We’ve all heard the “big 3” of sales…i.e. “Know, Like, Trust” but what does it take for clients to truly feel all 3 with you in sales, discovery and prospecting parts of the process?

My guest in this podcast episode, Karen Laos who’s by all means a guide to better communication professionally, shares her insight having coached hundreds of executives, authorities, industry leaders and high performing professionals.

Whether it’s a sales call, a zoom meeting with a potential lead or discovery call, these lessons can be applied to the way you sell TODAY so I can’t wait to hear your takeaways.

P.S. Karen is actually a client of one of my awesome web design students, Lauren of orangemosscreative.com. Be sure to stay to the end of the episode to hear from Karen’s perspective how Lauren built trust, likability and authority to land her as a top tier client!

In this episode:

00:00 – Introduction
02:03 – Greeting to Karen
05:24 – Marketing yourself
07:30 – First tip
12:33 – Communication concepts
18:34 – Timeframes
23:12 – Listen don’t pitch
29:12 – Create clarity
31:40 – Curse of knowledge
33:48 – Trust factor importance
38:47 – Have warmth
45:04 – Listen to yourself
48:40 – Don’t fill the air
51:28 – Being credible
55:54 – Meet the right person
58:28 – Final thought

Free PDF for Listeners Called – Nine Words to Avoid and What to Say Instead

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Episode #243 Full Transcription

[00:00:00] Josh: What up web design gangsters welcome in episode 243. I’m really excited for you in this episode to hear a conversation I had with Karen Laos, who is a confidence and communication expert in the corporate world.

[00:00:14] Josh: But as you’ll find well what she teaches and the insight she has translates perfectly to the world of online entrepreneurship. What’s really interesting about Karen, aside from the absolute gold that she shared in this interview is that she is actually a client of one of my web design students. That’s how we got connected.

[00:00:32] Josh: I want to really encourage you to listen to the end of this episode because she shares some interesting insight on why she hired Lauren, my student, uh, when she actually didn’t even want or think she needed a website. So I would, uh, recommend listening to the end to. Gain some insight from that. But I’m so excited to bring Karen on here in this episode to talk about how to just communicate better and build trust, likability, and authority while being yourself and showing up as you, which is, I think, one of the hardest things to do nowadays, especially if you’re new to getting on camera or putting yourself out there in your marketing.

[00:01:04] Josh: So I, I’m really excited to hear what, uh, takeaways you get from this episode. Be sure to leave us a comment@joshhall.co slash 2 43. If you would. I’d love to hear from you. And one thing I did wanna mention before we dive into this episode, I pulled a rookie mistake. I had the wrong microphone selected for a good portion, at least the beginning of this interview.

[00:01:25] Josh: I essentially, I have two microphones in my office. I have, um, Big Bertha, which hangs right in front of my face that you see if you follow me on social. I also have a shotgun mic that sits on side of my computer. Um, and I think I had both of them on, so it sounds kind of weird in the beginning, but I hope, uh, I hope it’s okay.

[00:01:43] Josh: I appreciate your patience with that. And without further ado, someone who sounds way better than I do in the beginning of this interview. Here’s Karen. We’re gonna talk, building trust, likability authority, and doing it as you in your business. So super excited. Let’s dive in.

[00:02:03] Josh: Karen, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for taking some time to chat today. I’m so excited to pick your brain about. A topic of what we just talked about before went live is a, uh, challenge for web designers building trust, credibility, confidence. So thank you so much for taking some time to chat today.

[00:02:19] Karen: Yes, you’re welcome. I’m excited to dive in.

[00:02:22] Josh: And you are, I, I love asking entrepreneurs this question because generally online entrepreneurs, whether it’s coaches or service providers, we do a lot of different things. So I would love to hear from you, when somebody asks you, Karen, what do you do? The inevitable question, they don’t know you what do you, what do you tell them? ?

[00:02:40] Karen: I usually start with something like, you know how women often hold back from sharing their ideas because they doubt themselves? Well, you can probably then relate to my typical client, and I am a keynote speaker. That solves the main problem of helping women to stop missing opportunities and start speaking up.

[00:02:59] Karen: And I do that through their presence, how they come across, whether it’s on a stage or in a meeting, and their body language and their voice. And also in their message. So that’s usually what I say. Now, that’s my textbook version. , I think it comes out differently every time, but I do love my publicist, gave me some great coaching, and I love this of the fact that I truly am a confidence cultivator and a communication expert.

[00:03:27] Karen: So if somebody’s saying like, well, what are you, ? Like, what’s your title? Those are the two things that I say for.

[00:03:35] Josh: Gotcha. And I’m sure it depends on the room you’re in, right?

[00:03:37] Karen: Yes. I was gonna say, cause I do work a lot with men. Yeah. And so it is sort of funny, you know, we we’re think, speaking of niches or niches, however you wanna put that. And that’s one of my most, the ro most recent podcasts that I listen to of yours. And this whole idea of what, what do you actually say when you’re in the room? How do you make it generic? And I think it’s so interesting what I’ve learned when I do speak related to women, I often have men say, well, do you work with men too?

[00:04:05] Karen: Like, would you work with me? And I, I love that distinction, but you’re absolutely right. So it might be, I work with executive leaders or you know, most of the time I’m speaking on stages, which is true. I do more speaking than coaching nowadays for. It’s

[00:04:20] Josh: funny you mentioned both of those topics. Nicheing in general because Nitching is is a hot topic and I think a lot of online business, but particularly for web designers because the more focused you can get with your ideal client, generally you’re gonna get faster results.

[00:04:34] Josh: But nicheing by gender is interesting too. I actually, I haven’t recorded it yet at the time of talking to you, but it’ll be released by the time this comes out on some of my thoughts as to why I actually don’t recommend nicheing by gender and why I’ve seen a lot of entrepreneurs, female entrepreneurs attract mainly female entrepreneurs just by messaging and copy and design and those kind of things.

[00:04:56] Josh: So I was kind of curious if you would take on men if they wanted to work with you. Cuz I have to admit as a man like this is, this problem is not just for the women. Like guys struggle with confidence too, especially, right? I think it’s probably. as a human. When you’re not super experienced in an industry, you feel imposter syndrome and you feel like it’s tough to get confidence when you’re learning and when you’re early on.

[00:05:22] Josh: Is that kind of what you’ve seen by working with all the people you’ve

[00:05:24] Karen: worked with? Yes, absolutely. And I, I work with plenty of men too as well, particularly executives. When I think about things like presenting in the boardroom for example, or even entrepreneurs starting a business. And in fact it’s funny cuz when we were talking before we started recording, it made me think about the power of having a discovery call where you’re really focused on the audience.

[00:05:49] Karen: And I’m amazed cuz I was, I was reminded of a discovery call that I had not that long ago that was so bad when I was on the potential client side and it was so bad I decided to do an entire podcast on it and break it down. Interesting. And I think to your point that we talked about, or, and you alluded to already, is that, you know, you get well, whether you’re a web designer or in my case, when I started out being a coach, I came from an HR background.

