439 – Why We’re Sticking with Divi 5 with Ania Romańska

Ania Romańska 0:00

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve absolutely been tempted by uh other tools throughout all these years. We had oxygen that I was very keen. I even built one site for a client, but look how it turned out, right? There’s always something, um all these nice tools, but um I think and I’ve all uh always said that that that it’s better to really uh master one tool properly uh rather than be kind of good to know a little of five different solutions. So I guess it comes down to choosing the tool that makes you fast and efficient.

Josh Hall 0:42

Welcome to

Welcome And Divi5 Context

Josh Hall 0:43

the Web Design Business Podcast with your host, Josh Hall, helping you build a web design business that gives you freedom and a lifestyle you love. Hello, my friends. It’s so good to have you here. Now, there has been a lot of change in the landscape for Divi, which is the website builder that I’ve been using since 2014. And they’ve had a big transition over the past couple years, moving from Divi4 to Divi5, which is a complete rebuild of the platform. And it has been a very long and painstaking sometimes drawn-out process for uh the official launch of Divi5, which is officially live now. But I say that because there’s a lot of Divi users who have left or have moved on or have added additional builders into their suite and into their tool stack. But I am somebody who has stuck with Divi and plans to stick with Divi. And I’m not alone. My guess in this episode, Anya, with Divi Lover was actually episode three of the podcast. It’s been a while since I’ve had her on the show, but uh we reconnected more recently. And Anya, if you don’t know her brand, Divi Lover, is absolutely one of the best designers in the Divi realm. And I’ve leaned on her and learned a lot from her over the years with just really good design principles, but also design systems. She really has a knack for not only making something look absolutely high-converting and beautiful from a design aesthetic, but she just has a really good mind for building systems that are sustainable and maintainable for the long haul. And in this conversation, we’re really digging into that mindset and how she’s applying that with Divi5 and some of the reasons why she is sticking with Divi5, even though, just like all Divi users, we’ve had to be really patient over this transition period. So that’s what we’re digging into in this one. Now, before

Divi5 Workshop Offer And Discount

Josh Hall 2:46

we dive in, Anya is going to be hosting the Divi5 Design System Workshop very soon at the time of releasing this episode, September 7th through the 9th, here in September 2026. This session is an absolute bargain at only 97 bucks to learn how to build a Divi5 design system. But if you use my link, Josh Hall at checkout, that’s gonna take 30% off this workshop. It’s gonna drop your price down to 67. It is three days. It is a hands-on workshop where you are gonna learn how to set up global variables, presets, and all of the most important aspects of a Divi design system that you can use on your site and all future Divi5 builds for you and your agency moving forward. So if you’re looking to learn Divi5 and learn from somebody who is just one of the best in the business, again, I’m really not teaching too far about Divi into the future. I’m really focusing on the business side of web design, but I don’t want to leave you hanging. And Anya is absolutely who I recommend learning from. In fact, I’m gonna be there. I’m gonna be there learning from Anya and this because I’ve got a little bit stale uh with Divi5. I’ve been using it personally for over two years at this point, since it was fresh out of beta, but I haven’t really kept up with a lot of the updates. So I’m really behind on variables and presets and some of the things that Divi5 can do. So I’ll be right alongside you. Again, I hope to see you there. If you want to learn Divi5 to make way more money and to be more efficient with your Divi5 builds, go to the link below or go to joshhall.co slash workshop, which will take you there and use code JoshHall at checkout, which will give you 30% off the workshop. So I hope to see you there on September 7th. Without further ado, here’s my conversation with Anya, why we’re sticking with Divi5. And if you’d like to go to all the links we mentioned, go to the show notes at this episode, which are gonna be at joshhall.co slash four three nine. All right, here’s Anya. Anya,

Reconnecting With Anya And Divi OGs

Josh Hall 4:47

round two, and we’ve got some bad weather on your end that tried to keep us away, so we had to move to Zoom. So I hope this uh still sounds good for everybody. But uh Zoom is just so so dang reliable. So it’s it’s all good stuff. We are here, and it’s been a long time. Uh you were episode three years. You were episode three. I can’t believe it’s been that long since you’ve been on the podcast. I’m so excited to catch up. You recently joined the the coaching tier for Web Designer Pro, and we’ve really got a chance to catch up in a different capacity now, uh, because I’ve got to kind of see how you’ve evolved and what you’re planning to do with your business moving forward. And uh yeah, I’m really excited to finally do a round two here with you. I guess mainly to talk about Divi, because you and I are Divi OGs. We have had built up our internet presence largely around Divi. So if that sounds good to you, I figure we’ll just dig in and uh maybe share just kind of our experience because we’re we’re sticking with it. We’re not in the group that jumped ship on it. So if that sounds good, I figure that’s what we’ll dive into on this one.

Ania Romańska 5:53

Yeah. Thanks for having me, Josh.

Josh Hall 5:56

The uh the first episode we kind of talked about how you’re balancing life as a mom with very little kiddos. The kiddos have grown up a little bit since we chatted last, since that was what, six, seven years ago? Yeah.

Ania Romańska 6:11

Two years back. The kids has have grown. My oldest is already going off to university. So yeah, it’s been definitely a change in how uh much time I have for to work. So yeah, a nice change, I have to say. I enjoy kids being a bit older.

Josh Hall 6:29

Nice change on the work front. I hear, I know, because ours are still eight, six, and three, so we’re in the thick of it right now. But I by no means am I rushing these years away, but I have heard that you get to a certain point where work starts to settle in a little more. So um, it’s really cool to see your journey, Anya, and to see you like continue to. I know you’ve had seasons of of different launches, but you’ve remained consistent with with Divi Lover. Is it 10 years old now?

