappears and then my hope is what happens with you is that they come back and they’re like oh, my gosh, I’m sorry, I’ve been swamped. And that’s exactly what happened, because our last conversation was you were like oh, I’m, you know, there’s not much in the pipeline. What should I do? What are some ideas? And then you disappeared and then you came back and said you were a swamp. So gotta be an exciting point in your business.

Katie: 

That must be funny for you, because you think, oh, okay, someone’s disappeared, let’s hope they’ve got really busy because they’ve been taking in everything that you know we’ve been working on and I’ve been saying, but yeah, it’s honestly, I had a really low point in around about February this year where, like I said, I was transitioning between one business and another business but honestly, nothing was happening with either of them and I I was kind of thinking, okay, this was the closest point I’ve ever been since working for myself to going and getting a job somewhere. Because I was like, okay, what am I doing here? I’m putting all this content out there, I’m blogging every week, I’m banging the same drum over and over again. What’s going on? And I was thinking with you know, it’s with the wedding cake business. February is always quite a quiet time of year for that anyway. And then with this business, I was like, well, I feel like I’m doing everything I can. What’s going on? So I literally got in touch with people, I know who, you know work in the design industry and was like help me, I need to find work. And you know, I was going to start going to agencies and stuff. And then I was like, no, I need to just kind of shift my mindset a bit and I think I again I was sitting in this comfort zone of oh, but it’s fine, wedding cake work will come to me, and then I was like but that’s not, that’s not what I want anymore. So I need to move away from that and I need to make a shift and I need to just go for it and I think, yeah, that was a really tough time actually, because that was that was even harder than during COVID time, because during COVID there was nothing. I felt like I didn’t have any work, but there was no. There was nothing to go and spend your money on, except earlier this year. It was like, okay, life continues, but there’s no money coming in and what’s going on. But what I’ve really learned is that if you just keep going it’s like you said earlier, it’s about all of those things that I’ve put into place they are working. You just go through a bit of a stage where nothing happens and then suddenly things start to happen. They just do yeah, yeah.

Josh: 

Oh, I’m fascinated by that time period that you went through, one that goes through a drought like that, where you’re like you know you get into desperation mode or panic mode pretty quickly when things are not going so well on either front. I’m honestly, katie, I’m quite impressed that you had the the gumption to just say, like, like, there it didn’t seem like there was anything stopping you from getting a job or quitting something, but you, you found it within yourself to stick with it, which is amazing. Did you start networking right then?

Katie: 

Yeah.

Josh: 

When you started doing in-person networking.

Katie: 

Exactly. Then I was like right, Well, you know, I could just literally like you, literally got up, you physically changed your surrounding. I did. I remember the first networking evening I went to was like 29th of February or no, that date doesn’t exist most years, 28th of February, let’s go with that Somewhere around there. And I, because I just I had this kind of and again, like I said earlier, I think it was you talking to me inside of my head from one of your blog post episodes, saying networking really works, Just go out and do it, You’ve got nothing to lose. And so I was like do you know what? I can just sit here and feel sorry for myself behind this computer screen and you know, just keep on going around in this hamster wheel and doing the same things. If I don’t do something different, nothing’s going to be different, so just try it and it changed everything really for me. And although I haven’t found a regular networking group, I’ve found a lot of really interesting groups here in London that I’ve found some genuinely interesting people that to collaborate with. I’ve met a copywriter that I now work with on projects. So if it’s not directly to get work, it’s just to continue building that network. And you know like like you’ve always said as well that it might. You might not meet your ideal clients at that particular event, but their clients or their people might be your next clients. So it’s just about thinking, okay, I’ll meet one person. I don’t just meet one person, I meet all of their network as well, because as soon as you connect with them online, you instantly open up a whole new world by meeting them. So, yeah, that’s what changed it for me. It changed my mindset. It reminded me that I need to get up and get out from behind my desk, because it’s just not good a lot of the time to be working from home all the time. And that’s how it’s all happened, from there, really.

Josh: 

Katie. That is amazing. I think that is the perfect capper on this conversation. I so appreciate you being transparent and sharing that low point that you had early this year because, yeah, things did turn around very quickly. So I’m so excited for you that things are swapped and you got such a great marketing strategy in place. And I know it Look, no one’s marketing strategy is perfect and the top gurus in the world are changing constantly too, like we’re all keeping up with what’s going on. But you’re doing a really good job at adapting and being nimble when it comes to like well, should I put my focus here or emphasis here? I think you’re doing an incredible job, and this is just the start. You’re only like a year and a half a couple of years into it. So, my gosh, you’re light years ahead of where I was, two years into my business. So I can’t wait to see where Katie is in summer of 2024. I’ll tell you right now it’s going to be wild. So I’m super, super excited for you, yeah.