[00:06:20] Karen: So I left my job to focus on coaching primarily at that, again, at that time or career coaching and thinking that, oh, I’m a good coach. So I didn’t really think about the fact that I had to market myself. And there’s so many simple concepts that we can use to build that trust and to build that credibility. But a lot of us don’t think about it. We’re not intentional about it. So that’s, that’s the thing that I help people

[00:06:44] Josh: with. Well, and I would love to dig into that call that made you feel like this whatever service provider or agency or whatever was not a good fit. Because I feel like, and I’ve seen this play out in my journey early on in a lot of designers in particular where.

[00:06:59] Josh: They don’t really listen enough in a discovery call, and it’s usually about them. And if you, anyone wants to know the surefire way to lose clients and not get anyone through the door, it’s to just talk about you and not listen to the people who wanna work with you. Uh, so what, in that case, what were the things that made that discovery call you know, what, what turned that upside down for you? What were the things that, like what’s the what not

[00:07:22] Karen: to do from that call? Yeah, let’s, I, I love this because I think this is really relevant for, for anybody that is also in, in any business situation. So the first thing that happened, pretty much the theme of the entire call was exactly what you said.

[00:07:37] Karen: It was all about her. And I also want to acknowledge that a lot of us are nervous on these calls. We’re so wanting to get the business that I think that there’s this inherent humanity quality that we all have, that we’re trying to prove ourselves. And if we think about this related to confidence, it’s that, okay, am I gonna be good enough?

[00:07:58] Karen: Am I gonna say enough? Am I, if I just show them how much I’ve done, then they’re gonna wanna hire me. . And it’s fascinating to me that people really mostly wanna know, do you care about their needs? Do they feel seen and heard and known? And can you actually help them with the skill that you have that you’re coming to them with?

[00:08:20] Karen: So those are the things that definitely was the theme. But let’s break it down to specifics. I had my chief of staff on the call with me and the first thing that surprised me, I knew the person that was so, I had already had the relationship a little bit, if you wanna call it a relationship. It was more networking scenario and thought, oh yeah, let’s hop on a call.

[00:08:44] Karen: That sounds great. Gotcha. And so the first thing that surprised me is that there was no acknowledgement that my chief of staff was there. And I thought, well, this is weird. So I stepped in and said, Hey, before we continue , cuz she, she kind of went straight into her pitch. And I thought, is this really happening?

[00:09:05] Karen: Especially because I had an impression of her that surprised me that she would be like this. So then I stopped and I said, help. Look, hey, before we continue, let me introduce , my chief of staff here to you. So, so you know who she is and I’d love to have her get an idea of who you are as well, because it’s these little things that I see a lot on calls in regular meetings as well, where we don’t include the people that are there or we make an assumption.

[00:09:32] Karen: And I, I’m thinking of a, a whole other scenario where I had to interject and introduce myself. And it’s how do you find the best way also to interject with grace, but also confidence to make sure that people know that, you know, you were, you’re actually there. And in this case, I felt protect. And also wanted to make sure, hey, there’s somebody else in the room here with us.

[00:09:52] Karen: Sure. And then the other thing is that she went straight into her pitch, such that, you know, to me, here’s what I would recommend everybody do. You can get a lot out of the way and save a lot of time if you simply start with this one question. And that is, what would you most like out of this phone call?

[00:10:14] Karen: And I feel like that has steered conversations in a much more productive way than wondering and assuming and thinking, okay, I have to give my pitch. I have to give my pitch if we just simply start with a question or how could I best serve you during this call? Or what are you most hoping to get out of our time together today? But simple questions like that. So I’ll, I’ll pause there and see what thoughts you.

[00:10:38] Josh: Well, my thoughts are first off that you, uh, walk the talk because before we repress record, you asked me what would best serve your audience? A very. Similar question to like, let’s make sure that, you know, we have a theme on this topic.

[00:10:54] Josh: I’m sure you and I could go several different directions, but we have an overarching theme and you asked about my customer type and how this hour or so we’re gonna spend together is gonna help them. So it’s, I just wanted to say that’s exactly what you did and that helped me as well. And hopefully it gave you some clarity because you got me thinking like, what is the biggest challenge in this regard?

[00:11:13] Josh: And it does give us a solid framework to, to have a successful chat and in a sales call or discovery call. My goodness, that’s a beautiful way to phrase it, because there should be a successful end that you get to Yes. In a discovery call and yeah, there’s like no. If neither parties know exactly where to get to, it’s just, it’s probably not gonna go well.

[00:11:34] Josh: Or building trust and credibility is gonna be that much harder. Or, or you gonna feel pressured to just do the do the sales pitch, which, yes. One thing, my quick thoughts on this are, one thing I’ve noticed as an entrepreneur now of 12 years is that the more experienced, established. Business owners, entrepreneurs, freelancers, whatever, tend to listen during sales and discovery calls way more than they ever pitch themselves.

[00:12:00] Josh: In fact, they barely ever, quote unquote, pitch themselves. If so, it’s at the very end and it’s targeted to the, the challenges the person already laid out. So it’s a great reminder no matter where everyone’s listening in your journey to listen a lot and have that clarity. So yeah, that’s, that’s my initial thoughts based off of that segment because it’s a great reminder and it’s, I mean, I, I feel like that’s the solution to everything. Discovery call, sales call. Yeah. Conflict resolution. I imagine that’s all there. Totally.

[00:12:28] Karen: It really is. I mean, the thing is, these concepts around communication are, are not complicated. They’re so simple, and yet they are so hard for many of us to execute. And exactly what you said. If, if we simply, and I love the reflection on your 12 years, and I do see that a lot too, of people that have been in the industry or just simply, yeah.

[00:12:53] Karen: Been entrepreneurs longer. We, we’ve been around for the ride enough to know that it really isn’t about us. And it can be counterintuitive for, for some to go, well wait, don’t I have to say more about me? And so if we go back to this same call, I was fascinated because what, what’s interesting of what, what I noticed, cuz I was very aware of my reaction in my inside to what was happening.

[00:13:21] Karen: The more she pitched, the more I thought, oh my gosh, when can this be over? Mm. And I was actually DMing my chief of staff saying, let’s end this call as soon as possible, but not be rude about it, . And it was fascinating. I don’t like that I did that, but that’s exactly what was on my mind because I thought if she can’t listen during a sales call when we’re not even clients yet, what in the world would it be like in on the other side?

[00:13:51] Karen: Gray Point. So the other thing, as she was pitching, I kept thinking, oh my gosh, I, I, she’s not getting it. She thinks she knows what we want. We don’t want that. And I finally had to interrupt and say, Hey, I wanna pivot a little bit here and share what we need. I mean, then I had to, as a potential client, take ownership of that.

[00:14:14] Karen: And thankfully, I’ve been around enough that I don’t let people hijack me at least most of the time. I’m certainly not perfect, but I remember thinking, I have to do something here. I have to interrupt. And that’s, that’s what I ended up doing. And then, you know, the other thing that really gets my goat is when people don’t respect your time, or at least my interpretation of that.