Ania Romańska 6:58

Yes, exactly. It’s been my 10th uh anniversary. The Facebook reminded me of this, like of the since the pages started. I was I’ve been like, yeah, it’s been 10 years. I haven’t done any, you know, I should do like a big birthday thing, but I’ve just been so busy. It’s hard to find the time. But yes, it’s been 10 years since the uh since the whole DV um adventure started for me. So when you ask if I’m sticking with it, yes, definitely. For me, there’s like no way, um no other way I could imagine something.

Josh Hall 7:31

Yeah, well, don’t get me started on ideas for a 10-year promotion. I’ll I’ll I’ll DM you in pro about that. But um, because it’s never too late, celebrate a decade. But you’re totally right. I think that’s a really important note that a lot of other Divi users and agency owners feel too, is like there are so many businesses that are built on Divi when a lot of us started using it, yeah, 10, 12, 13 years ago. And it is not a quick or easy change or anything to take lightly to just change your platform. And of course, you are somebody who’s in the education side of things now with Divi, but you’re also still using Divi and doing white label for for other agencies.

Divi History And Long Rebuild

Josh Hall 8:11

So yeah, I’m kind of curious, like, well, so when did when did you, when you started with Divi and you started Divi Lover, do you remember the version that you started with? Because we’ll get into Divi5, but I’m just kind of curious backing up real quick for some context.

Ania Romańska 8:23

It was definitely before the theme builder, like the before DV4, but not super early. I know a lot of uh people who’ve been uh who’ve been with Divi for much longer than I did, but I don’t remember the exact version. Two something or maybe three already. I remember the big 100 days to DV3 uh promotion they did. So it had to be two something when I started.

Josh Hall 8:48

Okay. Yeah, yeah. They yeah, for anyone who wasn’t using Divi back then, yeah, they did it, which was such a genius marketing play. Like it was huge. And that’s when I started blogging. That’s when I started blogging for elegant things. I remember it was just it was massive, like the amount of buzz. Because yeah, they did 100 days to Divi3, and that was the launch of the theme builder. I really it’s it’s a marketing move that’s worth going back to and looking at how they did that and just replicating again. I don’t know if I would do something for a hundred days, but uh I don’t know. It’s definitely a commitment. It’s a commitment. I mean, in a way, but I think we knew the day. That was a plus and we didn’t even know that is a really good point because with Divi5, it’s been more like 300 and you know, 90 some days. Um but of course, you know, it is different. Divi5 is different in the way of, and I want to get your context on this as somebody who knows the theme so well and has been in the ecosystem, but I feel like you know, the the launch to the 100 days to Divi back when Divi 3.0 came out. I want to say that was 2016, maybe fall of 2016. So just probably like just about a decade ago. Um, but Divi5, I feel like is different because they couldn’t put like an official launch date. And I don’t know, and yes, there’s plenty of frustrations that you, myself, and others have had as Divi users with a very long and drawn out next phase, but at the same time, I don’t know if there was really a way to to go about it any differently.

Speaker 1 10:19

Yeah, to it’s different.

Josh Hall 10:22

Yeah, because I and I do trust Nick and the team because I think what would have been way worse is if they would have promised Divi5 on a certain date and then it’s not ready, or it just looks bad if they’re like six months behind. So, in a way, I think it was probably the safest way to you know do a new theme, essentially.

Ania Romańska 10:41

And uh uh Nick um at one point they changed the approach. They do the feature swap when uh they decided to add new features instead of recreating Dv4 as it was, and that uh that’s when it already started becoming so much better even in the uh alpha stage. So uh, you know, I think it was sure. We had to be patient, but it wasn’t so bad. And yeah, my frustrations were probably a bit different uh than the average web designers, because since D5 was still in alpha, I made uh the call to uh re-record my entire DV size academy from scratch. So the frustrating part for me was you know, these little bugs, you were trying to record a lesson and the one tiny thing isn’t working as expected. And normally if your goal is to just make it work, there’s usually like a quick CSS fix. But if you’re trying to present a clean, easy, step-by-step way of doing something, um then it kind of gets uh frustrating. So having to keep the course updated is my frustration with DV, but it’s I guess uh different from uh from average uh web DV user, I guess. But just watching my students go through through it, uh you know, this little bags, unreliable behavior along the way, that was the the frustrating part. Um but yeah, I guess that’s where the good understanding of how websites work come in played, where you can quickly go past these little things. I’ve never had a bug that like stopped me without being able to move on with with whatever thing that I was building.

Josh Hall 12:29

So these are little things, but I think it’s much much more stable now, hasn’t it? I feel like the bugs have haven’t been near like they were, you know, six months to a year ago.

Ania Romańska 12:40

Oh yes, definitely. There are still like little things to iron out for sure, but I am loving it for sure. I can uh you know put my name under uh all the praises for for the new uh the V5 version, it’s been quite uh an improvement. And you know, we focus on the bags and bad things because these are the things we see like on the Facebook groups, for example, people don’t come there to praise how everything is going great. They only come there if they have issues. So kind of this is what we see, only that part. But I think it’s also important to appreciate all the great things that are already there and working great. So yeah.