Katie: 

I mean, yeah, it’s, I don’t know. One thing I would say is a kind of a little takeaway from what I’ve learned about marketing is I’m the kind of person who and I am a massive perfectionist and that works. It’s detrimental to me most of the time to be a perfectionist, I can tell you, but it’s remembering. You know, I like structure and I like it. Everything’s got to be just so. But actually that doesn’t necessarily work with a marketing strategy, because the best marketing is all about testing, as I’ve discovered, and actually just taking action. And while it’s called messy, action is better than no action. Like just do something even if it feels a bit messy or it doesn’t fit in with this or that, or just do it and see what happens.

Josh: 

That’s kind of you know. It’s funny that come makes the well, my most popular post from this year. So far or maybe in the end of last year, I think it was this year in 2023, the most like highly engaged post was all the content I had planned and created nice fancy graphics for they would do so so. But I saw all these web designers complaining about their clients and some web design groups and I was like we just need to freaking, stop complaining about our clients. So I took my phone out, open notes up and I just said, hey, web designers, stop bitching about your clients and let’s be thankful for them and empower them. And I posted that like spur of the moment, right, so you remember it, and that was like one of the most engaged posts I had. And it was spur of the moment. It was messy, I was not planned. So that is the beauty of social media is, I think it’s. I think those do end up being the best posts, the ones that are off the cuff, messy, nothing fancy, just a little note or whatever you want to say. So, yeah, I just when you were talking about that, that’s what came to mind. Like you know, I didn’t plan that out. It wasn’t in a list of ideas, it was just a spur of the moment thing and that’s what kind of caught on for a little while there.

Katie: 

Yeah, and you know we’re all humans. Let’s be honest, it’s a bit messy. So, and humans buy from humans, so they’ll people will relate to you much more if you’re just a bit more human, I think.

Josh: 

Oh, yes, Gosh. So many good points. Katie, this has been awesome. This has been awesome. You have really really dished out some gold in this one. Thank you so much for sharing what’s working for you. Again, I can’t wait to see the next evolution, so we’ll we’ll get back in touch and pro to talk about scaling and the marketing or the refining of your packages and stuff. But thank you so much for again sharing what’s working for you, and this is just phase one, so I can’t wait to see what happens over the next year or so.

Katie: 

Thank you. Thank you so much. It’s been amazing to be on the show Finally. It’s great.

Josh: 

Finally, well, you’ve been awesome, katie. Thank you so much, and I don’t think this will be the last time, because we might need to talk marketing. Maybe we’ll have a specific marketing episode on round two. That sounds good.

Katie: 

Yeah, love to.

Josh: 

Deal. Thanks, katie. There we have it, my friends. I’m so thankful for Katie coming on today and for being open about sharing what’s worked for her and her business and some of the lessons learned that she’s had in her business as a young freelancer and a young web designer as far as you know in the game. But she hit on a lot of important things here, not only marketing strategies and the things you can do to grow your business, but also, I think, one thing I really appreciate. I appreciate about Katie is the persistence and the mindset things that she went through and has continued to go through. I mean, she really got to a point, like she talks about, where a lot of people probably would have thrown in the towel quite honestly, but she did not. And there’s a lot of value to being in a place where, if you know you have a solid business, you have a support system around you, you know you can do it. Sometimes you do just have to get through those tough periods, through those little valleys, and then something amazing is right around the corner. Again, like I mentioned in the intro, it was January 25th of this year that Katie let me know that she was really in kind of desperation mode and then, not even two months later, she swapped Welcome to web design friends. That’s how it works. I would love to be your support system Again. You can get coaching from me directly. You can hang out with Katie and get to know all the other web designer pros inside of web designer pro my coaching community. Go to joshallco, as always. If you have any questions, just let me know. You can email me, josh at joshallco. I do make sure all personal notes get to me in my email. I would be happy to answer any questions you have and for now, I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Katie Lake. Again, be sure to go check her out at studio logo designcom. Follow her on Instagram. We’ll have all the links at the show notes for this episode at joshallco. So 80 such a great example. I’m so fired up for Katie and I’m fired up for you too, any web designer. Right now there’s so much opportunity. Ai is not going to destroy us of anything. Just want a webmaster. They want your web, their own web person. That, my friends as you, you just got to have a good business and provide something for them, and I would love to help you do just that. So I hope you enjoyed this one. Leave me a comment. Let me know if you did and if you would, if you’ve been enjoying the podcast. I’ve been a little light on reviews recently. It would mean the world to me if you left a review on Apple and Spotify. However you do it on Spotify, I don’t even know, I’ve never left a review on Spotify, but if you would leave a review, it’d be so helpful for the show. Thank you so much and I’ll see you on the next episode.

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