[00:14:34] Karen: Yes. Again, let’s, let’s be honest, it’s my perception, but we had 30 minutes set aside at 37 minutes. She was still in the middle with no end in sight. And so my suggestion for anybody listening is if you notice that you’re going over time, Stop and say something, Hey, can, can I have you for five more minutes?

[00:14:57] Karen: I wanna respect your time. I know that we said 30 minutes. I’ve got a couple more things to say. But the sad part is what happened is she wasted the bulk of that phone call talking about herself. And then we had, I really had so much more that I wanted to say that we needed. And so she missed an opportunity to be able to listen because then I finally, at quarter to the hour, 45 minutes in, I said, Hey, I’m so sorry, but I’m gonna have to go.

[00:15:22] Karen: Like I just cut it off and I said, we’re gonna, if you two wanna continue, fine, but I need to wrap up here and we’ll follow up with an email. Wow.

[00:15:31] Josh: Well, what a perfect case study of what not to do. Yes. And I’m sure every, so I’m sure there’s two parts to this. If, if everyone else is like me, it’s like you, you remember some of the meetings that you’ve been in that are like this and it’s given you ptsd, like flashback moments,

[00:15:46] Josh: And you also probably remember like, oh, I did this. Yep. Yes. I totally remember when a client was like, okay, thanks so much Josh. I gotta go. And you’re like, oh, shoot. That was me. Um, it, uh, I just had vivid, uh, our, had a vivid remembrance of the first time my wife and I bought a house in our, um, our loan, our, uh, loan meeting, like our, uh, financing meeting.

[00:16:09] Josh: And it should have been 40 minutes tops. It was an hour and 45 minutes of this guy who was in my networking group who I kind of similar. I was like, you know, he is kind of annoying in the networking group, but I’m really loyal to people in this group, so we’ll give him a shot. And it was so terrible and I literally did the same thing.

[00:16:28] Josh: I don’t get quickly angry too much, but I literally had to be like, all right, okay, okay, okay. What do we need to do to do this? After like an hour and 25 minutes of him just talking about himself. Wow. So great reminder. To listen well and then have that scheduled hour and, and that success at the end, the light at the end of the tunnel.

[00:16:46] Josh: Cause I feel like when it comes to confidence and all credibility, I mean trust in particular, the more you listen, like people will share their challenges and share Yes. What they wanna get to. And then they feel like they’re having the best conversation ever. Right. Like, you actually don’t need, right.

[00:17:01] Josh: Like, you don’t need to talk that much. You can just let somebody share their heart and share their challenges. And then at the end you may have said three things and they’ll be like, oh, it was so good talking with Josh when it was like 97% them .

[00:17:12] Karen: I know there’s a, there’s a quote that Dale Carnegie said many years ago about being, or I, I read it somewhere, I heard it third hand, but the, he was at a party and a woman talked the entire time to him and then said, oh, why Dale? You’re such a brilliant conversationalist.

[00:17:32] Josh: Yeah, it, it’s true there. Um, I’m not sure if you watched the Office, but there’s a scene in there where it’s, yeah. So when Jim, at one point can’t talk and then he is talking with Kelly and then she’s like, oh, we’re just having the best conversation. Same thing. So, but honestly, a really, really good point when it comes to, like, personally, I think that alleviates a lot of the stress and anxiety when you just listen and yes, you don’t need to sell.

[00:17:55] Josh: I’m, gosh, I’m so glad we’re talking about this, because I think this is one of the most important things now that we’re into 2023 now too. It’s like sales is different. The pitch is dead. I mean, maybe there’s a time to pitch when needed and if it’s, if it’s targeted to a service or a result, but more often than not, What I’ve seen and, and what I’ve learned is to just be genuine and just really care about helping somebody.

[00:18:19] Josh: And that really stems from just listening. Yes. And then at the end, with time allotted, you know, with 15 minutes left, you can share how you’re gonna help, like give it 45 to the client, 15 to you. Do you have a metric like that that you recommend percentage wise or anything? Well, my discovery

[00:18:34] Karen: calls are typically 30 minutes. So just to be full, full disclosure of timeframes, and I don’t necessarily have a metric, but to me it’s continuing to ask a question. And this is actually the same in a conflict scenario, asking a question to be curious and then. Letting them respond. And even things like, would you like to hear more about my services?

[00:18:57] Karen: Or, you know, something like, because maybe they at that point, they might not. Good point. I’ve also seen situations where someone, you know, and I can think of myself on the receiving end going, I wanna buy, why aren’t you telling me like, I’m ready? I’ve had to actually say, I don’t need any more pitching.

[00:19:15] Karen: I’ve , I already wanna buy from you. Now, I shouldn’t say I don’t know that I’ve been that explicit, but in my mind I’ve thought it, but I’ve said, Hey, I, I’m already ready. So tell me how, how does this work and what does this cost? Now thinking about, on the other hand, because I teach a lot around negotiation, and so, and making a direct versus a passive ask, so I also want to be really clear with everybody that it’s important to ask for the business.

[00:19:43] Karen: So that’s, for me, that is my one main metric besides listening, asking questions and not talking too long, but stopping. Hey, how does that land for you? That’s one of my favorite questions of all, where I’ll say a little bit about what I do and or my package and what, you know, how do, here are my packages, here are my services.

[00:20:04] Karen: And then, you know, how do, how do those land, which of those do you think would work best for you? And. Making sure that you’re continuing, it’s basically a, it’s like a lob of a, a tennis ball. You know, you, you throw that out there, see what they have to say, and then you ask another question. And even things like my two favorite questions.

[00:20:22] Karen: After you think that you have explored everything, things like, tell me more or anything else, is there anything else? And then asking for the business to say, and even to say, Hey, would this be a good time to talk to you, to share my fees with you and my packages? Because sometimes there’s that lull in the conversation where you feel like, Okay, we’re, we’re kind of done here.

[00:20:46] Karen: And this is where I think people, uh, entrepreneurs or business people in general, we don’t capitalize on that moment. So this also requires attunement to what’s happening in that conversation. Are you, are you aware and having that discernment and the judgment call to say, okay, I think this is a good time to say something. So would this be a good time to share my rates with you?

[00:21:09] Josh: Oh, yeah. And I love, I also love the idea, when I think about a discovery call or, or a sales pitch, if we wanna call it that. It’s like, generally you’re gonna, an ideal world, you would talk with them, get you, get the challenges, get the struggles out there, so you have some ideas on how to help, and then you’d probably immediately go to the sales part pitch of it.

[00:21:28] Josh: But just what you said there, Karen, if you interject. , do you have any other thoughts on this? That would probably segue into the sales stuff or just give them like a little more ownership of the conversation without feeling like they’re just being sold to. So I love that idea of like three quarters of the way through or later on.

[00:21:44] Josh: Like give them the opportunity to get anything else out before immediately diving into the, to the services that you offer. Yeah. Um, and, and I even giving some ownership and then taking pause when you have a long thought again, you just did a little bit ago. You, you, you said I could keep going, but I’ll stop and you asked me if I had any thoughts on that and that.