Josh Hall 13:24

Well, even though your frustrations are slightly different, um, it is. I mean, there are a lot of people who do have Divi5 at scale on all their client sites, and then yeah, if something changes with presets or variables or a CSS thing, then that does become a much more complicated issue. But it it’s not unique to Divi. That’s gonna be the case with any theme. And that’s one thing I think a lot of people who jump ship really early, maybe I don’t know if they just haven’t thought it through necessarily, but it’s like every theme is going to go through this. And one I think it’s gonna be interesting because Divi was such a uh night and day difference back a decade ago when they did release the the theme, the visual builder, and it was pretty, I mean, quite frankly, revolutionary for its time. It really was like the industry leader. And then I’m just wondering, you know, over the next few years, I think a lot of other platforms are gonna get to the similar place where are they gonna duct tape and put band-aids on a bunch of you know little features and solutions, or are they gonna do a ground-up rebuild, which is what Divi5 is, which is why it was a painstaking long process between the different versions and variations. Um now I’m kind of curious because your I feel like your um relationship with Divi5 was at first, you seemed to jump on it. I remember your Divi design system being like one of the first things that I saw as far as like a new resource on Divi5. And of course, the frustration came after that because as soon as you recorded all those tutorials, every new feature that was added meant you would have to go in and redo everything. So I do feel for you as a fellow course creator there. But how has your when did it when did it move from like, okay, this is like there’s a lot of frustrations, a lot of bugs, to when was the like, okay, this turned? It

Bugs Turning Point And Staying Put

Josh Hall 15:14

seems like everyone in their DV5 journey had a turning point. When was your turning point?

Ania Romańska 15:19

Uh I think right before they uh right before the official D V5 release. I I I remember um recording DV design system in December, and then February was where uh we were supposed to uh have the new version. I was waiting, I now I remember, I was waiting for because the the whole point behind my uh DV design system in seven steps is to create a template, so JSON file that you then import on every new project as a starting base with all the um you know your variables, presets already there, just to tweak rather than start from scratch. So that was the idea. And the missing link, the missing part for me was the import and export process. It didn’t initially include all the presets in the file. There were like missing bits, and and there, like there was no point in you know creating it if you can’t import it correctly. But I remember uh elegant themes fixed it when they released their own design system uh for Black Friday uh sale uh last year. That’s when the import process started to work as I was hoping for, and that’s where I could uh you know explain the process because we already had all the pieces, the variables, the presets, and the the whole idea of uh working with predefined uh values that you then just choose from rather than pick as you go. Um that was already there, just the missing functionality. So as soon as basically all my bugs were fixed, that’s where I uh decided to record it because it was very um like one of the biggest changes in uh how we work uh with DV now, building on the design system. It was not possible in Dv4, definitely to use any like CLAM, for example. Like the CSS CLAM function, you know, for fluid typography, fluid anything existed when Dv54 was around, but uh if we were to use it, it meant overwriting everything that’s in the builder with custom CSS. And now we can use it, just pick our values and enjoy everything looking great on all screen sizes. So yeah, uh just waiting out the bags that were stopping me. That was my my point when I decided to record everything. Uh the course, the main TV size academy. I probably started a bit too soon, if I’m honest. So maybe I already like there’s several lessons I’ve re-recorded several times, actually. So that has been a challenge for sure. But it was meant for early adapters for uh all the folks that wanted to jump in and already had have that head start even before the official release. So yeah, I’m still happy that I did it.

Josh Hall 18:13

Yeah, I feel like I’ve seen I’ve seen this with you and I’ve seen this with a lot of others who have stuck with Divi through this very long transition period. Again, understandably so. I’d rather it be a long transition period than something be like broken to a point where it’s like irreversible. Um, did you so there’s it seems like there’s always yeah, that that point where they just made a pass and then they suddenly go from like it’s a big learning curve to frustrations to like, oh, I’m loving this now. I can’t imagine. I mean, even I I actually still technically have Db4 live on JoshHall.co this fall I’m gonna be moving it over to five.

Ania Romańska 18:51

Um and when I’m back in the four builder, I’m like, oh my gosh, this is you know, this is medieval compared to exactly like you know, people complain about the new interface. And I wasn’t in love, uh like that wasn’t love for the from the first side on my end as well. Like you there is like this change, right? It’s different. So we are not used to it. It feels wrong, it’s not supposed to look this way. Dv4 was better and all that, but you get used to the good uh things so quickly, you quickly forget that it’s maybe not exactly the same as it was, but it’s just super quick and super nice. Like the whole editing experience is just a hundred times uh nicer. Uh so yes, when I have to go back to any Dv4 project, it’s like so much slower.

Josh Hall 19:40

Was there ever a point when five was announced and then they started giving beta access? Was there ever a point where you were like, I don’t know if I can stick with Divi, especially if you didn’t like it at first and it was filled with bugs? Because I it’s different in your case, because literally your brand, Divi, is in the name. So it would have taken you know a lot to make use, which but did you ever have a feeling like of real concern in if you just didn’t like the interface at first and everything?

Ania Romańska 20:12

Uh the dislike of the interface that was just like maybe a day or two really. So uh yeah, and as you as you noted, the my whole business is built around Divi, so it would really have to be so horrible for me to uh to consider. And you know, don’t get me wrong, I’ve absolutely been tempted by uh other tools throughout all these years. Elementor maybe not so much, but we had oxygen that I was very keen. I even build one site for a client, but look how it turned out, right? There’s always something, um all these nice tools, but um I think and I’ve all uh always said that that it’s better to really uh master one tool properly rather than be kind of good to know a little of five different solutions. So you know, clients don’t care what tool you’re using, they care about the result and whether the website helps them meet their business goals and how fast and reliable you are with delivering the website. So I guess it comes down to choosing the tool that makes you fast and efficient, and D5 does it so much better. Um and you know, with bugs, if you know HTML and CSS, like if you understand how websites are built, and for me that’s always been something I try to teach and explain uh even to someone who’s not maybe so um into learning how to code or anything, but just that understanding of uh how website is built helps you navigate this little bug squirts or whatever Dv5 may throw. Issue. So if you know how to deal with things not working exactly as they should, it’s not such a big problem. So I haven’t had like at the moment, okay, this isn’t going to work. I was more like, okay, I hope they will fix that in the next release. Always checking the change log, like what has been fixed? Are my things that I have on my list? Are they there? And things like that. But I’ve never gave up on it completely. You know, it’s just, you know, part of what I do. And since you know, my whole business is about serving big web designers and helping them. Uh I can’t imagine uh any other way. Like I would need to abandon all my clients and okay, just work with that yourself. I’m off to, I don’t know, vibe coding it with AI or something.

Josh Hall 22:51

No, you’re too good for vibe coding on it.

Ania Romańska 22:53

That’s something I consider. No.

Josh Hall 22:55

No, you’re too good for vibe coding. The world needs you. The world needs your mind on. Yeah, it is interesting because like you build, you know, I’ve said this publicly many a time, so I’m just gonna say it again publicly here now for those who haven’t heard me say this. But I still view you as like one of the best designers, particularly in the d the Divi side of things, because like your designs have always been like world-class. And the extra superpower you have is it doesn’t just look pretty, it functions pretty. And that those are two very different things. Like a lot of people can design nice if it’s uh you know on on Figma or just like a flat design, but when it comes to like building a design system that is repeatable and that is scalable and maintainable, that is a whole nother ballgame. And that’s actually an area of weakness for me that I’m I selfishly like want to go through your your upcoming workshop, which we’ll talk about, and I need to basically like redesign Web Designer Pro.com just because I didn’t really build it with a great design system. In a way, it’s a small site and it’s okay just because it won’t take that much to to essentially rebuild it. Um but I started similarly using Divi5 early, early on. Like well, before I would advise anyone to go live with it, but I literally didn’t have any additional plugins, so I didn’t really, you know. There was a couple times where suddenly I’d log in and because of caching or because of an update a few things would look wonky, but to what you said a bit ago, because I know how to troubleshoot and fix things or have some help on doing that in pro, uh, we got stuff sorted. But yeah, like I just appreciate the fact that you think about function under design, which I guess what is that?

Design Systems 101 With Variables

Josh Hall 24:35

What when you think about creating a design system, what are the main aspects of that? Like when somebody’s thinking about Divi5 and they’re thinking about creating a design system, but they may not know what that means or how to go about it. What what was almost like a 101 list of things that people should think about when they are creating a design system?

Ania Romańska 24:55

So, yeah, I think it mainly comes uh to comes down to making all the decisions upfront, or at least as many decisions as you can upfront. And I’ve been uh teaching this approach even before we had all the tools now uh built in into the builder. I always uh explained that before you start a project, you have to define your colors and not just like three colors, free brown colors, but all the shades that you might need, like darker, lighter versions. And then uh with uh typography, you want to define the sizes. So you should know like what are the uh all your heading level sizes on desktop, mobile, and and you know, in between now that can be fluid, of course. But making all these decisions up front and then putting them in one place uh in DB, it helps you keep things consistent. You don’t like you’re not choosing, eyeballing uh everything, uh you’re not doing like 100 micro decisions as you build. You have everything in place before you start building. And sure, like it can adjust as you go. It’s kind of uh difficult to know all the things that you’re going to need for the website, but you can have some idea if you do have like the visual direction you want to the website to take, defining all the pieces, the pieces that uh define that visual direction in code in forms of variables, in forms of presets. That gives you like this nice space where when you go to start building out the content, it’s just choosing one of your predefined things, not thinking over or or misjudging what was the size, you know, because in the V4 we had to like what was the H2 on tablet? And then you go to a like the previously created page, check out like what I did here. Let’s copy the so without doing that, without picking colors from the color wheel, oh, this looks okay, let’s use that. Without that part, just having all the decisions made up front. That’s what design system helps you uh so you don’t have to think about it and then just enjoy using all the nice things that you’ve designed beforehand as you as a build. And that makes building much quicker. And with like a nice template up front, with some of these decisions, because you know, things like box shadow, they aren’t much different from side to side. Sure, you like of course they can be different, but you can tweak things uh on the next project rather than starting from scratch. So a design system, basically a page, or right now it couldn’t be a DV canvas, so something that you have access from from uh every page uh that holds all the um visual information about uh about your site. That’s what the it it does, and that’s what it’s super helpful uh when then you know building out a page. And you can add to it as you go, uh modify it, uh of course, but you have that base um and it’s really a different building experience with something like that as a starting point.

Josh Hall 28:09

That’s such a good overview. I I mean I was doing this back in 2014 and 2015, but the difference was, especially back a decade ago when I was using Divi, they had the theme customizer, which was just super limited. So, yes, you could set heading sizes, but it was like one toggle and it was, yeah, I see you’re taking your head. It was not a true design system. So inevitably what I would do is start there, but then I would just CSS everything. And I would have like CSS button style one or primary and then an accent button, and I would have H1s, H2s, H3s, certain styles for you know other elements that were going to be more global styles, but it was all CSS.

Ania Romańska 28:53

And yes, and then sorry to interrupt, but then if you uh have a CSS that needs to override whatever is that is in the builder, if you want your heading levels to always win, always work in the way that you’ve defined them in CSS, that means that the thing that you’re setting in the builder is no longer uh you know being used. So if that’s for yourself, then I guess it’s fine. If you know CSS, you’re comfortable with it, that’s fine, the website looks okay. But if the client wants to do any sort of uh like have some control over it, they are trying to change the size and it’s not possible. Like there was a downside to using CSS for sure. And even though we had presets in V4, they were module element presets, right? So if you wanted to have your heading levels, not in the CSS, but in the builder, you would set your headings separately for develops, separately for the, I don’t know, call to actions. And then in the text modules, every module had its own styling for uh for headings. Even if saved as the default preset, you would still have to save it in all these different places. So now option group presets, which is like a game changer in terms of uh how we build uh and how all the design modifications connect, option group presets allow you to define your headings. Well, I would love to say in one place, but it’s actually in two places. But yes, even though it’s only in two places where you define all your headings, one for the modules that include all the headings, so like text module where you can include different heading levels. So that’s like a different option group, and then your titles. And the title option group applies to all modules. So just one preset that controls all the headings, like one you would have six like for each heading level or or less if you don’t need as many, but you can then add a blur choosing which style it uses this H3. But it’s like semantically H2, but it looks like H4. It’s super easy. There’s no overwriting, no, you know lines and lines of custom code behind it. It’s just there in the builder, easy to pick, choose, and move on. So yeah, that’s a different approach.