[00:22:05] Josh: As a nice, practical example of how to take a conversation to a point where you could keep going. And I’ve, I’ve had a lot of people sometimes who just keep on going and it’s like, okay, hold on, hold on. I’m like hoping they just hold on, you know, like, let me get in there a little bit. Otherwise you don’t wanna have like half an hour and one person talking and because this holo episode.

[00:22:22] Josh: Um, but that’s a great example too, and I think it can be modeled in a discovery call or a sales call where you do try to keep things fairly tight when you’re talking. Because again, I, I actually, if you saw me looking off screen a little bit ago, I’m, I’m re gonna relabel this episode cuz what we’re really diving into is how to have a good sales call or discovery call and all of that leads to trust, credibility, and confidence.

[00:22:45] Josh: So, right. I love that. I absolutely love these things that are like tactile and practical, um Right. I’m kind of curious, why do you think, it’s probably fairly obvious, but I wonder if you have any other insight with working with so many different people on probably so many different levels. Like why is, uh, the idea of like selling quick and feeling like you need to pitch? Why is that so prevalent? Like, why do we go there initially?

[00:23:11] Karen: Yeah. I, I really think it’s a societal thing, so we, we learn from other people in the past and then we learn from those people and things just continue. It’s, I think in part it’s, we feel like we have to do that. I think another part of it goes back to I feel like I have to prove myself and the way that I do that.

[00:23:28] Karen: Is by, you know, throwing up all the things that I know on you. And I do think that that stems from a lack of confidence or self-doubt. And I do think it’s a general human condition that we tend to doubt ourselves and we compare ourselves to other people. We feel like, oh, I need to be better than that person.

[00:23:47] Karen: And there’s actually some interesting research on this that I found fascinating in my work, primarily at the corporate office in at the gap many, many years back when I did a lot of leadership training. There’s a book, there’s no, no pun intended here, but the book is called The Knowing Doing Gap. And it’s two researchers out of Stanford that wrote it, called Feifer.

[00:24:08] Karen: Their names are Pfeffer and Sutton. And the culmination of, of the book essentially is that, and they, they surveyed people in organizations all over the world, and they came up with, you know, why do we know that we’re supposed to do something, but that we don’t always do it like simple things like why don’t, why don’t we know we’re supposed to floss our teeth, but we don’t.

[00:24:26] Karen: And that’s just one example. They, they weren’t talking about personal stuff, it was all business related. But the three things that rose to the surface that we as human beings above all else are most committed to is looking good, being right, and being in control. Looking good, being right and being in control.

[00:24:47] Karen: And I found that fascinating because it, number one, it helps me be really compassionate to people. Like, if somebody keeps talking, I think, you know, they’re just trying to look good right now and show how much they need to know. They’re, they know, or, you know, somebody, for example, one of the examples they gave in the book was something about skewing data.

[00:25:05] Karen: Why do we skew data when we technically should do, like, why do we omit certain things from conversations or what have you? Oh, it’s because, you know, we’re trying to look good or be in control or, or whatever it is. So I do think that that also is part of it, that as human beings, we, we always wanna look good.

[00:25:24] Karen: We’re, we’re also just generally we want to please other people and I don’t know, there’s a lot of things in this. Yeah. So we feel like, oh, well I have to say more because then they’re gonna know how great I am. So those are my initial thoughts. What do you think? Well,

[00:25:40] Josh: I was immediately thinking back to like middle school when, you know, like when somebody just won’t shut up.

[00:25:47] Josh: And then sometimes when in an earlier age you think like, wow, they’re so cool. They’re like confident in everything. And then as you get older you realize it was 100% probably a mechanism for self-doubt. And, and you see this with like narcissism on social media. Yes. Like the people who generally are, and sorry if I’m calling anyone out, but maybe you need to hear the wake up call.

[00:26:07] Josh: Like if you just keep on posting about, I should say I have a personal brand, so I do post a lot about myself, but it’s for the audience . But like, you know what I mean? Like a lot of the people who just post about everything they’re doing and how good they are and all the results they get tons of pic.

[00:26:20] Josh: Like you look at their wall and it’s all just pictures of them. Right. Um, it’s generally like compensating for, for yeah. Insecurities or self-doubt and, and those kinds of things. I, I think it’s more. Again, maybe it’s a maturity thing. Like I’ve definitely seen that, but then you see a lot of people who don’t get out of that.

[00:26:39] Josh: And I don’t mean to sound judgmental. I just, this is something I’ve noticed is you get to a point where it’s like, it’s so clear what’s going on here. Um, yes, but this bleeds into business and, and the C world, like I love that we’re talking about this because if you are not self-aware about that, or maybe if you don’t record a meeting and listen back to it, that’s, is that something you’d recommend?

[00:27:00] Josh: Record the meeting. Hundred percent. Listen back, would you buy your thing after you just like, you know, verbally, uh, you know, just spewed for like 50 minutes? It do you recommend that as well? Yes,

[00:27:11] Karen: a hundred percent. And that’s what I do with my clients. Actually. We record calls sometimes real time, because obviously if, obviously we’ve gotta be careful of confidential confidentiality.

[00:27:22] Karen: I don’t want anybody listening to this thinking that I’m listening in to other people’s calls, but when it is okay, or sometimes we will do a role play, but mostly yes, to answer your question, record yourself on these calls and for your own use, listen back. Well, and it can be

[00:27:38] Josh: helpful. Well that, and one way to get around that, and this is something I recommend my students do on a discovery call, is to let them know we’re gonna record it simply because we’re probably gonna get a lot of content out of this.

[00:27:50] Josh: Like instead of sitting down with a form and saying, what’s my biggest challenge is you may not think about what you just said casually. And that’s the actual challenge we need to, to look at. So that’s just, uh, one practical way to get around that is just say, we’re gonna record this simply because if we move forward together, we’re probably gonna get a lot out here and we don’t need to.

[00:28:09] Josh: Do the work again, we’ve already got here, so you can download the transcript and use that as copy for the website. Um, see, I, yes, that’s a great point. Just, you know, some thoughts on that. I, I’ve definitely learned as a podcaster, as much as I don’t like re-listening to episodes all the time, sometimes I do, just to hear what it’s like on the other end.

[00:28:27] Josh: And make sure I’m not talking too much or I don’t have rambling thoughts, which I’ve definitely worked on over the, the few years of doing this show. It’s like what you said earlier where you’re like, good God, I can’t wait for this call to end . My real goal as a podcaster is to make you feel like this.

[00:28:44] Josh: What quick? I’m so bummed that we have to stop talking. That is my goal. I love it as a, as an interviewer, and I honestly, it sounds funny, but that should be the goal as a service provider. Like you want them to end that meeting being like, man, I really enjoyed talking with Josh. I’m fired up. Yes, yes. About what we could do with our website and I want to hang out and get another coffee.

[00:29:01] Josh: Like that’s really the, the goal. That way. It’s not like, oh God, that hour with Karen was brutal. I am noting a drink. You know? Is it ? Yeah, exactly.

[00:29:11] Karen: Yeah. Well, and of course you want them also to feel, feel so good. Not only that they wanna buy, but to your point, they, they get, are really excited about it. And this, this just happened with me last week with a woman that I wasn’t sure, you know, what, what was gonna happen?