Josh Hall 31:13

That’s uh perfect segue because I was what I was kind of laying out is like I I use CSS to do what I couldn’t do in the Divi Builder. But then with Divi5, it’s eliminated the need for almost any CSS, really. Like, I mean, I guess you could, but like the it’s native in the builder now, but you do need to know the builder. You do need to understand these different variables. That’s why I’m personally very excited to to see that you’re like continuing on and you have some new stuff in the works with this because I feel like you are just one of the best people to learn from when it comes to creating like a super efficient design system with these different aspects of Divi5.

Five Divi5 Features That Change Work

Josh Hall 31:49

Let’s have some fun, Anya. I’d love to know, because I want to know what you still want from Divi5. But I think first, give me, can you give me like your your top favorite five features? What are like the five features that you love about Divi5 that have been most revolutionary for you and your workflow?

Ania Romańska 32:06

You know that I’ve recorded the five things I love most uh about uh Divi5 uh video. So I guess I have like five groups for you uh ready because you know so many uh things uh have uh changed, uh obviously.

Josh Hall 32:22

Is that live? I missed that. Did I is that live?

Ania Romańska 32:25

Yeah, it’s I’ve not been active on my YouTube channel too much, but it’s been live for quite a few months already, just around the time that Dv5 was released is where I uh when I recorded it, and it still stands. So I do have five things uh that I love about Dv5. I can give you like a quick, super quick overview. Uh, number one is definitely the new builder speed, the one-click editing. You know, it’s you feel that change instantly. Everything is faster. You click on an element and then you are already in it, editing it. You can you know use your keyboard to navigate between things. Basically, the whole editing experience is just so much nicer than Dv5. So we already talked about the first impressions and how they can be wrong uh once you get used to it. So that’s definitely has to be the one of the you know my favorite things about Dv5 is just the new editing experience. Number two is responsive editing. So many people have been struggling to optimize Dv4 websites for mobile. Like if you know CSS, then it’s okay. Like you still have to write quite a lot, a lot of media queries, like doing flexbooks on your own to rearrange things on mobile. So now it’s all uh no longer needed uh in Dv4. You have your customizable breakpoints. We are no longer limited to just three breakpoints you can modify where they change, add additional ones. And then if you pair that with Clamp, with the fluid sizing that you can use as the value uh just once, there’s just like minimal mobile uh optimization needed, really. And then the editing experience when you just switch to a like tablet view, everything you edit is already there. Like no more toggling between desktop, tablet, and phone or for each control. It happens as you view the that preview. So it’s just so, so much nicer, right? And it’s it’s for one, it works almost instantly on its own with GLAMP. Minimal adjustments are needed, no custom CSS, almost none. Uh, you know, I am a sucker for CSS. So I will always find something. I can, you know, do something special extra, but for a like a solid starting basic uh website, like you said, no custom code is uh really needed. Um let’s see, number three, definitely the whole new approach of to containers and the you know, flexbox grid, uh nested modules, nested rows, the the whole approach to modifying having full control over the website structure, right? We are no longer limited to predefined columns. I guess the rows and columns have lost their semantic meaning. They no longer have to be in rows or columns, they can switch. Um in so it kind of is confusing if you um going back to my thought, if you don’t understand how HTML, how uh CSS works, it might be problematic at first, but once these concepts click, once you get how flex and grid works, it’s just you know another um super nice, okay. Let’s switch the order on mobile. Click and it’s gone. Like the grid editor, really, really lovely experience. So that has to be number uh three. Uh I would say for uh the loop builder, right? With DV4, we had the blog module. I had the entire course, dynamic content course, with so much custom code that was required for to build like custom loops, connect ACF or custom post types and display them in DV. There was like really on it was only possible either with third-party plugins or uh or custom code. So now with the loop builder, we can create any types of listings. Sure, there are some uh you know, wish list functionalities that we could extend the loop in in DV for sure, but it’s already a game changer. Like you can loop through any custom post types, you can, of course, use ACF to add different post types, organizing and maintaining the you know your website data or for clients. It’s just so, so easy uh right now with that. And lastly, just what we already discussed the design system approach, the fact that we get to have all these variables, the CSS clamp with even with the built-in um what’s the word uh generator for for all the clamp values, right? You just decide what size it has to be at which screen width, and then what size is going to be on smaller one, and it goes through it in between. And we can apply that to our typography for one, and then for spacing. So if you have your sizing scale set in clamp, you just have your like double uh XL, XLM, small spacing, and then you’re just picking, okay, this section needs extra large padding. And then it has 120 pixels on desktop, 50 on mobile, and fluid in between without anything else. So it’s you know, it’s just once everything is in place, it’s a joy to build, apart from like a few bags along the way. But like we already discussed, Chrome inspector, maybe a few CSS snippets to patch things up, or then just change to checking the change look, and we’re good to go.

Josh Hall 38:20

So yeah. So what in I’ll make sure we link to that full video for the full context for everybody.

Wishlist Menus Presets Workflow Fixes

Josh Hall 38:25

What are doesn’t need to be a certain number, but what are you looking for in DV5? What is not there yet? What are you desperate for? What is like a big pain point? They’re like, please add this. I’ll just say like I’ve got a couple. I know, like for me, like I still just am super unimpressed with the menu builder. I would love a better menu builder. It’s still in a mobile menu builder too, which I know you can do a lot, but it just looks so like unnecessarily custom as of right now and clunky. I I’m really hoping they just revolutionize the menu building for sure.

Ania Romańska 39:00

I agree. Uh I agree. And on the menu upfront, I I remember recording uh because uh I also have uh Circle community when we focus on like technical bits. So for business side of things, the friendly web designer price where you should be. But uh in my DV stays uh community, I’ve I’m also doing like this monthly walkthroughs. And I was thinking, okay, I do want to show all of these new modules that uh they released for the menu builder. And I remember saying in the introduction, um, because we had the full uh you know walkthrough on how to build a nice menu with the link module, with the drop-downs, and uh you know how to make it nice on mobile. And I remember saying, I’m not sure if that’s the final version that Elegant Themes has prepared, but I don’t want to wait any longer. I want to give you an overview of what’s now possible, like how can we now build uh mobile or just navigation in general? I have like this very nice approach to it, uh step by step. But like you said, it is kind of you know, it requires a lot of steps and a lot of understanding of all these individual pieces. And since I recorded it, I think it was February or March, not much has changed on that front. So I would uh add uh my vote uh on that a nice, like you know, just replacing old menu module with the newer version where we can connect menu from appearance menus and just go on with like not every website needs to be super custom, super fancy. We sometimes just need a nice plain uh navigation that works, uh, is uh accessible and you know, slides down, has nested submenus and all the simple stuff, like they should be um obvious and easy out of the box without much tinkering. For me, it’s a fun, you know, fun process, but I understand that if you’re just like a you know agency owner of building lots of websites, uh, websites you want to be maybe a bit faster than just you know making things perfect step by step. So yeah, manual builder would be on my uh wish list uh too.

Josh Hall 41:13

What what uh what modules would you love to see revamped? I know at the time of recording this, this episode’s gonna come out less than a couple weeks after we record it. So everything we say should be, although who knows? Maybe there’ll be another big update or two with some of the modules.

Ania Romańska 41:27

Like I know they just re- I hope we’ll see the AI uh re-being released. Have you seen the sneak peek the videos with what it’s uh going to be capable of? I am super excited for that. So as we’re recording, I I kind of feel like it’s supposed to be any day now. Uh Nick teased that a few weeks uh ago. I am super excited for that one just to kind of compare how it would uh build, because it’s supposed to build from like just a graphic visual uh PNG file, build out your entire page structure. So I would be uh super curious to compare how it would build it, you know, comparing how I would build it. Uh so yeah, that has been changes on the horizon.

Josh Hall 42:14

Doesn’t it link in with the design system too? Like so if you set a design system with variables and presets, I thought I saw in that video that the AI would assign like the proper H1s, H2s, and kind of format it. Sure.

Ania Romańska 42:28

You can uh assign uh you know uh some of the presets as defaults. So that would be, you know, you wouldn’t need to even mention it. But uh I guess if your naming convention is correct, the AI should, and you know, it’s just me guessing, but um it should work with presets so you can say use the presets that are named this, for example, uh when building uh the page and hopefully it will pick uh pick up on it. Um but yeah, super curious about that one. I don’t have any specific uh modules. Um I guess I’ll say one.

Josh Hall 43:05

Oh yeah, go ahead.

Ania Romańska 43:06

Yeah.

Josh Hall 43:07

I was just saying like the pricing module, for example. Um it’s so bad right now and so dated, it’s definitely like a Divi4 type module. I’ve had to really like customize and tweak like just you know the price. There’s a there’s a few modules that I’m like, man, it’d be really nice to have a, you know, just but is it really?

Ania Romańska 43:24

I while I agree on menu, I think because I’ve been rebuilding my uh Canvas uh layout pack. So I have like 200 something sections that I built for Dv4, and I didn’t want to just migrate them. I uh rebuilt them uh from scratch. And they did include pricing in various forms. Um and I think now with all these new structures that we can use, mainly the module groups, it’s like super easy to just build out your pricing uh pages just by grouping modules together. You can you have your icons. list for things that are included. You can use regular button inside just I’m not so sure if that would be something I would uh you know uh need um rather than just build it myself uh quickly with the different yeah because I’m using the actual module and I just case that’s just top of mind yeah it’s just top of mind just much easier to build it from scratch with just you know text modules or or release or uh and buttons, headings uh and grouping things together for for the background.

Josh Hall 44:33

But that’s where I’m a little delayed. Like it is a little more tricky for me right now just because I haven’t I I kept up with Divi5 religiously in the beginning and I was obviously like a super early adopter. But I got to the point where like my focus is just much more on coaching and community building inside of pro that I just felt like I couldn’t it’s like a full-time job trying to because I’m in it.

Ania Romańska 44:56

It’s really really a lot uh like all the content they put up but all the new features or like if you want to properly like know all the little quirks about every new new thing that comes out, it’s like you have to spend a lot of time on it. So definitely I don’t blame you because that you may not know everything there is to know just yet. But when when thinking about wish list I think I am kind of in the with the theme fix the bugs first before shipping new features. I think um it would be a good idea for you know having one of maybe like lead developers on Nix team and ask them okay now take three days and build a website from scratch like using the most efficient way you can think of like you know just do all the things because it’s one thing to test different features individually if you’re looking just at one thing is it working? Yes it’s working then let’s move on but I think that may um you know surface help surface out some uh like friction points for for your workflow and there are some things that uh can work uh better like workflow uh improvements that are hard to notice otherwise if you’re just focusing on on one thing so I think backfixes as a priority and then maybe like um more granular control uh over presets like presets management I mentioned that you can modify your default presets which for me is what I would want obviously like I want my headings to look good without me clicking one additional thing. I’m adding uh you know a text module I want it to be styled the the way I predefined it. So the the idea of default presets is wonderful but there is no uh way to right now to to see which ones were edited and uh watching um you know students going through the the course content and just building with Dv5 specifically with default presets there is always like this uncertainty uh I think the nicer nicer we already have like preset manager a nicer improved version where maybe we could um find and replace presets globally across uh website variables uh same so just like you know putting more focus on features that are already there that would be my uh my wish for ET uh theme. So no specific modules maybe like a Gutenberg integration that so that we can combine sometimes uh you know enabling the builder is not um always the best choice for different content types. So having a nicer integration between what’s happening in Gutenberg and with our DV uh layouts would be also great. So yeah.