[00:29:25] Karen: And I’m, you know when you get those clients where you just go, oh, I’m so excited cuz I feel so confident I can help her. And she wanted clarity. She’s a C-suite woman and she says, nobody will ever give me feedback. Nobody want. Because I pretty much hold all of their fate, like their fate is in my hands.

[00:29:43] Karen: At least that’s the way they see it. And all these things. These, I think the higher up you go. In whatever role you’re in, the harder it is for people to do that, to give you feedback, to be to totally honest with you. And she said the one thing she wanted from the call was clarity. And then afterwards she said, I got clarity. Not only did I get clarity, now she’s sending me all these emails, and so we’re gonna start working together in January. But it was really, really exciting too. To have that

[00:30:09] Josh: happen. And that may be different in the corporate world. I was just thinking if you have a YouTube channel or a podcast, you’re going to get some brutal feedback. That’s true. The only, only plenty of transparency, feedback, uh, not necessarily constructive criticism that comes through the door. So I’ve, I’ve had to grow a thick skin on that and I don’t even have a polarizing brand or anything. Uh, so yeah, but it

[00:30:30] Karen: is a good point. That’s a good point. And thank you for bringing that up, Josh, cuz this is a great example of who’s primarily listening to this.

[00:30:36] Karen: So .

[00:30:37] Josh: Yeah. No, but I mean, what is interesting is I have seen this with like groups of colleagues to where like, I’m in a mastermind group with some other colleagues who are online entrepreneurs and I’ve got some other like kind of close-knit groups of entrepreneur friends. And you do get to a point where it’s like, I feel like I should say something, but you know, like depending on the relationship, maybe I’ll hold back.

[00:30:59] Josh: But tho those kind of things are really important. I dare say it’s more important to have the people who will tell you like it is, or at least give you their honest thoughts on something to make cuz it’s so easy to lose touch right on where you are. No matter if you’re in a corporate position or if you’re a business owner who’s been doing it for a while or whatever.

[00:31:18] Josh: It’s like you, you can very easily lose touch with. You know, with communication and where your clients are at, I mean, this is really common with, with web designers to where you get a little more experience and then before you know it, you’re talking at such a high level that other web designers aren’t understanding you as colleagues or clients are like, I don’t, I didn’t even understand what you said, because like, you’re too smart

[00:31:40] Karen: for sales.

[00:31:40] Karen: Yes. The curse of knowledge. Exactly. I love talking about that because Oh, it is so, so important. This is such a great example of knowing your audience because when we have that curse of knowledge, you know, the more expert we become, the harder it is to see things through the lens of our listener and thinking about just some of the more obvious things like buzzwords and jargon and how easy it is to do that.

[00:32:02] Karen: And I, I’ve, we all have it. And this is, this goes back to that emotional intelligence component and that, that attunement of what, who our audience is, how much do they know and being aware that, are we, are we meeting them where they’re at because. If we go back to where we started with the trust and credibility component, we have to be relatable.

[00:32:24] Karen: If we’re not relatable, people aren’t gonna trust us as much. And if they feel like, you know, we’re too far along or advanced for them, then they’re, they’re not gonna feel like they even trust themselves in the whole thing.

[00:32:37] Josh: Great point. Yeah. I remember one of the, one of the key things I learned early on was to, when I was talking to potential clients about website stuff, be like, oh my gosh, I remember when I got into it thinking this was, you know, crazy or, or just those ki kind of buzz buzzwords.

[00:32:52] Josh: And then they’re like, oh yeah, Josh was where I was just a few years ago. And it does add that like relatable factor, which is outside of like, Hey, we like the same sports team, or we like the same sport, right? Like there’s, there’s kind of different relatable there. It’s like, oh, we might be like-minded or similar in nature, but business-wise, mindset-wise, are we, you know, relatable there.

[00:33:12] Josh: I actually, I’m so glad you mentioned that cause I wanted to ask you about likability. I’ve experienced that being likable. Just working with somebody really helped me, especially early on when I wasn’t that great, quite frankly, of a web designer. It was like, I could do an okay website, but I got a lot of them because I, I tried to be likable and I really, really cared.

[00:33:36] Josh: I honestly cared probably more than an expert developer would’ve cared. Yeah. What are your thoughts on how important likability are, especially now in the landscape of online business and. I guess any business.

[00:33:48] Karen: Yeah, absolutely. It’s so important because it’s that, you know, they talk a lot or, and I say they, I just mean, you know, in the world you hear a lot about the no, like and trust factor.

[00:33:59] Karen: And I do think that that likability is key. And I, I’d say that that has served me really well. Similar to you earlier on. People just seem to like me. So I thought, okay, it was a good thing. I’m faking it most of the time, . But, but the, as far as the expertise goes in the beginning, yeah. But, uh, no, that’s not a hundred percent true.

[00:34:19] Karen: But I, I’ve always been pretty confident on the outside, but not always on the inside. But I do think that likability component is something that we can’t overlook and a lot of us don’t recognize the fact that we might be really likable people, but we don’t come across as likable. Hmm. And so I wanna make that distinction because this is what I do a lot in my work with people primarily.

[00:34:43] Karen: I do most of mine on video, so I record them well, video as well as audio. But helping them hear and see how they’re coming across. And I’ll, I’ll give you one of the best examples that still rings true to me today. I was, this was back when I was doing more in-person group trainings, and there was a guy that came in and I shook his hand and my immediate thought was, Ugh, I have to be with this guy all day.

[00:35:08] Karen: That quick, this flat facial expression, you know, noth no real energy in his voice, but it was, it was mostly his face. And this was one of those trainings where I recorded people, so they had a minute to introduce themselves, and then we watched it back. And when we watched it back, he goes, oh my gosh, I looked so rude and intimidating.

[00:35:30] Karen: Mm. And I said, I know . I said, that’s exactly what I thought of you when I saw you and you shook my hand. And he goes, but, but then we talked about the fact that he’s not like I, so the distinction I also did not make yet before I said this, is that throughout that morning, I realized he was really likable and funny.

[00:35:49] Karen: He had a great sense of humor. So that first impression was such a important one. And then the other component that I’ve noticed with him and with most people, when we are focused on our content or we’re nervous or really focused on what we’re trying to say, then we tend to get this furrowed brow or just a flat look on our face.

[00:36:11] Karen: Yes. And so remembering to have a lightness, and the aha moment for him was that he said, oh my gosh. I don’t want my team to think that I, you know, number one, not likable, that I’m unapproachable, that I’m uninviting all of these things. And it’s such a good example of how how he came across Yeah. Did not represent him.

[00:36:33] Josh: Oh, that’s so great. It’s it, and I feel this with my podcast being on video too, is I’ve looked at the interviews, I’m like, wow, I look mad. Or like bored. Like women often get called out for the resting bitch face. Yes. But men often have the resting board face. Yes. Or it’s like a, like a me. Like, but it’s not, you know, it’s just all of us.