Josh Hall 48:00

Well it’s a good challenge to like in the case of my frustrations with like the pricing module just to get better with the module groups and just I’m sure like once you like it sounds like a lot of extra work which would be initially but once you get that dialed in that could be replicated across any site in way easier.

Ania Romańska 48:18

And it’s not so like just really few clicks. I I don’t think it’s going to take you more than trying to style the pricing table module on its own. I think it’s going to be much quicker because it’s just okay this is the container I want this padding here. You have like clearer understanding of the structure if you work with separate uh pieces of you know what’s what what which you’re putting inside while the entire module you have all these design controls but is it like affecting this or that we don’t have the little you know the pencil icon next to the things yet that’ll take you to the correct editing phase like the we had in Dv4. I’m I’m pretty sure it’s coming but it’s not there yet. So it’s kind of with these bigger small bigger modules it’s kind of maybe confusing to find the thing that you want to edit. While if you’re recreating it from scratch with tiny pieces, it’s just much nicer and manageable and easier to control. So definitely less work I would say than more.

What’s Next Rebuilds Products Momentum

Josh Hall 49:24

All right I’m sold I’m sold on you got me all right sold I will definitely give that a go here okay yeah because WebResignerpro.com is a year old now uh wow yeah I launched it in D5 in August of 25 so it’s a year old now um yeah time to uh and I was using it predating that so definitely time to do some tweaking um what are you excited about? This let’s let’s talk about what’s ahead now you have I I feel like for you Anya I feel like you made it through the worst of it you made it through the valley of the changes and the frustration especially as an educator of like God do I know this feeling well of recording a video and then as soon as you record it it’s out of date because new things are added. So I feel like I feel like you’re past the worst of it but uh I’m really excited about what you’re up to in the near future just because again I mean I’m I’m only going personally so far with teaching on Divi now. My focus is much more on the business side of things and coaching. But I obviously use Divi and if somebody is coming into WordPress I still recommend Divi. I mean if they use Elementor and love it awesome. If you use breakdance or etch and you love it awesome but at the same time I I still have so much trust in Nick and the team that’s also a big difference from a lot of other builders that I don’t know what the leadership looks like. That is one thing you mentioned oxygen like I was really intrigued by breakdance and I was really I was like you know not considering jumping ship but I was like man I because I have a couple friends who use it and I’m like they they rave about it and I was like it looks like it’s a a lot easier quite frankly but I think it was the same team that everything happened with oxygen.

Ania Romańska 51:03

I think they like they uh skipped uh working on oxygen and moved on to the new thing so that was kind of weird I think like I’m not sure you know I don’t follow that very but I think that’s the that’s what happened. So um you know there isn’t enough time to test all of them right I think the price to value is still like unmatched like lifetime access unlimited size like who does that like this is rare in terms of software these days so even that is the uh super advantage to DD and they’ve been delivering uh years and years so I have my full trust in elegant themes uh as well definitely but you asked what I’m excited about so yes while uh recording and re-recording lessons may not be my favorite thing to do uh I enjoy you know the Q ⁇ A session of how I’m supporting everyday little struggles you know all the CSS puzzles or why this isn’t working um that’s what I do uh on a weekly basis but I am rebuilding my DVLover website it’s been 10 years since uh I started it had like one redesign along the way a few years in so still quite a few years back um and I am I decided not to like migrate it but just building from scratch and then migrate all the data but from the design aspect starting fresh super super excited like I can’t I I wanted to be like quick and efficient move on to the next thing that I have planned but it’s been so fun trying to oh let’s do this and let’s do that and it’s just you know a joy to um to work with really to have all the ideas and make it happen finding new ways to uh to you know arrange content which is like super easy with CSS grid so yes definitely that’s my happy place just playing uh with with all the Divi has to offer once I finish uh DVLover website I already rebuilt it uh canvas I’m renaming it because of the now canvas functionality in Divi my new layout pack is going to be named base layout pack but I’m also uh looking forward to rebuild my child themes um I think now Divi5 is like in this pretty stable uh condition uh I didn’t want to do it too soon just not to you know having to redo it um in months time so I think uh it’s a good moment so I’m also looking forward to rebuilding uh these uh child themes because I didn’t want to just migrate them they would still use uh everything Dv4 was using not taking advantage of the new layout structures, new design system so yes starting fresh um excited for for you know having it live I guess and extending with new ones because that was the you know that’s what was why I had to pause uh developing or just creating new new products or templates uh which is again my happy place um I had to pause waiting for things to settle and so super excited to jump back in fill my new store with new products and you know keep supporting uh DV web designers out there.

Josh Hall 54:34

Well I’m excited that you’re excited because again I’m really kind of uh leaning on you to to help a lot of the folks in my ecosystem who are getting further into Divi5. I plan on maybe doing like a master tutorial uh which will be a little more like beginner style um but I’m only gonna go so far so it’s really exciting to be able to to have to see that you’re just like really going headfirst into this and super timely because you have a is it what’s the what’s the upcoming workshop that you’re doing at the time of releasing this it’s it’s it’s coming up here soon.

Live Divi5 Design System Workshop Breakdown

Josh Hall 55:07

Tell us about the the free the the workshop that you’re doing.