[00:36:55] Josh: Like we just naturally you’re your face just, you know, you’re not gonna be smiling naturally. Like my daughter, my middle daughter, Annie, bless her heart, she has the most natural scowl just her just chill face will just be kind of scally. Um, so, you know, we’re gonna work on that. So we’re like, you know, just, you don’t have to scowl necessarily, but what a great reminder in sales calls.

[00:37:17] Josh: Especially. Maybe you are focused on what they’re saying and maybe you really wanna help them out. You’re like di diligently writing notes and ideas, but you might look mean or you might look bored. Right. And it’s a great reminder to like, go back, watch it. How do you feel? It’s funny you mentioned this, I just had this thought last week because I have a membership of web designers and we did a little like, uh, a little Christmas virtual hangout and just went around and talked about some wins for the year and stuff like that.

[00:37:45] Josh: And I’m gonna call her out by name because I think this is, uh, a really important thing. Michelle, who is my SEO gu. One thing I appreciate about her, and I’ll have to tell her this. P I’ll privately tell her this, she has a very kind resting presence. Like when everyone else was talking, I looked at the screen.

[00:38:04] Josh: Yeah. Unintentional that we were gonna talk about this. But I looked at the screen of like 20 or so people and everyone kind of had a resting either bitch or bored face and, but I’m trying to think of a more eloquent way to put it, but that’s just the best way to put it. Yeah. But she was kinda like, smile, like she looked, had like a resting smile.

[00:38:22] Josh: And I remember when I first met her on a video call, I was drawn to that. Like she just looked like a nice person and a likable person I would be, I’d work well with. So I say all that to say it’s a good reminder. Work on your resting thinking face in your presence. Yes. Because that does have a huge implication on all communication, particularly discovery and sales

[00:38:43] Karen: calls.

[00:38:44] Karen: Yeah, it’s huge. And there was a study that was done by Amy Cuddy about warmth and competence, and she did this study asking people, would you rather be judged first on your compete? or your warmth, and the majority of people said their confidence. Mm-hmm. , and maybe you’ve heard this before. Yeah. But how the person receiving decides if they wanna be, that you do business with them and da da da, da it’s warmth and it’s, and warmth is directly through your smile first and then your tone of

[00:39:16] Josh: voice. Oh, that’s great. And it reminds me of the classic quote, people don’t know, or people don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care.

[00:39:23] Karen: Yes, totally. I, that’s it. That’s it. That’s it’s, that’s true. All we have to do is care. It’s amazing. It’s so simple. And yet, oh gosh, we get in these traps and I’ve done it too. It’s just, uh, it’s challenging sometimes. The other thing that I wanted to talk about related to how we come across is filler words. being mindful of that, especially, I mean, , this comes up so much when you think about podcasts and when, when we don’t have the video at all.

[00:39:53] Karen: It’s nice that you’ve got video for yours, but yeah, when we don’t have the video at all, it makes it really hard to stay engaged when somebody is constantly saying, um, uh, you know, so ,

[00:40:05] Josh: we’re right. Oh yes, I’ve this one. I, I will literally not buy something if somebody says right. Too many times and, Ooh, I don’t know if you’ve seen this, it seems to be worse than the corporate world.

[00:40:18] Josh: Realtors, auctioneers. I think a lot of people I worked with, I had a networking group that was filled with mostly corporate people and they were just, All over the place. He’d be like, really? You wanna buy your house? Right? Here’s what we’ll do and these are the problems. Right. I’m like, stop saying Right. Stop it, . Cause I’m done. Like, that would drive me off the wall. I don’t know. I don’t know if you’ve seen that or if you have a passion as much as I do against, because I really

[00:40:40] Karen: hate Yeah. The Yeah, go

[00:40:41] Josh: ahead. You’re gonna hear it now. Probably left and right. It’s like Right. Isn’t in the family of filler words. I, I feel like, like, like, um, so I used to be terrible, so I’m still really bad at, you know, trying to cut out the, you knows, but those are even butt is a filler word. Uh, but that, dang it. Now I’m saying filler words like crazy. Now you’re gonna hear it . Right, right. Is my big filler word of the day to cut on because you sound, you just sound like.

[00:41:11] Josh: You know, just kind of precocious and like, as in a sales call, if you keep on saying, all right, client, you know, here’s the problem with your website, right? And they’re like, I don’t know. Is that their problem? That’s why I’m, that’s why you’re here. Exactly.

[00:41:24] Karen: So I, I have equal disdain for that word. And in fact, I was recently at a conference and I actually left the, not the conference, I left the woman speaking, I had to leave the room because she said Right.

[00:41:38] Karen: So many times. And it, it’s, it’s so unfortunate when we think about these things that we don’t often have a clue that we’re doing, which is why recording yourself and. Proactively asking other people for feedback is so important because the first thing is to record yourself. That’s the best way to see it objectively.

[00:41:58] Karen: But then having somebody else in the room and then being really proactive about what you’re asking for, because that’s another thing that I see a lot is people will say, well, I asked for feedback. Well, and what did they say? Oh, they said I did fine . Well, what if next time you say, Hey, I have a challenge.

[00:42:16] Karen: Like for me, my biggest one is, I I’m working on that all the time. And if I said to someone, Hey, when we’re on that call, can you tell me if you noticed me saying so a lot? Or afterward, Hey, did I do anything distracting from a filler word perspective I’m working on? So, but were there any new ones that came up?

[00:42:37] Karen: You know, I had a colleague once, I used to do co-facilitation a lot, and she said at the end of one day she goes, do you know that you say the reality is all the time? . I am telling you, Josh, I had no idea. And then when I started training the next day, I heard it constantly and I thought, oh my gosh, okay, gotta stop that.

[00:42:59] Karen: So it’s becoming aware of it like anything first, and then going to town to change it. That’s

[00:43:04] Josh: a great point. A lot of thoughts on this one is back all the way back in episode 1 0 4. It was one of my favorite interviews aside from this one. Of course, Karen, is I got to interview an NHL broadcaster and he said the same thing he said when he started, but he was a radio, so it was all voice.

[00:43:19] Josh: So you can’t rely on what people are seeing. It’s all voice. Yeah. He said when he started in hockey, he went from baseball to hockey. He said moves for every movement. So he’d be like, he moves the puff to the left, moves the puff back, moves the puff up, moves the puff to the right, and somebody said, do you realize, you said move like 300 times in the segment?

[00:43:38] Josh: He was like, wow. I didn’t even think about that. Didn’t recognize, it’s just you have, he had to come up with different words for ho you know, hockey. So it’s like shifts the puffs top to the left, passes it to the right. Oh, right. Great. Great way to think about just communication in sales too, if you do or if you’re prone having filler words.

[00:43:58] Josh: One thing I learned, I went through Toastmasters, I’m not sure if you’re Me too. Totally. Yeah. I recommend everyone go through Toastmaster because they literally, one of the benefits of it is you get dinged for filler words. Yes. And somebody will tally how many times you say like or so, or write, you know, and that really, really, You get a feel for how much filler words you’re saying, and I think this is important because I think it’s okay to have a little bit of filler word.

[00:44:25] Josh: Just, you’re human, you’re gonna, you know, you’re not gonna be perfect. You don’t wanna be a robot who is like speaking perfectly, and then you feel really unrelatable. Right? But going back to what we just talked about, if you say Right, 250 times in an hour, call , you’re gonna drive somebody crazy. And then the likability is just, it’s out the window.

[00:44:43] Josh: Yeah. So I love that we’re hitting on this, and I was gonna ask you about, How to do that if you’re not in a Toastmasters group, like, what are some other ways? Is it just like a trusted friend who you know is gonna give it to you straight? The recording yourself and listening back? We’ve hit on that. Any other tips for catching filler words?

[00:45:00] Josh: Unless you wanna join a Toastmasters

[00:45:02] Karen: group or something I, I do wanna reiterate the best way is the, the recording and then having someone that can listen for it, either proactively or after along with you. Because I’ve also had, I’ve worked with people where we listen back to it and they don’t even hear it at first because they’re still just, they, they can’t quite be outside of themselves.

[00:45:23] Karen: That always fascinates me. Sometimes it takes someone else in that journey with you, but what you can do is an, another tip on this is an affirmation. Like, for example, I had a guy that told me, , this was so funny. I remember this so well. Because he goes, Oh, I know what feedback you’re gonna give me already.

[00:45:44] Karen: I, I say, um, all the time and we kind of chuckled at that and I said, okay, so first of all, for all of us, we have to decide, number one, whatever we are looking at, potentially changing, is the payoff worth it? Because people will often say that to me, oh, I already know what my challenge is. Well, then my question sometimes back to them is, why haven’t you changed it then yet?

[00:46:07] Karen: Ah, and because there hasn’t been a big enough payoff for you to intentionally go to work to change it. But what we came up with him cuz he said, okay, I’ve tried the recording, I’ve tried people telling me, I need something else. So I said, well, what if, because you’re constantly saying, because he, he would actually say, I tally mark them every time while I’m on a call.

[00:46:29] Karen: I tally mark them, so I wanna stop doing that. So I said, well, you’re self sabotaging. First of all, what if instead you said, I am a person who perfectly pauses and it’s something you’ve gotta find. If we look at all the researcher on affirmations, I used to wonder, do they actually work? And I’ve now worked on them enough, myself for probably 20 some years that I’m convinced that they do work.

[00:46:55] Karen: So I mentioned that to him and he said, okay, I’ll give it a try. And truthfully, that he was a, a kind of a one-time coaching situation. So that was many years ago when I worked for another company. But, so I don’t know, follow up how he did on that. But we’ve all gotta find what works for us. And the thing that I would definitely say is that 80% of this is mindset anyway.

[00:47:19] Karen: So instead of thinking, oh, I have to stop saying, um, cuz people will actually tell. Oh, I have a post-it on my computer that says, stop saying um and I always say, well, you’re never gonna stop saying it if you’re trying to reinforce the negative pattern. That’s why I say I’m a person who perfectly pauses or my pauses are whatever it is that resonates.

[00:47:43] Karen: I like the alliteration and the perfectly pause, but remembering to focus on the behavior that you want to move toward, not the one that you’re trying to eliminate.

[00:47:53] Josh: That’s great. And my 2 cents on the filler word thing was to pause. And there’s a reason, it just dawned on me. There’s a reason it’s called a filler word.

[00:48:02] Josh: It’s cuz you’re just filling. What should be a pause or right length space. It’s not weird word. Exactly. It’s not annoying words. It’s filler words, so let it breathe. Right. . There’s power in the pause particularly. Let’s talk about sales for a second. If you just go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go.

[00:48:23] Josh: For 50 minutes during a sales call, guess what? You have not let the potential client think or digest anything. There’s so much power and like, hang on a moment. There’s a big point. Hang on it. Little bit of silence. Doesn’t need to be awkward, but I’ve learned this, like when I have a presentation or a webinar, I try to look at the moments where like, here’s a big thought.

[00:48:47] Josh: Say it. Let the slide be there and then sit on it for a second. You don’t always need to Absolutely. To keep on filling the air with, with with words. I’ve learned that as a podcaster for sure. Like there’s times to just say a thought and. You don’t need, I don’t, my editor doesn’t need to go through and chop out two seconds of, of no words because it’s supposed to be there.

[00:49:09] Josh: Right. So in communication, yes. Like, oh my gosh, I don’t even want to take us on a tangent of editing, but I, I am very against highly edited shows that do cut out everything, just because that’s not how we talk in real life. Like, yes, you wanna be relatable and get something across a real conversation with a little bit of, you know, filler words like I just did.

[00:49:32] Josh: Things like that are gonna make it relatable, but you need those pauses. I, I just, I wanna say that because I think it’s really important. Yes, yes. And I’m

[00:49:40] Karen: glad you did, because I realize that’s my curse of knowledge where I was like, oh, of course you pause .

[00:49:48] Josh: It’s true. Yeah. When you’re, so thank you

[00:49:50] Karen: for reminding me of that.

[00:49:50] Karen: Yes. I

[00:49:51] Josh: was eight years, oh, almost, almost eight years into being an online entrepreneur, having built my freelance business up to a six figure profitable range. And I did not hear anything about the pause until I joined Toastmasters. Or if I did, it just went voop and I just didn’t grab it. Somebody probably didn’t pause when they said it, they probably said it and kept on going

[00:50:16] Josh: So I realized when they said that, and it’s because I was working on filler words and I had this older gentleman who was extremely well spoken. He was kind of like the Yoda of the group. Okay. He was. I said I was, I want to get rid of the SOS in you nose. And he was like, then don’t say anything. Just pause, let it breathe.

[00:50:37] Josh: And it was like, ding the light bulb moment for me. Uh, so yeah, I know. I’m really glad we’re talking about this because all of these things culminate into a call sales meeting where you just come across so much more likable and you do build that trust and credibility and, and the things that make somebody wanna work with somebody.

[00:50:58] Josh: On that note, yeah. I, I wanna be respectful of your time here, Karen, as we get ready to wrap up, I did wanna ask you about your web designer, my student Lauren. Yes. And I’m gonna listen to this. So Yes, I wanted to give her shout out because she connected us. Yes. And before we went live, you said, I love Lauren.

[00:51:16] Josh: She’s great work. Thank you. So I wanna ask you, and we’re just gonna make her blush left and right here. What were the things that she did that made you like her and trust her and feel more credible?

[00:51:28] Karen: Yes. Well, she has a, an incredible warmth about her, first of all, and she, I love how much she listens and the spirit of that. Now, first she was referred by Jess Tro m on a website. So Lauren did Jess’s website. And so when Jess recommended her, the funny thing is, Josh, I didn’t even need a new web designer. but because Jess recommended her, I thought, well, and, and I didn’t ask for the recommendation. I saw it on a Facebook group that I’m a part of.