Ania Romańska 55:11

The workshop is for building a design system. So I have that mini course that takes you through the entire process step by step uh but I already did that uh back in July I decided to do it live with uh with everyone not just showing what needs to be done but we are taking the time to actually build that during the workshop it’s three days uh starting with building the foundation global variables setting up um initial page layout then uh on the day two setting up presets understanding how it all connects and the third date is just um creating like that export file and I’m showing how we can then import it uh using as a starting point uh for the new project so three days three focus sessions two hours each I think because initially the first version was like 90 minutes that was not very realistic so I’m smarter now I know to schedule a bit longer uh but the feedback from the first uh edition was like so great uh so I’m happy to spend the time on Zoom with everyone just building their systems live together so that’s uh what uh I would love to invite everyone to join me for for the workshop first week of uh September like Monday first Monday so it’s going to be 7th of September uh but yes three days and then you end up with like a solid start and template but mainly just a very good understanding of all the pieces that belong into the design system. It’s not going to be fully yours yet I guess this is something that evolves with how we work with DV but definitely a solid uh understanding and great starting point for sure for anyone who wants to start using DV, you know, the right way or just you know the the nice way I guess.

Josh Hall 57:08

So the time of the release in this it’s going to be next week September 7th through the 9th that’s a Monday Tuesday and Wednesday joshhall.co slash workshop will be my link to to get you over there to check that out is that what’s the investment on that workshop is it a free one 97 euros yep yeah a steal of a deal for the amount of support you’ll get and oh my gosh three I mean like I’m really gonna clear some time on this just because I need to I need to like create a better design system for OpenCenter Pro.com. So again like I’m gonna be right there with everybody learning from you on you on this one. I’m freaking pumped. Especially now that I feel like you’ve had a year to refine you know and and learn and really dig into Divi5.

Ania Romańska 57:49

Like I’m so excited I feel like it’s gonna be at a whole other level I know you ran I think a similar one last year around this time right um this yeah yeah yeah it was uh yeah a few months ago actually yeah the the course itself because with the uh workshop you also get access to the mini course so you like you don’t need to be there live with me you can then uh either watch the recording or go through like a proper seven step smaller bite size lesson um you know process that goes through the the same thing. So yes that was released in September last year. Sorry in December so just end of last year almost a year ago already re-recorded once just to keep it fresh and updated.

Josh Hall 58:31

So yeah but and on the workshop we’ll be building with the current DD version so definitely all the latest um uh approaches uh that that I would recommend uh that will be covered oh I’m so here for it Anya yeah gosh I mean yeah for that uh I mean you always overdeliver so I can for anyone who you know at this point in the conversation if you don’t uh trust Anya um I think you do like she’s just the best for a freaking 90 seven so what’s that in USD one 113 113 for the three day a three day intensive workshop and you can walk away with a system that I mean it’s fair to say you could literally build well unlimited sites that is going to save you so much site. Oh yeah it’s just this is it’s too good of a deal to learn from Anya on this one I’m I’m so excited to to see what what you have the tricks that you have up your sleeve that I’m not thinking about or not even aware of that Divi can do. So again joshhell.co slash workshop it is the what’s the official title? Is it the Divi Design System Workshop?

Ania Romańska 59:34

Yeah yeah Divi Design System Workshop that would be the title I hope I’m not so did we just tell all the AI bots to run it.

Josh Hall 59:47

That sounds five I was right putting the final tweaks on it leading up to it. So yeah oh my gosh Anya I’m so pumped for you and again um you know I wanted to have this conversation to really dig into your journey with Divi and then what’s ahead with Divi but also it’s it’s cool to meet and talk to somebody who is stuck with it just like I have because there have been a lot of people that jump ship but I don’t know I think a lot of people over the next couple years may look back and think dang I wish I would have would have wished I just would have stuck through the valley with some of the upgrades and uh new additions of Divi5 because I’m definitely I think the future is very bright especially in a world where there’s going to continue to be a lot of AI slop and no design systems whatsoever and things that are you know AI has the quality works is what what will matter for sure like being unique and just yeah deliver something solid so Divi5 I think it’s a great base for that for sure.

Closing Patience Pays And Next Steps

Josh Hall 1:00:40

Yeah gosh I totally agree. All right guys well again joshhall.co slash workshop September 7th through the 9th I can’t recommend enough. I will be there with everyone learning from you Anya so thank you so much for your time and for yeah just sharing your expertise and I’ll see you at the workshop.

Ania Romańska 1:00:55

I can’t wait uh to see what you do with this next chapter of Divi as as Divi lover heads into uh Divi5 lands so much yes I hope to see you there as well and thank thanks for having me it’s been so much fun I was so nervous as you know with you know English not being my first language so it’s always uh stressful but you made it so so fun so thank you so much oh my gosh I mean English is the only language I know and I’m still working on it so I can only imagine thanks Anya so again my friends Anya is hosting the Divi5 Design System workshop three days live QA with her hands on guided support to help you master creating a Divi design system.

Josh Hall 1:01:42

I will be right there alongside you learning with Anya in this process to help my Divi5 game as well. Go to joshhall.co slash workshop and use code josh hall at checkout to get 30% off. It’s only 67 bucks with my discount it is an absolute steal of a deal. The ROI on that for you is going to be absolutely crazy for years to come literally after learning from Anya with how to build a Divi design system and pick up a whole lot of bonuses and extra it’s a crazy deal. So go jump in Joshall.co slash workshop coupon code JoshHall to get it for 30% off. And the show notes for this one JoshHall.co slash439 big thanks to Anya for giving this generous discount to all of you who are watching or listening to this and I just really can’t recommend Anya enough. She is the best in the business so I see you there. If you’re ready to learn more about Divi5 cheers my friends