[00:51:59] Karen: So I clicked on that link, saw, oh my gosh, maybe I should check in with her. And it was such a good example of that I, that I didn’t even know that I really had a need. But for me it was, I knew eventually I needed to move from Squarespace to WordPress. And just hadn’t felt it was right until I talked to Lauren and I felt like, oh my gosh, I not only are her designs beautiful, which I, I already knew that because of Jess, but it goes back to the person can have the skill, but do you feel like they care?

[00:52:36] Karen: And that is truly how I felt from her from the very beginning. And then things just developed so that now she maintains my website maintenance every, every month or continually as well as does more design for me. Not just the web, but print as well. And it has been such a fabulous opportunity working with her and the fact that we’ve now built this relationship over, gosh, it’s been at least a year, if not longer.

[00:53:05] Karen: It might even be two years now. I’m kind of forgetting. , but that’s what I would say is the biggest thing. How much she cares and yeah, how customer focused she is.

[00:53:14] Josh: She really cares. That’s awesome. That’s so cool to hear because yeah, I’ve been able to coach Lauren for a couple years now at this point, and I remember, um, she connected us and I hadn’t actually looked at her site in a while and then I looked at that and yeah, the same vibe that you just got is what I get as well.

[00:53:31] Josh: And even more interesting, I think what you, which by the way, her brand is called Orange Moss Creative. If anyone wants to go check out that vibe, it’s orange moss creative.com. Highly recommend it. Great example of a freelance web designer who has a branded business that is real and personal and um, it doesn’t feel like a stiff agency that you’re gonna get turned and burned on. But yeah, and she’s

[00:53:56] Karen: really confident I wanted to say that too. she’s really, you know, that she knows her stuff because she will, she will speak back to some of the, you know, she’s makes it very easy to understand. But then I’ve dealt with her, like she did my book cover as well, and seeing how she did the design speak with Amazon, I thought, okay, I have no idea what she’s talking about, but she’s also really good at acknowledging, hey, I know this is more detail than you might need, but I’ve, I, there’s so many interactions that I’ve had with her where I know that she’s the expert and she’s got the confidence, but it’s a, it’s a quiet confidence, not a, she comes across confidence.

[00:54:33] Karen: Yeah,

[00:54:34] Josh: yeah, exactly. I love that. And really cool thing that you said there too, in regards to working with her is number one, you didn’t really feel like you were ready yet, or you didn’t really see the need quite, oh, it’s a lot of clients and I remember having this conversation all the time. It’s like, They were saying, yeah, we’d like to do that eventually, but right now, like why do it now?

[00:54:53] Josh: What? What’s the urgency? Until you see something where it’s like, Ooh, I like that. I wish my website looked like that. Or, I really like this person. I want to get going now. I don’t want them to like get busy and not be able to take me on or, or whatever the situation might be. It’s a great example of just Lauren’s likability and building that trust and credibility with her personality and with her services.

[00:55:17] Josh: I’m sure she wasn’t overly pitchy or anything like that. It made you realize, right at all, I really like you, I wanna work with you. And that literally likability for Lauren. Sold you from, from what I see on the outside of this. Yeah. So it’s just a, what a great case study after what we just talked about to like culminate into what Lauren did in this case, to make you realize you got a hot, really, you know, you were, she was a, or you were a hot lead for her because it was referred

[00:55:41] Josh: but you weren’t like, I need a website, I’ll pay anything. You were like, right. I could use a website eventually, but why now? So, yeah, I just wanted to, from my perspective, I wanted to share that because that’s a really encompassing case study of what we just talked about.

[00:55:54] Karen: It really is, and it’s such ex an example of just showing up and being yourself and perhaps the person.

[00:56:00] Karen: I, I love the idea that you don’t always know what you need until you meet the right person and then you go, okay. Cuz it’s been in the back. It had been in the back of my head for a little while and I had, it’s funny cuz I talked to a, a another person about it and just thought, uh, nah. And then with Lauren, it was just, oh my gosh, I, I can’t not do this.

[00:56:19] Karen: It was, it was such an easy Yes.

[00:56:22] Josh: Ooh, that’s great. I can’t not do this. That is all right. Ending cap thought right there. You want your clients to say just what Karen said, I can’t not do this. That is like, what a great reaction towards the end of a, of a success sales call or discovery call. In fact, I would say that would be the end goal for a web designer.

[00:56:43] Josh: You want your client to say, I can’t not do this. That is, Hmm, that’s good. Yeah. That’s amazing. Yeah. Awesome. Well, Karen, this has been great. We could keep going, but I think this is a, a good way to kind of put a cap on this part of the conversation. Again, I mean, we talked trust, credibility, confidence, but really that all results in a successful call sales call, discovery call, which I know a lot of my students struggle with.

[00:57:09] Josh: and I understand, uh, from a relatable perspective, I totally remember early on being terrified of getting on a call. But as you do it more and as you learn to talk less, listen more, and just share what you know, even if you’re not a quote unquote expert, it’s fine. Yeah. You, you can exactly, you can figure the other stuff out or a partner up and and do the things that you don’t know yet.

[00:57:28] Josh: So I, I hope this helps. I, I think it will, I think it’ll help a lot of people. I’d love to give you a chance, Karen, to. Cher where you would like everyone listening to go. Do you want people to go to your website? Do you have a resource you would like to share? Yes,

[00:57:39] Karen: I do have a resource. I have, you know, we were talking before about filler words and the word right

[00:57:44] Karen: I have a PDF called Nine Words to Avoid and What to Say Instead. And that is a freebie on my website. So I will happily direct people there. And it’s karen laos.com and that’s K A R E N L A O s.com.

[00:58:00] Josh: Awesome. And we’ll I’ll let make sure we have that PDF linked in the show notes here. Um, perfect. Yeah, I love that.

[00:58:05] Josh: That’s great. I need to listen to that again cause I feel like I’ve reverted in my filler words a little bit. I need to you to remember to pause, stop saying the ums and the uos and the sos great reminder. This is a great reminder episode. For, particularly for people who maybe are more established and you get out of the, like, learning about communication and sales and likability.

[00:58:25] Josh: Sometimes it’s good to revisit it and be challenged to make it better.

[00:58:28] Karen: Yeah. So, yeah. Well, I, I, one thing I think about too is I will listen back to myself and my voice can get draggy sometimes. in the spirit of what you just said about how we can get into these habits. And we, we don’t always, uh, we’re not always aware of it.

[00:58:43] Karen: So that’s why, for me, going back, going, okay, what do I need to work on now? Okay. I gotta have a little more oomph in my voice consistently. So the more we listen back, the more we’re gonna know what to change.

[00:58:54] Josh: Gosh, self-awareness. Self-awareness really is the key. To pinpointing all the challenges that get ever.

[00:59:02] Josh: Right. When it comes to, it really is. Dang it. I said, right. Oh no, . What a way to end off the podcast after I railed on about saying Right. .

[00:59:13] Karen: It happens to the best of us. All right. We’re

[00:59:15] Josh: gonna end more relatable. Yeah. We’re gonna end it now before I start saying Right. Left them left and right. All right. Okay.

[00:59:20] Josh: All right, Karen, thank you so much for your time. This was super fun, .

[00:59:23] Karen: Bye, Josh. Thank you as well.

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